Tell me why half the Episode Two score is from Episode One

Discussion in 'Star Wars And Film Music' started by Grand Moff Lars, May 16, 2002.

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  1. JWK Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 18, 2000
    star 4
    I think the Score in EII is ok but not up to par with the rest of SW.
  2. Janz_Walker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2000
    star 4
    Wait till the Ultimate Edition of the sound track comes out. If it comes out...

    If you watch the Original Trilogy you will notice themes repeated from the previously released movies in each successive film. It's only logical they'd do the same with the prequel trilogy. Remember, all six movies are one big story arc. And that is another reason.

    Chris
  3. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    I think it IS up to par with the rest of Star Wars. Remove all the bad edits and music tracked from TPM and most people's issues with the score would evaporate.

  4. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    The cut/paste of the music made AOtC feel like a fan film.
  5. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Well I would not go THAT far but yeah it definately detracted from the film. It still annoys me 10 times later...

  6. anakin_e Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2000
    star 1
    A Proposal:

    In my opinion, particularly after watching the AOTC DVD, the score was horrible. The shoddy cut and paste of music made the music act merely as noise, rather tha propelling the story like in the others (i suspect Lucas didn't write thsi one to music as he did with ANH).
    I'm hoping Lucas realizes this, and I have a suggestion for him. When we finally get the "Archival" DVDs with all 6 films fixed up and "finished" I think that while remixing all the audio, Lucas should bring John Williams back in to rerecord the entire score for all 6 films, rewriting parts to make all of the films fit together more. The main reason why AOTC's score was done badly IMO was that the Clone War sequence was not exactly orthodox and Im sure that the editing of the end of the movie wasn't done by the time the music was recorded. Now, if Williams comes back when Ep III is done and rescores it all (fix AOTC, add Imperial March to ANH etc.) i think it would be really cool.
  7. DarthBaconBarm Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2002
    Well I totaly disagree, I must of watched AOTC about 20 times this week and I think it the score is amazing.
    I can totally deal with all the editing BS because at the end of the day I'm grateful for even 30 seconds of new JW material.
    I think alot of us SW and JW fans should focus our negative thoughts towards prats like Count Roberto Williams, Gareth 'cheeseball' Gates and Will 'you please drop dead' Young. They are evil !!!
    They destroy the soul and everything beautiful in humanity with their drivel.
    GL and his crew just don't know how to edit JW music properly, but at least they give us the oportunity to experience it, surely in this messed up world that's at least something to be grateful for.
  8. 1stAD Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2001
    star 5
    I don't know about the rest of you, but I think that the final battle should have no music whatsoever. If JW does rescore after 2005 or whatever, I would only want the Arena battle scored (the portion after Mace arrives), with some kind of fanfare as Yoda and the gunships land. After that, no music until the point where the Trade Federation Coreship is shot down (and using the cue already in the movie).
  9. CopernicusDent Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2001
    star 2
    "I don't know about the rest of you, but I think that the final battle should have no music whatsoever..."

    Really, having the bouncy droid army rendition from Menace (among many others) during Jedi dieing in the battle seemed to hurt the drama of the sequence.

    See: Saving Private Ryan.

  10. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    OK I think that the tracked music from TPM is as lame as the next guy. But suggesting that music from Star Wars should sound like Saving Private Ryan is just lame. That score was very muted and dark and somber. It just doesn't fit a Star Wars film no matter who dies.

  11. CopernicusDent Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2001
    star 2
    Hmmm, I just used Saving Private Ryan as an example because of its use of little-or-no music during the combat sequences.

    Now of course, for a Star Wars film you need music all the time, but there?s always a sequence in any Star Wars movie where there's no music and you just hear the sound effects.

  12. 1stAD Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2001
    star 5
    Exactly, there's probably only 3 or 4 minutes of screen time that I would want scored, and leave the rest of the battle to the sound effects.

    Much of the Battle of Yavin went on with no music and it worked fine :)
  13. Krash RSA Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2000
    star 5
    I think the repeating of "themes" from TPM and what later becomes OT just adds to GL's idea that when all 6 movies are together...they'll form 1 complete story. The fact that WE (the audience) first hear music in ROTJ, and then it's used in AOTC becomes a question of "the chicken and the egg."

    Perhaps the reason there is so much music from OT in AOTC is because GL wanted to convey a sense of history repeating itself. The Clone Wars was a turning point in the history of the SW universe; and later the Battle of Endor is where the forces of good "re-take the throne" from "the evil king" The musical themes we are introduced in OT are supposed to remind of how things got to be this way, and that "the prophecy" of Anakin bringing "balance to the Force" and the universe at large is finally coming true.

    Man, that was some deep thoughts...I need to listen to my Britney Spears...and chill out for a while ;)

    EDIT: The "Saving Private Ryan" soundtrack is a good example of why Spielberg wouldn't do as well as director of Episode III as GL. They have different opinions on how music is incorporated into the movie. SPR has one of the greatest battle scenes in the history of film, but it's music isn't as much an influence on the scene as GL/John Williams did with AOTC. Same quality music(by the same composer)...different approaches to how much/where to have music during a battle scene.
  14. bright sith Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 1999
    star 5
    Again, this debate has never been about the re-use of themes. Never.

    And this comparison with Saving Private Ryan makes little sense. The action scenes in Star Wars are meant to excite, to be eye openers, to be the crowd cheering experiences. That is exactly the opposite of the opening of Ryan. We cannot look at a scene's action and its use of music, we must look at the meaning and context.
  15. CopernicusDent Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2001
    star 2
    >>And this comparison with Saving Private Ryan makes little sense.<<

    "Hmmm, I just used Saving Private Ryan as an EXAMPLE because of its use of little-or-no music during the combat sequences.

    Now of course, for a Star Wars film you need music all the time, but there?s always a sequence in any Star Wars movie where there's no music and you just hear the sound effects."

  16. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    But even so, The battle of Yavin is the exception in this case, not the rule...it didn't need music to keep the pacing, becuase the visuals had all the cockpit shots, and the feeling of flying, which was sufficient to give the audience sweaty palms and feel "in" the sequence. Same with the pod race...the speed of the vehicles made the pacing work. In the AOTC battle, it is mostly changing shots of armies, and very little to make the audience feel like they are moving, so it definately needed music in that sequence.

    If you want to see how solely sound effects work, just look at the creature battles in the arena. Now THAT is similar to Yavin, in that the action DOES keep the pace up (it gave me sweaty palms), and the musical entrance works as a turning point, as in Yavin.

    anywho, I recently had the opportunity to watch AOTC with my dad, who really like the OT and enjoyed TPM and AOTC (but isn't a geek like us ;)). Now, he is not a "music person" at all, and he commented on three musical points: The force theme at the homestead, the trade federation march when looking at the clones, and the music from TPM during the clone war battle. I found it ironic that the very things that are so "painful" to us film score "lovers" are the very things that he drew enjoyment from (mostly, that he saw the connection between the trade federation and the clone army, that both are fighting for palpatine, though fighting each other).

    a fun experiment... watch AOTC with non-us people, and see how they react to the tracked on music. I feel that if it worked for them to get into the sequence and even see the subtext the music adds, then just because we recognize it is no reason to be critical of its presence
  17. Krash RSA Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2000
    star 5
    We cannot look at a scene's action and its use of music, we must look at the meaning and context.
    The meaning is very simple...war is an ugly thing, regardless of the context. I used the comparision to illustrate that while GL and Spielberg are close friends (and 2 of the greatest directors of our time) their individual use of music really makes Spielberg not the best choice for director of Episode III.
  18. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
  19. CopernicusDent Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2001
    star 2
    "If you want to see how solely sound effects work, just look at the creature battles in the arena. Now THAT is similar to Yavin, in that the action DOES keep the pace up..."

    Well, there is music in the beginning and end of the creature battle sequence, but of course I know what you mean.

    Your statement definitely touches on the notion that no music in 1 scene will usually always empower music to come, and enable it much more special.

  20. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    exactly!

    that is one of the reasons I am glad that they have the section of silence in the arena. It makes the moment when Anakin tames the Reek REALLY stand out! In a great way. then, as the battle goes on, a hope slowly builds in the audience.

    Then, with the old Droid music on the entrance, it totally throws the audience for a loop. Suddenly, the hope fades, only to be sparked by the trumpet fanfare with the entrance of Mace, and then just fast paced music for the battle sequence... I hear that and every time get drawn straight in! That is why I love this scene!!!!
  21. Dani1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    star 3
    I think most people understand that it is necessary to edit music (esp. in quick paced action scenes) sometimes, but what bugs me in this film is the sheer amount of seemingly pointless switching around of cues... I simply can't understand why the original end credits suite was totally ripped out in favour of the concert arrangement of the love theme. Totally gone is a beautiful transition of the love theme, into Anakin's theme, and finishing off with the Imperial march.

    Why was this change made? There were no concerns about time constraints, no re-edited scenes to warrant the change... so... Why???

    Still, it could have been worse. Anyone who has heard Spielberg's absolute butchering of Williams' score for "The Lost World" will know what I mean... At least the majority of the cues in AOTC were still used in their correct scenes.
  22. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    I thought that something happened where they had to change the length of the credits, and that is why they had to substitute...

    otherwise, I have no idea why they changed it, but it was deliberate. Perhaps GL didn't want any hintings of Anakin's theme due to subtext (i.e. he is NOT that little boy, and doesn't want even the most remote connection to him made). who knows.
  23. 1stAD Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2001
    star 5
    Well, I know that there are certain rules regarding credits where they have to be grouped in a certain way and play at a certain speed...
  24. CopernicusDent Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2001
    star 2
    "I simply can't understand why the original end credits suite was totally ripped out in favour of the concert arrangement of the love theme."

    Actually, I found out why. The end title suite comes up about 15 seconds short of the last credit. Where in the theatrical arrangement, comes up 6 seconds short. Either way the music comes up short.

    Pretty lame huh?

    They should?ve stuck with what Williams intended.

  25. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Even so, the THX logo portion comes up after the music is over, so what's a little more with no music. Cover it with 15 seconds of Vader breathing or something and we're fine. Leave the end titles that Williams composed. They are far superior.

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