Tell me why half the Episode Two score is from Episode One

Discussion in 'Star Wars And Film Music' started by Grand Moff Lars, May 16, 2002.

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  1. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    As far as the Shore comments...even with the DVD release, they knew years ago that they would be releasing an extended version and I am sure they had Howard's time booked, as well as the LSO booked. It was planned.

    As far as the extended version... we shall have to see (less then a month!!!!!)

    Regardless, I don't think any less of Williams or Lucas for the scene. I really enjoy the entire end sequence, and wouldn't have them change a thing.
  2. DENIS_VADER Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2002
    star 1
    I think the most of the music we hear after the love theme on track 11 or 12 (if I remeber correctly) was written for the arena (3 people VS 3 monsters). Maybe GL had decided in the very last moment that this scene was better without music (like the most of the PodRace). But I'm sure it wasn't written for the Jedi Battle. I don't know if GL have or not first thought about a Jedi-vs-Droïds battle without music. If he have, he sould have finally prefer a "silently" arena scene...and quickely find a way for the Battle soundtrack.
    I'm sure this "bug" was an effect of a straight timeline. With the digital directing, George can changes his film until the last day, and that should makes things difficult to John Williams. Don't blame him.

    I too was very disapointed to hear entire tracks from TPM, and for a while I was hoping that, if it was a "we're-in-late-with-this-movie-May02-is-too-short" effect, we could have a good score for the DVD edition. I don't think so anymore.
    If we get a UE for AOTC, it will be the first time in SW story when a soundtrack-CD is better than the musical movie...
    ---- happens.

    And you fine guys who gives lessons of english, may you excuse mine, I'm french.


    Edited swearing.
  3. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    have you read any of the previous pages? They have used tracked on parts for OT, and for TPM. Just because it is more recognizable now, you all are up in arms.

    There were tracked on parts from other scenes in the same film (Empire's snowspeeders) and there was ONE tracking in something from Empire into Jedi (before Brother and Sister) but these changes are maybe one or two minutes worth. The TPM mess in AOTC is 15 minutes worth. I'd say that's a whole different magnitude and not simply "more recognizable."

  4. CopernicusDent Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2001
    star 2
    Well, the Snowspeeder cue was written for The Empire Strikes Back. So that?s forgivable, and unnoticeable.

    There is a piece from Empire that sounds a lot like another certain piece when Luke and Leia are talking in the Ewok village. But that music is in the Jedi Special Edition soundtrack, so I don?t know where I stand on that.

  5. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    The first minute or so of the scene where Luke tells Leia he is her brother is scored with the first minute of "Yoda and the Force" from ESB. This then flows right into the "Brother and Sister" cue on the SE soundtrack. This is the only occurance of tracking music from another film into a Star Wars film that I can think of.

  6. Jeff 42 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1998
    star 5
    Hey strilo, I like your signature! :D
  7. CopernicusDent Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2001
    star 2
    Well yeah, that?s the music I?m talking about. Those 2 cues sound awfully similar. My question is how did that cue get on the Jedi Special Edition and Anthology soundtrack?

  8. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    I guess why I am frustrated is that we are dealing with different parts of the same work. I would agree, were we talking about completely different movies or projects, that borrowing music from other movies is distasteful. However, we are dealing with something that goes beyond even sequals, but is a continuation of the same work. I don't know whether that revulsion of editing and tracking on cues is justified. Especially if IMO it works well and is only "jarring" to people who recognize it.

    for example, the comment was even made of "I don't know where I stand on that." If it works in the scene, why when you realize where it came from do you suddenly question its validity within the scene? I could understand if score was supposed to be a stand alone work, but we're talking about a collaborative effort.
  9. CopernicusDent Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2001
    star 2
    "...it works in the scene, why when you realize where it came from do you suddenly question its validity within the scene..."

    I don?t know if it questions the validity of the scene, but I feel it questions the validity of the score.

  10. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    that is what I said. "its validity within the scene." Not "the falidity of the scene." Based upon your comment, you question whether or not it works, but only after realizing that it is old material. To me, that is judging based upon self righteous principles rather than the effect of the music (whether old or new).
  11. CopernicusDent Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2001
    star 2
    I think it?s a bit of an overstatement to call the norm of film scoring a self-righteous principle.

    What we hear (currently) in the Area Battle is passable, but that?s as far as it goes.

    That's been said. Having new music during the Area Battle would have made it tremendously better.

    Think of all the scoring possibilities. The leitmotif, the frequent and well-placed character quotes, the violent energy of older Star Wars films.

    Film scoring should still be a craft. Not easy manipulation.

  12. dolphin Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 1999
    star 4
    I wasn't too crazy about JW's unedited cues(except for maybe the love theme). Perhaps the TPM music is better than what was once there.
  13. CopernicusDent Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2001
    star 2
    "Those 2 cues sound awfully similar. My question is how did that cue get on the Jedi Special Edition and Anthology soundtrack?"

    I take that back. I was listening of my Rca copy of Jedi and there it was.

    Or there it wasn?t.

    The Empire-sounding music is indeed actual music from Empire. I can?t believe I?ve never noticed that piece absent from the album.

  14. deltau922 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 4
    This music recycling was kind of distracting the first time I saw the movie, but now i think it's great. You know, kind of like the title of the movie was.
  15. Ben_Max Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2001
    star 2
    I think we should remember that John Williams writes and conducts the music, but he is NOT the music EDITOR. Somebody else places the music into the film. John Williams has nothing to do with that. Don't blame it on him.
  16. Grand Moff Joker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 1999
    star 4
    We don't. We blame George Lucas.

    :D
  17. Darth_SnowDog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 4
    I think the topic can be answered when one first answers this question:

    Why does half the score from Episode IV come from Gustav Holst's "Planets Suite"?

    :D [face_mischief]


    Hint: Williams, along with many other film composers, has heavily plagiarized Holst's Planets Suite, particularly Mars and Jupiter movements. For those not familiar, Holst's Planets Suite has been referenced by John Williams, Basil Poledouris, Bill Conti, Alan Silvestri, James Horner (one of the worst plagiarists in cinematic history) and Hans Zimmer, among numerous others... Holst's Planets, first performed in 1918, is virtually a "Film Scoring for Dummies".
  18. Jeff 42 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1998
    star 5
    "Williams... has heavily plagiarized Holst's Planets Suite"

    PPOR

    [face_plain]
  19. Darth_SnowDog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 4
    Jeff: PPOR? Uh... just get a copy of "Planets", cue up Mars, and/or Jupiter, and you'll hear several entire sections of music that are replicated in Williams' score almost note for note. It's inexcusably blatant. Oh, and in Mars and Jupiter, you'll hear musical cues used in Gladiator, Conan the Barbarian, Braveheart and countless other films. As I said before, Williams isn't the first composer to "borrow" from Holst... and certainly not the last.

    Did you know that James Horner plagiarized Enya for part of the Titanic score... because he couldn't get her permission to use her music. How original. Horner's music has been recycled numerous times... in Star Trek II and III... between Star Trek IV and Krull... and I think he holds the record for the most self-plagiarized film scorer, next to Williams (who has rehashed variations of own music between the Star Wars and Indiana Jones series... and the love theme from Episode Two is a less-than-subtle variation of his score for Spielberg's "Hook"). Instead of actually working for the money, Horner had his own master recording recycled from Commando to Aliens, then Die Hard (though Horner was uncredited here)... I might have missed a couple of films there. :D


    EDIT: I forgot to mention Alan Silvestri's score for Predator. Listen to the music in Predator where they're in the Jungle. It's the music from his score for Back to the Future! He got full credit (and pay) for Predator, by the way.

    Incidentally, John McTiernan directed Die Hard and Predator... back to back! McTiernan must be a big fan of recycling... he also directed the remakes of The Thomas Crown Affair and Rollerball.
  20. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    Should I even comment on this.... ok, I guess I will.

    There is a stark difference between plagiarism and style. Plagiarism is lifting melodies and scored sections from one work and using them exactly in the others. The inspiration of Holst is widely recognized, but there is not one case of a melody that was taken from it, or sections of orchestration lifted directly from it. And saying that composers recycle music is VERY different from having their own style, or as JW puts it, a musical fingerprint. Yes they sound similar, but that is because of the treatement of specific instrumental voices, the use of color, and other stylistic similiarities. If you look at the scores, and the notes, you will never find a case where a score or a melody is even transposed into a different key and used again. It takes a subtle ear to tell the difference...

    I don't know about the enya case, but saying that they are plagiarizing each other or that they recycle would be like saying that Haydn plagiarized Mozart. Or for that matter, that Holst plagiarized Brahms, some of whose music is very similar to Holst. But, that is because they learned from the former masters...

    What we are talking about in the case of AOTC are recordings from other SW movies that were edited and fitted into this movie. Not even just a rescore or rerecording, but the same cues.
  21. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    I agree with Tenor. The Planets was a strong influence on Star Wars and other scores but that does not make it plagerism.

  22. Jeff 42 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1998
    star 5
    "Jeff: PPOR? Uh... just get a copy of "Planets", cue up Mars, and/or Jupiter, and you'll hear several entire sections of music that are replicated in Williams' score almost note for note. It's inexcusably blatant."

    Um, I've heard the ANH score dozens of times, so I'm very familiar with it. I've also listened to The Planets several times, and I think that if there was anything in it that was exactly the same as part of the ANH score I would have noticed. I definitely hear the Holst influence on ANH, but there's nothing that could be called plagiarism. The Gladiator score does rip off "Mars," but even that probably falls a bit short of actual plagiarism.
  23. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    And why was the Droid March used with the Clones?

    That's something I've been wondering..and I think I have a good explanation:

    Lucas and McCallum said multiple times prior to the release of AOTC that we will see why the clones are better than droids, that they are their replacements. Perhaps Williams used the theme as a sort of way of saying: "These guys are the replacements for the droids." Or..."These guys are the biological equivalent of battle droids." Notice how it sounded different-there was an underlying theme to it that I can't quite identify that made it sound more powerful, IMO.

    Anyhow, I found myself liking lots of the Battle Of Geonosis score. It worked, IMO.
    Although I was rather irritated that Dooku/Obi-Wan/Anakin/Yoda didn't have a proper piece of music to go with it..
  24. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    I can't remember where I said this, but I also LOVED the use of the droid army theme when you see the clone troopers. Mostly because I think that it sets up the parallel that, even though they end up fighting each other, they are both fighting for Palpatine's victory. This makes the IM at the end that much more powerful, because Palps is finally taking a side, and the army transends from a pawn being moved around by Palps to his own personal property, an incarnation of his power.

    but I digress...I am glad to see someone else who liked the music for the battle sequence.
  25. CopernicusDent Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2001
    star 2
    "I definitely hear the Holst influence on ANH, but there's nothing that could be called plagiarism."

    Ditto, but if were wrong, do tell us what sections of Hope was blatantly plagiarized from Holst.


    "...but I also LOVED the use of the droid army theme when you see the clone troopers."

    I also like the droid army theme used during the unveiling. Though, I wish it was used more throughout the film; orchestrated anew of course.

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