Clone Wars TCW Has Ruined the Villians

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Garrett Atkins, Mar 30, 2013.

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  1. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

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    My point is that Vader's capacity for love doesn't change the fact that Luke was, for all intents and purposes, a total stranger. Or, being more accurate, a dangerous enemy responsible for causing the Empire a great deal of grief, whom Vader has tried to kill before without hesitation, etc. Yet the presence of consanguinity was enough to countermand two decades of Sith indoctrination and behavioral conditioning.

    Maul's "affection" for Savage, to whatever extent, isn't impossible in light of that.
  2. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    Nature vs. nurture I guess.

    Are psychopaths raised to be such or are they born that way?

    Maul could have been taught to hate and only think about #1 for his entire life, but that doesn't mean that the emotions that Sidious tried to suppress won't bleed through under the right conditions. I mean is it possible to raise a kid in such a way to ensure that he will never laugh or smile? Those are things we do as babies, you just react to certain stimuli in such a way, you don't have to even think about it. In the highly unethical and hypothetical scenario that someone wanted to conduct an experiment in which they abused a child for the first 20 years of its life, is there any way to ensure that kid will never laugh or come to find something humorous as a gut reaction? Especially when the abusive person - and therefore negative reinforcement - is removed from the picture?

    Infants form attachments too and probably experience what we come to call love later. OK, so you try to suppress such an emotion through warped logic and negative reinforcement, who's to say that Maul, despite 20 years of effort to break him of certain habits won't experience those emotions anyway?

    To lack the capacity for compassion is generally associated with psychopaths. Are those born or made?
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Apr 6, 2013
  3. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

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    @TaradosGon , when I complete my conquest of Lucasfilm, we will end this destructive conflict and bring order to the canon.
    Last edited by Sable_Hart, Apr 6, 2013
  4. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

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    But he was taught well about love and how to love, even if this person is a stranger to him since his childhood, he still mourn for the pain of his love's death after he became Vader. So when Luke showed love to him, he started to change. He knew what love feels like and how to reply love.

    Maul was never taught about love, but only hate and everything a Sith would have to know. Like many other Sith, he shouldn't be able to understand love like others.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Apr 6, 2013
  5. K'Kruhk Jedi Grand Master

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    No, Yoda drew with Sidious. He didn't lose.
  6. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

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    In the novel of RotS he lost.
  7. K'Kruhk Jedi Grand Master

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    Well if there's a conflict between the two, movie>novel. And the movie shows that Yoda didn't outright lose the duel.
  8. JackG Force Ghost

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    I don't think the film shows Sidious to have been equalled by Yoda; Yoda is the one fleeing, not Sidious. And if Yoda was on par with Sidious, why not try and kill him later on? Yoda says it best himself:
    Last edited by JackG, Apr 7, 2013
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  9. K'Kruhk Jedi Grand Master

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    In that sense he was talking about his objective 'destroy the Sith, we must'.

    But as a duel overall, I think it was a draw. Neither side could gain the advantage, neither was captured or killed, and in the end it was eventually Yoda who overpowered Sidious with his own Force lightning.

    As for why he didn't try and kill him later on, there are several factors for that. One of which is that he hasn't got his weapon anymore.
  10. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    IMO it's like asking if Ned Stark or Jamie Lannister won in their duel. Well, Ned clearly lost due to the interference of one of the latter's men crippling him, but it's not exactly a duel anymore when someone intervenes like that. So it depends how you look at it. Yoda clearly failed in his mission, but I don't think that's the same as losing the duel itself. Palpatine only needed to maintain the status quo (not die) to have victory, Yoda needed to kill Palpatine to have victory. Both walked away alive - maintaining the status quo - such that Yoda did fail, but I don't believe he lost the duel - he wasn't overpowered or anything, no moreso than Palpatine was. But Mas Amedda left and returned with soldiers. Had Yoda stuck around the duel would have become a slaughter.

    Did Asajj lose her duel with Grievous? She definitely had to flee and failed. But Grievous also broke the implied agreement between the two to have a duel to decide the fate of the Dathomir Witches. I would say Asajj actually had the upper hand in the duel. It's just that Grievous "cheated."
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Apr 7, 2013
  11. Ani501st Jedi Master

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    I disagree, TCW has shown Grievous just like he is in ROTS : a coward who cannot really beat a jedi knight.
    In my opinion, TCW has shown the vilains just like they are in the movies.
    Last edited by Ani501st, Apr 7, 2013
  12. General Immodet Jedi Grand Master

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    I think Grievous was not really a coward. In ROTS the Jedi had killed Dooku, his ship was being blasted to pieces and he had to face two Jedi alone.
    Him leaving the ship and crushing the glass of the bridge was a very well-thought move.
    Later on, he has no choice but to run from Obi-Wan since he is the most important military separatist leader.
    When an assassination attempt is made on a president, the president is immediately evacuated. So, did Grievous evacuate himself. ;)
  13. Ani501st Jedi Master

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    The president is not a warrior, Grievous is.
  14. General Immodet Jedi Grand Master

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    If Grievous died, all was lost. The CIS then fell under control of Nute Gunray who did not have a clue about warfare.
    By the way, maybe Kenobi really was more of challenge than most of the other Jedi were.
    Maybe Grievous was still suffering from teh injuries he suffered during the Battle of Coruscant? Cough. Cough.
  15. Ani501st Jedi Master

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    Poggle The Lesser or Wat Tambor had a clue about warfare ( or a clue of how being captured in a battle ) at least.
    Warriors have honor but Grievous even if he was a separatist leader, he also was a warrior and he did not have the honor to fight Obi-Wan and Anakin. I think he only cares about his life and his reputation has been made on lies.
    Last edited by Ani501st, Apr 7, 2013
  16. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    Lucas calls him a coward, Mace calls him a coward, etc.

    Though he doesn't fit with the way I perceive a coward to be.

    I associate the word "coward" with a lack of bravery, to be paralyzed by fear, to be afraid of danger, etc.

    Grievous constantly puts himself in danger. Yes, he runs, but he doesn't just bolt at the first sign of danger, he generally runs when he's outmatched. His ship is about to blow up, and he escapes. He's being flanked by two Jedi and escapes. The Republic army shows up on Utapau and Grievous is disarmed and he tries to flee. What is cowardly about those? Anakin in the bonus content footage orders his own troops to fall back when they lose their momentum, Luke flees the Death Star, the Rebels flee Hoth, are they all cowards? I wouldn't think so.

    Yeah, there's the notion that the Captain should be the last one off a sinking ship and should aid in getting his men to safety first. So in that sense Grievous looks like a coward when he's the first one to bolt to an escape pod, pushing his subordinates out of the way. But they also pretty much established that in the SW universe that droids are just perceived by many to be little more than tools. Grievous isn't going to sit there and evacuate toasters. We never really saw him interact with organic subordinates.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Apr 7, 2013
  17. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

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    He fled on Utapau because he thought he could win either way. If he got to his ship, he could shoot Kenobi out of the sky. Or continue the duel there. He obviously outmatched Obi-Wan in strength.
  18. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

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    Jedi typically conduct themselves with reckless bravery and disregard for their own safety. Compared to that, the likes of Grievous would be cowardly. But none of them really qualify for the term.
  19. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

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    After he got Force Crushed on the chest by Mace Windu, why people always forget it?[face_dunno]
  20. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    Because that's likely been retconned away. That used to be the excuse for why he coughed, but now that's obviously not the case. In ROTS itself, his chest looks fine moments later when he returns to the Invisible Hand. And lastly, TCW takes place before his chest was ever crushed, so that can no longer be used as an excuse for his ineffective fighting.
  21. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

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    No, nothing in TCW retconned it because TCW never showed GG's assault to kidnap Palpatine.

    It clearly damaged his organ inside his body, just the outside was fixed.
  22. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    Nothing retconned that his chest was crushed (though it's conspicuous that in the midst of a naval battle over Coruscant to kidnap Palpatine and escape ASAP, that the military commander of the CIS is going to go have his chest plate fixed).

    However, it has been retconned that having his chest crushed has nothing to do with his cough (he had his cough all along now).

    It also did not affect his fighting abilities as he fights no worse in ROTS than he does in TCW.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Apr 7, 2013
  23. K'Kruhk Jedi Grand Master

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    Since it wasn't shown in Labyrinth of Evil I'm not sure it was even canon pre-TCW.

    Anyway, the Force crush did nothing of significance to Grievous. He moved around perfectly well in ROTS.
  24. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

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    So his wound remains, and it made his cough worse, I remember someplace said the Force Crush made his cough worse. It did have effect on him.

    It didn't? He once could move fast like hell when he was fighting, dodge Force Push from Mundi and Shaak Tii, even use his feet to control the Lightsaber and use his feet to grab the enemy, do you see that in RotS?
  25. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

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    If we use LoE and RotS novel then it's also clear, he could even last quite a few rounds against Mace Windu's Vaapad and make counterattack against it, killed 4 Jedi knights around Palpatine like it was nothing. Windu also said Obi Wan had the best chance against him.



    Compare to this, are you still saying it's perfectly well?
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