tell me it isn't so -- the Sanctuary?

It's okay, it was slow in here. We need this sort of stuff every once in a while. I was beginning to spam the JCC.

 

First, I just want to say that these analogies about tribes and what-not, as well as endless debates on what constitutes as a customer is pointless. Let's focus on the real issues and try to get something accomplished.


I personally know people who, in the past, have gone into the BS with olive branch extended, trying to find some common ground, hoping to ease the tension that thread permeates. While he was moderately successful in some regards (Lady Sami J was very good to communicate with as I recall), he was also shouted down from several people, including some who have posted in this thread.

I'd be curious to know who those people were. There were a couple of incidences where I thought people were unfairly shouted out of the sanctuary, but this was rare and I always dealt severely with bashers who mistreated people in that thread. In any event, if you don't feel comfortable disclosing more details in this thread, feel free to PM me.


"if you're offended or annoyed it's only because you chose to be."

And how is it that the same thing can't be said for the closing down of it? It all works both ways.

Not really. The sanctuary in-and-of-itself did not force anyone to do or not to do anything. The lack of the sanctuary does force an action on the interested parties, so I can see the point of view they are trying to express in that regards.


"Nobody pays to post here."

Hey! I want my 10 grand back Stryphe!

Look, do you want to be paid up with the right mods or not?


Because the timing of the BS closure was very interesting.

'Interesting', how so?


But what about his artistic and creative decisions? Where's the line in that? What about if we just didn't address him at all? Maybe something like the "films,not fans" rule?

Rhonda, could you site maybe a couple of specifics on this, perhaps a couple of examples from the sanctuary, so we get a better understand of what you mean?


Again, I'd only support if it was fair, meaning all nine films.

Oh, man, no way I'd support a thread bashing episode VII - IX.


Wait, you mean the BS allowed for attacks on the makers and actors of the PT? So I could've gone in there and said that Lucas is a fracking **** **** and gotten away with it?

STRILO AND STRYPHE RE-OPEN THAT THREAD RIGHT NOW!

You had your chance

 

No, I still like it. You can find better examples of my complete gushing for ROTS in the Sanctuary if you look.




Stryphe - Go check your emails - because I never responded to your proposal.

 

stryphe:
I'm not sure it's accurate, but it's not off by much. For every LSBH, Binary and gez, there was one Ceejay (and come on, when he was talking ROTJ thru ROTS all he did was post hate. There's nothing else to call that brand of bashing).

I had some big arguments with ceejay over the years, but I'd have to add that he also spent a lot of time gushing about LOTR, Matrix etc.
His biggest fault was his inability to use paragraphs!

Technically, I did. Why? Because some people crossed the line (the line of reason) with their bashing and I was well past tired of it. I never had a problem with the type of bashing that you do, gez. My "get a life" post wasn't directed at you or other bashers like you. People were coming in and making comparsion about how it's a "war" and bashing is the tool to fight an enemy.

That was pretty rare and I honestly never took those posts seriously, it just sounded like someone letting off steam, it?s not as if it could mean anything , they were hardly going to go and storm the ranch . (we haven?t got all the equipment ready yet anyway)

"So.... I don't get it, you want us to tell this 1/3rd to stop bashing so much? "

Not to bash less, to stop hating so much, and yes, I did expect that.

I remember at times you?d say it was going too far to use words like hate, and I also remember people agreeing with you
But we?ve all used the term ? I hate David Letterman, I hate Top Gun .
Do we have to be careful not to use the word hate because it makes us ?hateful? now ?

And the problem with ?citizen-modding? is that you never know what?s going to happen, I defended someone once and a mod rather tersely told me that I didn?t need to defend that person, and at other times I?ve seen people try and diffuse a situation very politely only to be told to leave the modding to the mods etc. You just don?t know, so you think ? bollocks to it.
As I say ? the ?hate? posts didn?t bother me, but that didn?t mean I just went along with anything, occassionaly someone would call someone a troll who wasn?t and I?d stick up for them, others would too.

And I?d have to point out ? the quantity of bashing is less now than it was a couple of years ago ? back when we were on the tpm board we wanted to talk about other stuff we liked but couldn?t unless we related it back to how bad tpm was, so when we got the community thread we could then talk about other stuff without even bashing the PT . I also remember the Luca$$ thing being an issue, we were asked to tone it down, we did, we also toned down the remarks about his appearance .

The people in the sanctuary were all so wrapped up in protecting and projecting freedom of speech that you were blinded to the hatred that tainted that thread. What I expect you guys to do was have some perspective. That was one of my more valuable lessons of last year, which is why I finally decided to call a few people out with my "get a life" quote, which everyone misquotes anyway.

Well my perspective is that these are just posts about movies on a message board, the ?hate? posts weren?t that often and they were countered.
Hate towards a movie is just not a big issue, it's just a movie.

What I remember is about every couple of months you?d come in and go ballistic because someone had broke the rules ? they?d argued with a troll or spoke about fans etc. now these were just rules that get broken wherever you are, and I?d say that the sanct?s average is less than elsewhere.
But you seemed to act as if any rule breaking was going to bring down the apocalypse . I figured ? ?well we?re only human, people are going to break the rules from time to time, we all know this, so what?s it all about?? I figured you were feeling the pressure, and that you were just getting fond of the PT again and moving away from bashing, but I also wondered if you were just looking for a way out, and looking for a way to blame us .
For what it?s worth that?s ^ what I was thinking.

Are we supposed to do less bas

 

Why certainly.

battlewars posted:
**** LUCAS AND EVERYONE ELSE BORN RICH, **** YOU!

Binary Sunset posted:
But then suddenly at the end of ROTJ they are confronted by Hayden's gimpy mug: "What the hell...?"


Just upon glancing in. I think most criticsm of Lucas' work would be just like the criticsm of an author's work, but anytime we get this personal it's not good form. Comments like these aren't really conducive to debate and discussion.

 

I'm very much like Jon/E_V here: for some reason i've come into this thread and read just the last page. Perhaps the thread is the calling out the CT regulars

I don't understand why there needs to be a new thread in either forum but seems I rarely visit PT, i'll just reference the CT.

There are threads in CT for criticism of every movie in the trilogy, for criticism of the Special Editions and the DVD editions as well as threads discussing future changes for future decisions and what people would have changed with the Original Versions. Not to mention threads on criticism of Lucas, the actors and the crew. There are also numerous threads for what people liked about every movie and appreciation threads for those who made the movies.

Why all of a sudden do we need another thread when users could just as easily post their positive or negative remarks in the existing threads?

If someone doesn't like something, they should be able to say so without fear of personal attack in one of those threads. They should also be willing to be open to discussion on their thoughts and others or at least be aware that not everyone is going to agree with them.

There's nothing wrong with the CT forum and I'm sure people who dislike the OT or the SE etc would also agree with me. The forum has an excellent and open minded moderating team that are able to deal apporpriately with any over the top users on either side of the discussion.

 

First, I just want to say that these analogies about tribes and what-not, as well as endless debates on what constitutes as a customer is pointless. Let's focus on the real issues and try to get something accomplished.
it may be pointless to you...
personally, i think this is the real issue.
trying to get a grasp of how certain individuals feel, is never pointless.
how can it ever be?

to me this is about understanding how a decision affects a group of people.
not about getting the thread re-opened.

so by gaining a greater understanding of the decision and how it affects people, this sort of thing can be avoided in the future.
cause that should be the goal right?
however, the decision has been made. for better or worse.


going on and on about these analogies would be pointless i guess, so i have no desire to do that.
i just hope they enabled some people to see this situation from a different perspective.
that was the whole point.

 

True the decision was made. Was it made without warning? No. Was it made with no choice or input by the members of the Sanctuary? Yes.

To those that say the santuary is fulll of hate, they are wrong. We love star wars passionately, that is why we can't stand it when it is tainted and ruined.

To those who say, they're just movies. They are. So it is impossible to hurt a movie's feelings, now, is it?

To those who say it's time to move on. I've said this before, that if this is true then the PT forum, the CT forum should be shut down. That leaves city boards, comics, games and community, and of course the upcoming tv show. The movies are done, time to move on, no need to talk about any of it anymore. Sounds insane, huh? Yet the santuary must move on.

We are told to be critical but objective. That is an oxymoron. Criticism is a subjective opinion.

 

Yes it is impossible to hurt a movies feelings as a movie lacks the synapses required to feel hurt.


Is it impossible to hurt a fans feelings for taking away what to me appears to be a social club of critisim in the Sanctuary?

No it's not. However they have provided you with a new location to complain but to my understanding they just want you to validate your complaint with more than just a "The Anakin/Padme romance in AOTC Sucks" (one of my bugbears)



Critisim is important but it's better to provide constructive critisim than destructive critisim which is what the mods are concerned with (I think).




I could also be way off the mark

 

they just want you to validate your complaint with more than just a "The Anakin/Padme romance in AOTC Sucks" (one of my bugbears)
i'm all for improving and stimulating discussion in general.
if this is the main concern, does it mean that also people who praise elements of the saga will be asked to validate their pov?

it's more positive in tone, but it really adds nothing to the discussion.
so will there be some consistency here in the best interest of improving the general discussions on these boards?

 

Great point.


If a basher is having to validate why they dislike something, a gusher should also have to validate why it is so good.



Another thing I remembered is that the BS was a haven for bashers and as a result they didn't have to justify to any great extent and it was set up as a place that gushers would avoid, just as gusher sanctuaries were avoided by bashers.


Is it safe to assume that the Golden age is the recommended place for both bashers and gushers noow that the BS and defense forces are closed?

if thats the case I would be concerned that it could devolve into anarchy as a gusher blows on about a scene that a basher dislikes.

 

You are right, there is nothing wrong with criticism. Though, I've seen some pretty hateful comments in the bashersanctuary myself (not only in the BS, also in other threads as well where bashers just stuck their heads in a what seemed like they just did it to peeve people off).

My question is: what joy comes out of tirelessly ripping a film series to shreds when you could just leave it alone, then instead talk about something that you like? Why not talk about something positive?

 

My question is: what joy comes out of tirelessly ripping a film series to shreds when you could just leave it alone, then instead talk about something that you like? Why not talk about something positive?
i think that's an irrelevant question.

personally, i don't see why the bashers don't get tired of this ritual.
what matters is that this way of expressing themselves seems important to them and their identity.

 

Personally, I don't really have a problem with the Sanctuary closing, and I had a vested interest in keeping it open for a long time.

I see these threads as plastic and evolving; discussions ranged over a large number of topics, from flattering and not-so-flattering comparisons to the OT (as well as other sci-fi and fantasy works). I see nothing inconsistent with this overall theme in the new thread, it just appears to emphasize the positive aspects of the OT (better chemistry, more believable performances, etc., etc.).

 

Thought I'd just put in my 2p. First I'd like to say thanks to Stryphe and Strilo for talking honestly about the reasons behind the decision. They didn't have to do that, but to their credit they have. I'd also like to say that I think the criticism of Strilo has gone too far, some people seem to want to make him into a scape-goat and I don't think that really gets to the real reasoning behind why the Sanctuary has been locked. It seems to me that it was a joint decision between the two moderators. Stryphe seems to have done it more half-heartedly than Strilo but that doesn't make it any less true that the decision was made between them.

I've visited the Basher Sanctuary quite a bit over the years. Quite sporadically, to be honest sometimes the hyperbolic negativity would get a bit much for me (probably this mysterious 1/3 Stryphe has mentioned). Nevertheless I've consistently returned for the smart observations and interesting debate which generally made up the Sanctuary. I made a few posts there too, they were mostly ignored but c'est la vie. There was a bit of a cliqueness to it but not as much as the social threads in the JCC. I would never think of disturbing those, even if I wanted to.

I think Stryphe's comments concerning "playing the game" are a bit odd. I mean, we're talking about a Star Wars message board, not running for the US senate. This board is supposed to be for fans to discuss the Star Wars films, both positives and negatives, when did it all suddenly become so political and why? It sounds like you're saying Stryphe that some mods have vested interests and that just sounds peculiar to me. This is only the internet after all.

As for the altering the image of the Basher I'll use a little analogy. If someone has a stereotypical viewpoint of homosexuals, whose problem is that? Should gay people change their behaviour in order to pander to the ignorant, or is it up to the homophobe to educate himself and remove his own ignorance. I'm saying it's up to the homophobe, you seem to be saying it's up to the gay. It seems from what I've read here that a lot of posters have a rather ignorant view of what the Sanctuary is/was all about. I think the responsibility lies with them to actually read the thread and dispel their own myths, rather than it is the responsibility of the Bashers to go on the PR offensive.

To be honest who cares if people don't like Cee-jay's views? They're his views. I sometimes thought people at the Sanctuary went a bit OTT (especially the attacks on Lucas I thought sometimes got a bit too personal) but no-one was forcing me to read it. I remember reading your post after the release of ROTS Stryphe and remember thinking that you sounded somehow let down. The problem was that for a lot of Bashers Star Wars died a long time ago and they'd already mourned its loss far before May 25th. I also wondered how the Sanctuary would fit in to the scheme of things once the PT had finished. But I think this new release of the O-OT on DVD shows that the Sanctuary still had a lot of life in it.

From what I understand Stryphe you felt that once you stopped moderating the board (for whatever reason) your predecessor was guaranteed to close the Sanctuary. If anyone was to do that you wanted it to be you, so that you could create a replacement thread for the regulars. Good intentions but I think that you should have talked this over with the regulars beforehand rather than suddenly announce it was happening and explain your reasons afterwards. If I were you I?d have just waited to see what happened. Give the sanctuary a bit longer even if it meant you wouldn?t be the one to close it. That's only my opinion, I'm not a mod and never will be.

Concerning the new thread, I don't think it's going to work. I was optimistic at the start and my first post stated as much. I did always enjoy hearing Bashers talk about why the OT was great rather than why the PT wasn't. The problem is people are just going to make the new thread into a bashfest whilst just putting the obligatory "but the OT is great" at th

 

First I'd like to say thanks to Stryphe and Strilo for talking honestly about the reasons behind the decision.

Stryphe? Yes, honest but wrong IMO. He is the only one of the two to have admited personal motivations. He's ended up agreeing to something he really shouldn't to make his life easier. Understandable? Given the problem, yes. What he should have done? No, I don't think so. Not the end of the world though, and I feel he's looking for a solution. I've never felt he's on a power trip as a mod, and thats BIG points for anyone in my book, even if we don't see eye to eye.

*

 

This thread is steering awfully close to personal attacks and being off-topic. Warning to get it back on topic and remain productive.

 

The exact same thing can be said for the PT, so why are we making places for people to discuss this outside the PT forum? Why did we have this for seven years? In fact, to play devil's advocate here, why have a "Golden Age" thread to talk strictly about the OOT in SWC and not in CT in present threads? I see some of the reasons Stryphe and Strilo are doing it, but like your post above simply put, it shouldn't have to be that way anywhere. In both the CT and PT forums, critique is allowed as long as it's done respectfully, debated rationally, realizing opinons are like a certain orifice and without emotional, knee-jerk exaggeration and drive-by bashing. As far as I'm concerned, like Sape, we'd all be able to discuss the movies in their appropriate forum like we're supposed to.

PizzaTheHut posted:

---

I like the idea that?s been suggested of having a thread in which people can criticise the films, but they then have to offer suggestions of what they would do differently. I remember a thread like this was actually started a while ago, by MANDALORIAN I think. The idea was just to talk about how you would have approached the PT if you were Lucas.[hr][/blockquote]

[link=http://boards.theforce.net/prequel_trilogy/b10669/20341476/p1/]If you could change or add any scene[/link] This has been posted a few times in here. I think some people are talking about the Basher's Sanctuary that have never been in there. I also think some people are saying things without ever having been in the PT forum, or not knowing the forum.

 

Pizza the Hutt - your posts weren't ignored, old fellow. You were always one of us in my mind. You have great contributions.

 

I'll catch-up with this thread this evening, but for now I just wanted to let everyone know that I've gotten admin approval for a focus group on the matter. The purpose will be to move forward and search out a "win-win" in the situation. It won't be a debate about unlocking the sanctuary, but rather, reviewing basher concerns and looking at alternatives much in the way ShaneP has already attempted to do here. We'll be pulling out people from the sanctuary who were disappointed by its closer, others who thought it was the right move and then some people on the fence. As such we have all viewpoints on the matter.

 

I have been in the PT forum and am actually aware of that thread. I was going to mention it in my previous post, but I don't really see it as an alternative. That thread's about adding or changing individual scenes, in an individual film. It's not aimed at discussing altering the entire series.

Cheers.

 

Thats great news Darth Stryph. Hopefully the focus group will be able to come up with some interesting idea's that can help turn this crisis into something positive for the benefit of the forums.

 

that's a good idea darth-stryphe.
regardless of what the outcome will be this is a very constructive approach.

 

G-FETT, my friend, you're tickling me with the word "crisis". You sound like Panaka or something.

Just another day in Comms.

 

LOL! Theres no doubt that some users have seriously over-reacted and blew this out of preportion, but I think this discussion HAS highlighted underlying resentments that have been going on across the forums for several years. Obviously the focus group won't be able to rid the forums completely of all those resentments, but hopefully it will be able to come up with a few solutions that will help make everyones lives a little more easy.