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TCW is a very poor telling of a star wars story.

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by DarthVendictivis, Feb 12, 2013.

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  1. Mia Mesharad

    Mia Mesharad Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Vizsla thinks he's an honorable champion. It doesn't matter to him that everyone else in Mandalorian culture's given up that version of honor more than a thousand years ago. And as far as he's concerned, the New Mandalorians aren't his people. They're culture-traitors, and deserve whatever they get.
     
    V-2 likes this.
  2. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    Wait, he was deceiving all people on Mandalore, not just Satine. That's no way close to honorable at all.

    Maul is not his people either, why should he think about honor when he asked for a duel?
     
  3. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    Yeah, Honor, after he worked with the Hutts, the Black Sun and the Sith(is there anything more dishonorable than these guys?), use them to threat his own people then deceive his own people, that's probably the last thing we will link with honor, then how come suddenly he made the 180 degree change?

    Why he couldn't trust others? Even Luke didn't make him jump out in EP V and beat him.
     
  4. Mia Mesharad

    Mia Mesharad Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Vizsla wasn't deceiving all of the people on Mandalore, just the New Mandalorians. In his eyes, these people are not legitimate Mandalorians. They don't follow the tenets of the culture: they don't wear armor, they don't speak the language, they don't defend themselves. In the Mandalorian culture, especially as Vizsla and his Death Watch radicals see it, that makes them dar'manda—soulless, not true Mandalorian—and all collateral damage is fair game. It's not honorable in any sense that we understand, it's not honorable by contemporary Mandalorian society, whether New Mandalorian or warrior clan. But it is honorable to the old Crusaders, and the Death Watch who have fashioned themselves after them. Values dissonance on a massive scale.

    The tale of Mandalore the Indomitable and Ulic Qel-Droma. It happened in the past. A Sith Lord challenged the Mandalore, and Mandalore rose to the challenge regardless. If Vizsla is to match the icon of the past he's trying to revive, he has to prove himself Indomitable's equal. That's the mindset there.
     
  5. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    No, he was deceiving the whole planet, only his Death Watch knew the secrets.

    Old Mandalorians also don't use this kind of trick on their own people, nor do they work with Hutts or crime organization to threaten their own people, or you can name one?

    Ulic is a different story.

    He had Exar Kun's Sith Brotherhood and Krath behind him, if Mandalore the Indomitable refused it could get into big struggle. But Maul had nobody in support at that time, he could easily get shot off. Also he's not some dirty guy who tricked his people with criminal organizations.
     
  6. Mia Mesharad

    Mia Mesharad Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 2, 2012
    The two-pronged coup of sending in the Shadow Collective's criminals to attack only for Death Watch to appear and defend—that was a deception perpetrated against the New Mandalorian people. While the warrior clans did not know the details of Vizsla and Maul's scheme, they're not in a position where knowing would matter, as the takeover of Sundari doesn't concern them at this time.

    Out-of-universe: the entire construct of the duel between a Sith Lord (Ulic/Maul) and a Mand'alor (Indomitable/Vizsla) for control of Mandalorian warriors (Crusaders/Death Watch) is a wholesale reference to Ulic and the Tales of the Jedi comics.

    In-universe: I think people forget just how small the armies of the Krath and the Sith Brotherhood were at the time. The Crusaders would've curbstomped them all if it had come to all out combat—they were conquering entire worlds at the time with their forces alone—and it was only after Ulic had won over Indomitable's loyalty in combat, gaining the Crusaders as fighting allies, that Kun and Qel-Droma truly had a fighting force.
     
    AkashKedavra_93 likes this.
  7. General Immodet

    General Immodet Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 5, 2012
    I still think the Krath made up the largest part of Kun's army.
    The Mandalorians and the Massassi probably were not seen on every battlefield, the Krath were.
     
  8. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Master star 5

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    Dec 10, 2012
    What do your words mean? What's your first language, let's talk in that instead. It might make some sense.
     
    CT-867-5309 likes this.
  9. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    No, it was mentioned as "people of Mandalore" a few times. Not just the New Mandalorians.

    Krath took over Empress Teta System before Exar Kun came with his brotherhood and Massassi, I don't see how could the Crusaders curbstomp them.
     
  10. Mia Mesharad

    Mia Mesharad Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 2, 2012
    The New Mandalorians are people of Mandalore. But they're not the only people of Mandalore. The only place we ever see is Sundari, the only people we ever see are the blonde, white, huiman New Mandalorians.

    It's true, the Krath were powerful. And Kun brought a pretty big load of Massassi to the table, something like ~30 fallen Jedi, and Mecrosa warriors. But the Crusaders effectively had the entire Taung race, not to mention the Jakelians, many Mandallian Giants, liberated slaves from the Iskalloni...the list goes on and on. They had conquered more than a dozen systems compared to the Krath's one, and were capable of killing off entire species, as they did with the Tlonians, Fenelar, Basiliskans, and Kuarans. If they're killing entire races, I really can't objectively see how they wouldn't roll right over a couple hundred guys at most.
     
    AkashKedavra_93 likes this.
  11. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    Yes, that's what I'm saying, Vizsla tricked all Mandalorian people, he named himself the new Mandalore, that of course means he took control over the whole Mandalore system. Nowhere said only New Mandaloirans are blonde.

    No, beside Mandalore, they conquered Iskadrell, Gargon, Shogun and a few more planets that's all.

    What do you mean a couple hundred guys? Kun had a whole system's resource and people, that's at least billions of people to use. Plus the dark Jedi, the army of Massassi, his new Sith creation and those war droids Krath created, I don't see where the Mandalorians could roll over them.
     
  12. GGrievous

    GGrievous Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2005
    In a series where the Republic and Jedi win 99.9% of the time, the people must be confused or haven't had time to notice the Republic propaganda. Anti-Jedi and clone movements would be the last thing on their minds.
     
  13. Spazmatron

    Spazmatron Jedi Padawan star 3

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    Sep 19, 2012
    Yeah I wish that we could see the CIS win for once...
     
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  14. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    Actually the Mandalorians only ambushed the Krath when they were focusing on the Republic, then Exar Kun didn't even response to it, Ulic simply handled it and asked them to surrender.
     
  15. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Master star 5

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    Dec 10, 2012
    Sorry but are we holding up Exar Kun as an example of good story telling now?
     
  16. TrandoJedi

    TrandoJedi Jedi Master star 4

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    May 4, 2011
    It would be interesting to see the CIS win due to a critical error on the Jedi's part which costs many lives of Clones, civilians, and Jedi alike.
     
  17. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    Back to the topic
    1. Vizsla's action in one episode does not add up.
    2. Sidious didn't even go by himself in EP V after he sensed Luke, not even fighting Luke directly before Vader was beaten in EP VI, why would he try that against Maul?
     
  18. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Master star 5

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    Dec 10, 2012
    1. It does to a lot of people who have kindly and patiently explained their reasoning to you on multiple occasions.
    2. You have hindsight bias, plus Luke Skywalker wasn't Sid's former apprentice presumed dead, in the process of forging a new empire for himself, armed with secrets that could destroy Sid's master plan to create the galactic empire, which was by then already in existence.
     
  19. Spazmatron

    Spazmatron Jedi Padawan star 3

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    Sep 19, 2012
    Sidious sent Vader to do his bidding in episode V and VI for a number of reasons. First of all hes the apprentice, and second of all Vader was in charge of hunting down the rebels, and Luke not only happened to be one of those rebels, but his own son. That is why Vader was the one to come into contact with Luke.

    Sidious didn't sent Dooku because not only would the separatists be involved with mandalore (Which palps might not have wanted), Maul and Savage could have potentially overpowered and killed Dooku which would have been another bad thing for Sidious, as Anakin had not been ready to convert to the darkside yet. In episode V and VI, Vader was expendable because Luke could have been the followup to Vader, whereas Maul and Savage would just betray Sids for their own power. As Sidious said "Too unfortunate you are attempting to deceive me". Therefore he knew that Maul would not be loyal.
     
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  20. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    And Dooku is also his apprentice in PT, Luke is something could "destroy him", that's a much bigger threat than Maul. Also Sidious' idea was not trying to turn Luke at first.

    No, Sidious let the Mandalorians joined CIS in current canon and betrayed them later.


    What? Who said Dooku must go by himself alone? He got tons of minions to use, the Maul brothers couldn't even take down a few bounty hunters plus Jabba's guards.

    No, watch EP V again, Sidious was not trying to turn Luke at first, it was Vader's idea.

    1. Honor? I also explained.
    2. Luke wasn't his former apprentice, he was something Sidious thought "could destroy us both", that's a much bigger threat than Maul, who was a lot weaker than him and afraid of him. As for Sidious, the worst thing that could happen to his plan, is expose himself, and his action put great risk on that.
     
  21. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Master star 5

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    Dec 10, 2012
    The worst thing that could happen is for Maul to expose Sidious, or other aspects of the Sith grand plan. He couldn't trust Dooku or Maul together, literally nobody else in the galaxy was qualified to deal with Maul. It would have been incredibly stupid for Sid to either leave Maul to it, or to send Dooku. Why don't you understand that?
     
  22. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    Dooku already knew Sidious' identity. And he hates Maul for obvious reason, why would Sidious not trust him if he could trust Vader to deal with Luke?
     
  23. InterestingLurker

    InterestingLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 15, 2011
    I think you should stop arguing with him; its a waste of finger strength(and patience).
     
    AkashKedavra_93 likes this.
  24. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Master star 5

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    Dec 10, 2012
    You're probably right.
     
    AkashKedavra_93 likes this.
  25. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 21, 2012
    Something like this could be better.
     
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