Tell me why half the Episode Two score is from Episode One

Discussion in 'Star Wars And Film Music' started by Grand Moff Lars, May 16, 2002.

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  1. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    I thought the AOTC score was better than TPM. It seemed to have less filler music and fewer Jar Jar type "comedy" cues.
  2. Emperor_Dan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 1999
    star 4
    Up... At JWFAN.NET it says that the Clone War wasn't done for JW, and no music was recorded.
  3. Sithman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 1999
    star 7
    Wait, what do you mean Danny? :confused:

    Do you mean "wasn't done by John Williams"? You mean all the music for the Battle of Geonosis (the stuff that wasn't from TPM, that is) wasn't done by JW? [face_shocked]

    (Or do you mean the game, Clone War?)

    \\anxious to hear answer\\
  4. Emperor_Dan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 1999
    star 4
    Uhh, I mean the actual Clone War sequence.. you know, the stuff pasted from Ep1. No music was ever recorded.
  5. Nightowl TFN Timetales Writer

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    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 4
    Lucas had the beginning of the Battle of Geonosis (up to the point Mace makes his appearance) and ending (starting with Padme taking her tumble) finished. Everything in-between was still in editing flux (this was around March 2002). So Williams composed the Arena/Padme's fall as a single cue. (This is evident from the Galactic Battlegrounds: Clone Campaigns game, which has an extended version of the cue from the CD.)

    In Lucas's defense, there was no time for Williams to go back and rescore the Battle's midpoint. The Battle came into its' final form in late April, and Williams at that point was already well into composing the music for Steven Spielberg's "Minority Report." (The same thing happened with TPM, with Williams working on "The Patriot.")

    Williams then allowed Lucas (or more accurately, sound editor Ben Burtt) to track in whatever music from TPM he felt appropriate to fill the missing middle section. I don't think he expected Lucas/Burtt to literally cut-and-paste a few notes here and there and weld them to whole sections of music from other scenes like they did, but what can you do?

    So that explains the battle. As for the other changes:

    -- Threepio's slapstick in the Conveyor Belt sequence was a last minute addition by Lucas. In the version of the scene Williams scored for, Threepio and Artoo apparently remained on Padme's ship.
    -- The addition of TPM music to Obi-Wan's faceoff with Dooku and Padme/Anakin's arrival on Geonosis may have simply been a matter of Lucas not being happy with what Williams composed, or he may have decided those scenes needed no music and later changed his mind.
    -- The changes in the Chase Through Coruscant sequence, JWFan indicates, was all Ben Burtt's fault. He evidently felt Williams' music was upstaging his own sound work in the sequence.

    All that said, I wouldn't be surprised if Lucas asks Williams to go back in 2007 and rescore the entire Battles (Naboo and Geonosis) for the HD-DVD box set.
  6. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    Wow! Thanks a ton Nightowl!
  7. Sithman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 1999
    star 7
    Hmmm, that's somewhat comforting. :)
  8. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    now can someone explain that to the guy who posted his petition on all of the threads today?
  9. Jeff 42 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1998
    star 5
    It would have been nice if GL had had enough respect for the music to get the movie done in time so it could be properly scored.
  10. Sithman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 1999
    star 7
    I agree, Jeff. Even though everyone's going nuts with anticipation by May, I would wait another 2 months to have an amazing ORIGINAL score. Definitely worth the wait.
  11. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    Yes, but how could he? do you think two years ago he would have known that he wouldn't have enough time? That is when they booked the recording sessions. Even, come Jan, if they wanted to postpone it, they would not have been able to get a session for a year. would you have been willing to wait 8 months? a year? He would have been lynched by every member of the JC.
  12. Jeff 42 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1998
    star 5
    He should have made a rough cut of the arena battle/clone war sequence in time for Williams to score it, and then not made any huge changes that would cause the music to be horribly butchered. The sequence wouldn't need to be 100% completed to be scored, just in good enough shape that music could be written for it that wouldn't have to be chopped to pieces later. They would still be able to work on the special effects after the score was done.
  13. 1stAD Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2001
    star 5
    I don't know how a rough cut of the clone war that early would even be possible, considering it is mostly CGI. Maybe animatics, but I'm not really sure Lucas would want JW scoring a scene based on some very crude animatics.

    -- The changes in the Chase Through Coruscant sequence, JWFan indicates, was all Ben Burtt's fault. He evidently felt Williams' music was upstaging his own sound work in the sequence.

    I'd like to know the source of this...
    And besides, JW's own scoring of the sequence loses most of it's energy only a few minutes in. At least Burtt's loop edit keeps up the frantic pace of the chase.
  14. CopernicusDent Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2001
    star 2
    The hell....


    from JWfan.net:

    ("The plan from the begining was to use music from The Phantom Menace for the 'Clone War' section of Attack of the Clones.


    Long-time JWFan.net contributor 'Elvisjones' has the proof:

    I attended a seminar today in Hollywood, CA, and it was confirmed by Matt Wood, the Supervising Sound Editor for Attack of the Clones, that the plan from the begining was to use music from The Phantom Menace for the 'Clone War' section of Reel 6. He said the Clone War was in such embryonic form when the film was turned over to John Williams that it was decided not to compose any original music for the sequence, but instead to track it with music from 'The Phantom Menace'. In conjunction with the report from Abbey Road a few months ago and John Takis's mathematical calculations re:cumulative timings of the score so far, this would seem to clinch it.

    Additionally, other scenes that were tracked with music from 'The Phantom Menace', such as the scene on the balcony in Naboo, may have had music written for them that was dumped. Matt Wood did not have a definitive answer except to say that the film had been spotted pretty much wall to wall.

    Finally, in a demonstration that showed how badly film can deteriorate over the course of time, McCallum showed the first few minutes of the original Star Wars from 1977 - this was 35mm film struck directly from the original camera negative of the print from 1977 and guess what? No 'Episode IV: A New Hope' title in the opening crawl. I saw it with my own eyes today, and it is just as I have always said it was - the crawl was not added until the film was rereleased in 1979 or 1980, just before 'Empire' (it is possible the Ep. IV thing was not added until even 1981, when the film was rereleased again!).

    -- elvisjones")

  15. Sithman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 1999
    star 7
    :mad:

    I guess all we can hope for are the ultimate editions... :(
  16. bright sith Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 1999
    star 5
    Nice info Nightowl. And those supposedly "final editions," yeah, the rescoring for these two prequels would be the biggest attraction.
  17. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    Am I the only person who actually liked the music sequences for the Arena/Clone War?
  18. Jeff 42 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1998
    star 5
  19. CopernicusDent Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2001
    star 2
    Yes. Tracked-on music from a pervious episode--unbecoming for a Star Wars movie, indeed.

  20. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    have you read any of the previous pages? They have used tracked on parts for OT, and for TPM. Just because it is more recognizable now, you all are up in arms.

    And, if you would refer the FilmScoreMonthly's look at the scene, you will see that much of the music that was tracked on was unused in TPM, and only appeared in the Video Game.

    I will bet you that when TTT comes out, there will be some portions that, due to production and editing demands, they will use some music from FOTR. Because it is the same overall work. Williams did this for the Superman sequals as well... in the industry, it is more common than you would believe for sequals or movie series.
  21. Nightowl TFN Timetales Writer

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    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 4
    Actually, Williams didn't do the Superman sequels. Ken Thorne did the soundtracks for II and III, Alexander Courage did IV. All of them reorchestrated and rerecorded Williams' themes instead of straight ripping.
  22. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    I knew that Thorne did the reorchestrations, but I also remember reading in a essay about compostional "butchery" (that was how the author termed it, but he was trying to prove that film score was not a viable medium for a serious composer) that Thorne was upset because some of his cues were taken out and Williams originals (post cut and paste) were put in its place. I will have to see if I still have that kicking around...
  23. CopernicusDent Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2001
    star 2
    "They have used tracked on parts for OT..."

    They?ve used A New Hope?s 1977 score in Empire Strikes Back, etc?


    "...if you would refer the FilmScoreMonthly's look at the scene, you will see that much of the music that was tracked on was unused in TPM..."

    I don?t need to read Film Score Monthly to know that, I listen to the music.

    It?s not so much the previously recorded music from Menace that aggravates me. In hindsight it doesn?t bother me watching the movie now.

    What does bother is the mishmash of virtually 15 different cues from Phantom Menace material.

    It?s so obvious.

    A small portion of Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan?s death warrant cue was reused a least 3 times. The exact same music, 3 times over, I think digital recording may be too flexible in some respects. If Episode II?s score had been recorded pre-digital, the arena battle would have been a coherent, consistent, flowing, arousing cue. Locked down and perfect.


    "I will bet you that when TTT comes out, there will be some portions that, due to production and editing demands, they will use some music from FOTR."

    I very much doubt that. For the expanded dvd release of Fellowship, the 30 minutes of extra material will have newly recorded score composed by Mr. Shore. That?s quality. For a dvd no less.


  24. Sithman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 1999
    star 7
    Certainly. You're right on with the FOTR DVD/TTT comments. :)
  25. Grand Moff Joker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 1999
    star 4
    No doubt about the FOTR DVD. You have to give Peter Jackson more than due credit for putting out a quality product in all respects. Every time I complain about the music debacle of Episode 2, I point out that if Peter Jackson can have Howard Shore compose brand new music just for the DVD's additional scenes, then surely George Lucas could find a way to allow a composer of the stature of John Williams to actually score a decent edit of the film.

    Speaking of DVDs, remember when we all had high hopes that the EP2 music would be "corrected" somehow on the DVD? Well, unfortunately, that's not going to happen.

    In addition, it looks like the EP2 DVD may contain yet another jarring botched musical edit. In a recent EP2 DVD review on Ain't It Cool News (Read the review here!), it is pointed out that one of the extended scenes now found in the movie itself - when Anakin confesses his slaughter of the Tuskens to Padme - has another nasty musical edit:

    "The material in this addition is okay, but my problem with its incorporation is the altered music track. The way the scene played originally was perfect. The Emperor?s theme played while Anakin told her what happened. Then, as Anakin breaks down in tears and Padme soothes him, the music mellows out. In the new version, the moment had to be extended for a few seconds longer, so the music had to be extended, too. This new edited part of the sequence is jarring and out of place as far as I?m concerned. We cut back to the Emperor?s theme again, and then cut back to the soothing music. This is just a bad choice."

    Bummer.
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