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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

TV Discussion TCW & Rebels Now Officially Canon, EU Not Canon

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Completed Shows' started by Narutakikun, Apr 25, 2014.

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  1. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Apr 29, 2011
    I don't think the official announcement referred to it as Legends, so where did you get that from?
     
  2. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    It's been part of the EU since it came out as have the tie-in books, comics and games.
     
  3. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    I thought the Legends branding only applied to old novels that are continuing to be published, despite being non-canon. I'm unaware of it being applied to TCW or games.

    I.E. something can still be non-canon (anything that is not Rebels, TCW or the films) and still not fall under the Legends banner.

    From the Starwars.com announcement

    Another source

    I kind of got the vibe that the Legends banner was a Del Rey specific thing to segregate those tales that are non-canon from the new canon books going forward. I don't see anything that suggest that the Legends banner was going to apply to Dark Horse or games, and definitely not TCW.
     
  4. The Shadow Emperor

    The Shadow Emperor Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 29, 2012
    The tie-in books, comics and games are EU, but not the show itself.
     
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  5. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    From what I understand Legends is for everything from 1977 to 2014. TCW included. TCW has been included in the books and comics since 2008. Timelines on Wookiepedia has it under both. Not sure about the games I suppose.
    There are four tie-in novels for TCW that don't count for the future but did for Legends. Pretty stupid to count the books but not the show.
     
  6. Orrelios

    Orrelios Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 21, 2005
    Exactly. That's essentially what I meant; for instance, if Chata Hyoki would also appear in some webcomics or a book or two, then I would have an easier time to see why the article for the character would be labeled as Legends.

    As it stands right now, I'm assuming they are just mass-labeling TCW articles as Legends so that they can go through them all and take away the Legends status of articles of characters that have appeared in TCW (the show only) or split them up in the canon/Legends fashion like some other more major articles have been.
     
  7. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Well thank god if TCW isn't part of the EU if true. Much more manageable under the 02-05 series. They never did get around to to tying in everything like they said they would. Kind of stupid though to just have the tie-ins but not the series its based on.
    Not that I count it anyway in the EU.
     
  8. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    As far as I can tell, Wookieepedia is using "Legends" as a synonym for "non canon," when I see nothing from the official announcement of the re-branding of books to justify "Legends" being used as a blanket colloquialism for ALL non-canon works. To my knowledge, if I walk into a Best Buy and go through their DVD and video game selections, I'm not going to see The Old Republic with a "Legends" banner across the top, nor will I see it across the top of TCW Season DVDs. The announcement refers to books like Heir to the Empire being rebranded as Legends, while new books like Tarkin, will not carry this branding.

    The common denominator is that these are all books by Del Rey. Wookieepedia has several covers of Del Rey books that have been adorned now with the "Legends" banner.

    I don't see "Legends" being used to distinguish any work not published by Del Rey.

    Granted, I am fallible, so I am more than willing to acknowledge that I am wrong, should any credible source refer to games or Dark Horse comics as "Legends" as well. But in the absence of any source, it just looks like Wookieepedia is being edited by people that have jumped to the conclusion that Legends is all encompassing of that which is not canon. When it seems there are many non-canon works (i.e. non-Del Rey works) that will not bear a Legends banner.
     
  9. The Shadow Emperor

    The Shadow Emperor Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 29, 2012
    I agree with you, but TCW--the show--was created directly with input from George Lucas. The article on Starwars.com stated that content that only content that Lucas created is considered the unequivocal canon for the Star Wars universe. Lucas didn't have a hand in creating the tie-in material so it isn't considered canon anymore.

    Of course Wookieepedia would try to integrate TCW into their timelines. They've tried to reconcile as much as possible for the longest time with varying degrees of success. As to whether TCW should be included in the Legends version of the articles, that's kind of ambiguous at this point. I don't see the point in removing it myself, considering how EU material has already been changed and adapted to fit with what's been established in the show. Going back in and removing it after all the effort to make things fit would just cause more trouble than it's worth, and plus it'd leave massive holes in many characters' histories.

    I'm thinking they'll go back and split all articles into canon/Legends versions, so Legends articles link to other Legends material while Canon articles only link to the canon versions of the articles. But yeah, with characters like Hyoki it does seem a little redundant.
     
  10. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Apr 29, 2011
    The official announcement states that TCW television series is considered part of the same canon as the films, unlike Legends.
     
  11. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Before the announcement though it was between the EU and the movies. Still EU, had precedent over the EU but not movie level yet. OR at least according to the G-Canon, T-Canon, C-Canon thing.
     
  12. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Apr 29, 2011
    I disagree about the status of TCW television series before the announcement, but that is irrelevant now. Since the announcement of Legends, TCW television series has been part of the highest canon along with the films, not "both canon and Legends."
     
  13. Vader'sGoodHand

    Vader'sGoodHand Jedi Master star 3

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    Apr 1, 2014
    I'm assuming that the Legends banner will only have books, comics etc material listed under it. In the Canon section it will strictly have information pertaining to the character's development on the show only correct?

    Ex: Obi-wan would have a history spanning from ANH-TCW (Rebels too?) specifcally taken from the movies and the show which would be in the Canon section. All the outside books and stories would fall under Legends tab.

    Is that why the tabs are there?
     
  14. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    If they included everything in one page for someone like say Luke Skywalker there would be way too much info to sift through.
    The EU stuff from 1977 to 2014 is Legends, TCW, Rebels, the ST and whatever else comes out (including books and comics) after that will be Canon.
    Since the EU from 1977 to 2014 had its own arc from what is coming with the ST they have to be separate. The EU goes on after ROTJ to 45 years after on one plot line. The ST is set 30 years after ROTJ in a whole other timeline. Don't want to confuse people.

    Dark Lord Tarkas Agree to disagree but from what I understand since TCW came out Pre-ST announcement while the EU was still ongoing it counts for both and what the canon system meant.
     
  15. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Apr 29, 2011
    What exactly are you agreeing to disagree on? Like I already said, there's no point in arguing over TCW's canon/EU status before the announcement, so that's fine. But TCW's canon/EU status now is clearly defined in the official announcement:

    https://starwars.com/news/the-legendary-star-wars-expanded-universe-turns-a-new-page.html
     
  16. Dameron

    Dameron Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 8, 2014
    I think the take that @Dark Lord Tarkas and TaradosGon have on this is the most straightforward and the most accountable to reality. What counts is the six films and the Clone Wars, and various other things to be released in the future. Everything else is nothing. Doesn't matter if it's Heir to the Empire, a mobile game, the instructions for a Lego starfighter, or a mind-corroding fanfic I wrote 10 minutes ago -- it all has the same meaning: zero. For a work to "count as Legends," it's just... it isn't anything. There's no prize to get. A post-ROTJ Legends novel that used to be the highest authority on its subject now has exactly the same canon weight as anything you or I might write. The difference between a Legends book and a non-Legends game is just a marketing difference. Canon-wise, there is no distinction. It's more... intellectually honest, in a way.
     
  17. yodafan1031

    yodafan1031 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Apr 15, 2014
    I just have to admit (and I'm not usually one to do so) that I am so damn confused when it comes to canon and non-canon. At least for now. And frankly these types of arguments don't help, evn though they are pretty much inevitable. Arguemtns may not be the right word...discussions. As I've said to others in this forum, I'm just going to enjoy all the content we are soon to get.
     
  18. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Yes. TCW, Rebels, the ST and everything else that comes out from now on is canon.
    The EU is not canon. However when TCW was coming out, the EU was still a thing and TCW was integrated into the EU like with certain plot points (Mortis in FOTJ). So does TCW still count under both? I'd love to say no but am pretty sure TCW is still both.
     
  19. darkchrono

    darkchrono Jedi Master star 4

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    May 23, 2005

    A lot of posters here are making it seem much more complicated than it really is. It's actually a much more simple system now then it was before. As of now at this point all that counts as canon is the movies and the TCW television show (in essence the things that Lucas worked on). Everything else that is out thereic at this current time is considered 'Legends.'

    Now as soon as Disney starts releasing its own EU material (which is everything released after this point) it will all have the same canon level as the movies and TCW. So all books, comics, etc...released after this point will be considered one canon but everything released prior to this point is considered 'Legends.'

    Don't let all these posters saying if this and this is canon or this and this should be canon confuse you. The simple answer is the correct one in that everything but TCW and the movies released up to this point is 'Legends' and everything released after this point will be canon along with TCW and the movies.
     
  20. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    Well, all they've said about canon is that it consists of the "immovable objects" of the six films and TCW. Meaning, even if an author comes in that doesn't like the fact that Maul was resurrected, or hates the PT, it's tough luck for them. They can't overwrite these events. Things like Knights of the Old Republic and Shadows of the Empire, are non-canon to the extent that hey can be overwritten, but that doesn't mean they will be.

    It just seems like the easiest short term solution for them to render everything non-canon. That way they don't have to make a decision as to what stories they need to adhere to right now, instead they can wait, make their movies and perhaps resurrect some stories as canon, if they feel like they are a good fit.

    Or as with the Abrams Star Trek universe, IDW makes Star Trek comics that tie into the films, and one series is overseen by one of the writers for the films and pretty much adapts episodes from TOS into the new timeline with the new crew.

    E.G. here's the description for Star Trek: Ongoing #12

    And Star Trek: Ongoing #15


    It might be worthwhile for Star Wars to do something similar, in that if there are popular characters or tales that just don't fit with what the Story Group wants to do, perhaps they can re-imagine those tales in a way that is compatible.
     
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  21. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Apr 29, 2011
    TCW television series is canon, not Legends. TCW comics, video games, etc. as well as EU that tied into certain concepts that came from TCW are all Legends, not canon.
     
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  22. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    I can see a lot of Legends branded books becoming canon again indirectly, or at least elements of them. When you have people like James Luceno continuing to write these future Star Wars books like Tarkin (and I'd imagine that he'd continue to write Star Wars novels beyond that), what do they think is going to happen?

    They had this guy write novels that are now branded as "Legends." Having him continue to write future Star Wars works seems like an opportunity to validate stuff he had previously written and cement it in continuity. The Plagueis novel may never be released free of the "Legends" banner again, but what's to stop the author of said novel from giving nods to his previous ideas in future works in the same property? E.G. name dropping Damask Holdings in some tangential way in Tarkin, etc.
     
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  23. darkchrono

    darkchrono Jedi Master star 4

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    May 23, 2005

    Even though all EU is considered Legends I think the only books that are definitely being thrown off the shelves at this point in time is the post ROTJ stuff. Everything else is fairly safe for the tme being. Disney most likely will stay in the post ROTJ era for the next ten to fifteen years before even thinking about finding a new time period to tell stories in. Only thing pre- ROTJ fans probably have to worry about overwriting the stuff they like are the spinoff movies and the spinoff flicks likely won't be extremely deep movies anyways that will interfere with many already existing stories.
     
  24. Dameron

    Dameron Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 8, 2014

    A nod to a previous idea isn't going to fool anybody into thinking the actual events of a specific previous story are canon. It's like when a reference from the mainstream Marvel universe shows up in Ultimate Marvel or the movies. No one thinks, "Well that thing they just said originated from Stilt-Man 7,935, so therefore that story must have happened in the past of this movie!" I'm fine with such references being made; I guess the Clone Wars is full of name-drops that I don't read enough EU to recognize. But that's not going to re-canonize a specific Legends story through the back door. It just makes the new canon resemble the old one to the extent that there is such a thing as a Damask Holdings in both timelines.
     
  25. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    People are getting too hung up on the word "canon" just because something can be ignored by the film makers, doesn't mean it will.

    I've used the example of Roberto Orci, screenwriter for the new Star Trek films. He also oversees the comics. The films are canon, while it's official policy that nothing off screen is canon. But why would Roberto Orci have something written in the comics and then completely ignore it in the films? Why would he not hold himself to his own ideas, even if he's not obligated to?

    My point is that it's stupid to approach Luceno and say "hey man, we're calling do overs. We're wiping the EU clean and we want you to help build the new EU, but you can't use any of your ideas from before, come up with new ones."

    That's like rebooting the films themselves and having Lucas do it. If you want a completely different vision, don't use the same people. I can see them wiping post-ROTJ continuity clean out of necessity, and perhaps even things like Darth Bane's story (should they ever make a spinoff about the defeat of the Sith 1,000 years before TPM).

    But there is just so much that would work fine to be left alone, and I would think using recycled authors is going to breed the trend that they are going to want to validate their own ideas.
     
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