Tell me why half the Episode Two score is from Episode One

Discussion in 'Star Wars And Film Music' started by Grand Moff Lars, May 16, 2002.

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  1. Dani1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    star 3
    "Perhaps GL didn't want any hintings of Anakin's theme due to subtext (i.e. he is NOT that little boy, and doesn't want even the most remote connection to him made)."

    I can see your point here, but one of the things I was looking forward to in the PT was to hear exactly how Williams takes his new music and slowly evolves it into the OT music we alredy know so well. I guess this is a case of fans setting themselves up for a fall with their expectations.

    Still, Williams did talk about how he would do this, particularly with Anakin's theme, and it seems to me that GL has scuppered his efforts by having such a heavy-handed approach to the music editing.
  2. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Perhaps GL didn't want any hintings of Anakin's theme due to subtext (i.e. he is NOT that little boy, and doesn't want even the most remote connection to him made). who knows.

    This is ludicrous as Anakin's theme appears IN AOTC on several occasions! It's not Anakin's Little Boy theme, it is Anakin's theme. This means it works for Anakin.

    He uses it when Padme spots Anakin after greeting Obi-Wan in her apartment on Coruscant and then it is used again when Padme asks Anakin about having another nightmare on the balcony on Naboo.
  3. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    //leaves computer to go listen to scenes//

    oh, and as to hintings of anakins theme as transition... I am not so sure that there is none. When I have some time (yeah, right!) I want to dig a little deeper into the harmonic structure of ATS, as well as the form for the piece, and cross these with Anakin's theme from TPM. I don't know for sure, but I have the feeling that there is something there. More to follow...
  4. dolphin Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 1999
    star 4
    Because half of the film was probably switched around and heavily edited after JW finished scoring.
  5. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    So go back and rescore it with John Williams during pickup sessions. Don't track in recordings from old Star Wars films like a patchwork quilt.

  6. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    Does anyone know where the Trade Federation theme was supposed to be used in AOTC originally? Because from listening to the CD I thought the music would be used when Obi-Wan lands on Geonosis and sees the TF ships, which would have made more sense than where it was used in the final film, to accompany the first sighting of the Clone army.
  7. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    No way would that bold statement of the TF theme worked when Obi Wan lands on Geonosis. It's too loud and march-y. That scene is subtle and quiet and mysterious. I believe it was composed for the scene it was used in. It fits perfectly. Perhaps the problem is not that the theme does not "fit" but that we all gave it the wrong name. It may NOT be the theme for the Trade Federation after all.

  8. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    Or is it serving as a subtext...ie though this army will be fighting against the TF army, they are actually both "owned" and ordered around by Palpatine...

    then, as he chooses one to openly back, we see the beginning of their definition being an imperial army.
  9. General Kenobi Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 1998
    star 6
    they are actually both "owned" and ordered around by Palpatine...

    Actually, you could say they were controlled by a puppet of Palpy. (TF/Geonosians creating & controlling droids, Sifo-Dyas/Tyranus ordering & Kaminoins creating the clone army.)
  10. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
  11. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Thus the "Palpatine's Puppet Army Theme"!!!


    :D

  12. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    oh, so first we try to rename the moth theme, and now you are trying to rename the TF march...

    I love it!

  13. han_solo_321 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2002
    star 4
    The music played when the arena battle with the jedi starts (when Mace does his flip).


    Is that music copyied from TPM or is it new music because I can't find it in TPM



    Also the music played when Anakin Padme and Obi Wan get shot off the Reek. Is that in TPM?
  14. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    I think that the mace cue comes from TPM Original Sound Track release, track 9 (somewhere around 1:30 in or so...)

    Also, I am not quite sure where the second part you mention comes from...I know that quite a good bit of the edits in that section come from either TPM video game or Podracer, so it could be from one of those two...

    ...yet, as I listen to it more, I think that part of that section might be from TPM...it is the succession of flute trills going up with the open horns at the end. That reminds me of something. More to follow...
  15. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    I found it!

    It is in TPM:UE, track 33, from about 1:40 on.
  16. Emperor's Prize Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 1999
    star 4
    Tell me why half the Episode Two score is from Episode One

    Is there any hope that things will be different for Ep. III? Or am I going to have to cross my fingers and hold my breath? :p

    In reading *most* of the posts on this thread, I have to agree that it is just wrong to recycle music from one movie to the next. Re-using themes is important and establishes continuity between films ... but using the exact same recordings just makes me :mad:.
  17. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    E
    X
    A
    C
    T
    L
    Y
    !


    I completely agree, Emperor's Prize! :) That's been my whole point this entire thread. Cheers!

  18. baritonep1aya Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 1
    >>>>>In reading *most* of the posts on this thread, I have to agree that it is just wrong to recycle music from one movie to the next.

    But Emperor's Prize, you can't tell me you wouldn't LOVE the idea of hearing Anakin Vs. Sebulba during the Anakin/Obi Wan fight, can you? :p
  19. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    All of AOTC was used in AOTC. I have the cd and what you hear is in the movie. Nothing is from the TPM cd. There are tracks that are from TPM but JW recorded them for AOTC. They were not taken straight from TPM tracks.
  20. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Oh please. Don't even start that whole thing again. There is 15 minutes of music, starting with Anakin and Padme arriving at Geonosis that was tracked directly from the TPM score. It is NOT re-recorded, it is NOT re-arranged. It is the recordings from TPM. This is well understood and documented.

  21. Jeff 42 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1998
    star 5
    "It is NOT re-recorded, it is NOT re-arranged."

    Hold on there. A lot of it is re-arranged. And in a really horrible manner.
  22. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    No I meant arranging in a musical sense. What you are talking about it re-editing. Very different.

  23. Emperor's Prize Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 1999
    star 4
    But Emperor's Prize, you can't tell me you wouldn't LOVE the idea of hearing Anakin Vs. Sebulba during the Anakin/Obi Wan fight, can you?
    Nah, I was thinking more along the lines of Jar-Jar's theme. :D

    And in terms of themes -- I'm not sure if this has been mentioned on this thread yet, or not (and if it belongs elsewhere let me know) -- does anyone else here feel as though the recycling of TPM music in AOTC left out some important musical themes?

    I feel that the major sequence in question (the Geonosis battle) is the culmination of everything that has taken place throughout AOTC - Obi-Wan's hunt for Padme's assasin, his discovery of the Clones, Dooku's manipulation of the Separatists, as well as Anakin and Padme's love. Yet none of the musical themes that accompanied those narrative sections of the story are present during the battle. Because the Trade Federation is present at the battle of Geonosis, some TPM themes ARE appropriate, however, Geonosis was not the battle of Naboo, pt. II. It is its own entity and ought to have its own unique musical score, based on the relevant themes from AOTC and TPM. So if LFL was going to recycle TPM music, why not also include some from AOTC as well? At least that could have helped moderate the calamity a bit :p.
  24. DARTH_CHINA Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2001
    star 5
    Well, I was bored terribly today and decided to make a quick scheme of the AOTC music during the movie.

    It's mainly based upon the "AOTC scene by scene musical breakdown" article by John Takis.

    I took the DVD chapters as reference. (I didn't include #1 "opening logos" & #50 "end credits")

    Musical Untouched Scenes
    2. Attack of the Clones
    3. Return to Coruscant
    4. Chancellor's Meeting
    5. Old Friends
    6. Assassins
    11. Dex? dinner
    12. Jedi Archives
    13. ?Encouraged to love?
    14. Yoda and the Younglings
    15. Return to Naboo
    16. Audience with the Queen
    17. Kamino arrival
    18. Meeting Lama Su
    19. Stolen Kiss
    22. Jango?s apartment
    24. Obi Wan's Report
    26. Obi-Wan vs. Jango
    27. Back to Tatooine
    28. Asteriod Chase
    31. Dooku's Separatist Plot
    32. Tusken Camp
    34. ?You?re not all powerful?
    35. Enemies Revealed
    37. Emergency Powers
    39. Love Pledge
    46a. Master Yoda (until escape Dooku)
    48. ?Begun, The Clone War has?
    49. Secret Union

    Little edits (± 3:53)
    7. Speeder Chase (looped music, unused music... ± 1:05)
    8. Into the club (mystery theme from #4 ± 0:25)
    9. New assignements (edit in Obi-Wan/Yoda/Mace scene. The scene ends with music form track 10 ± 0:04)
    10. Travellng Icognito (edit in the beginning of the scene with music from track 10 ± 0:14 and one measure of "departing Coruscant has been cut ± 0:02)
    20. Inspecting the clones (looped TF march measure ± 0:05)
    21. Teasing a senator (looped ATS ±0:13)
    23. Forbidden love (looped measure for transition to Kamino ± 0:10)
    29. Lars? homestead (looped measures + unused parts ± 0:12)
    30. Anakin?s search (DOTF TPM ending ± 0:05)
    33. Out of Range (looped measure ± 0:13)
    45. Duel with Dooku (some edits here & there ± 0:10)
    46b. Master Yoda (escape Dooku) + 47. ?Well Done Lord Tyranus? (Sidious theme + Kamino theme... instead of first 40 seconds of track #13 ± 0:40)
    ((34. ?You?re not all powerful? DVD: looping of Emperor theme ± 0:15))

    Huge edits (± 6:17)
    40. The Arena (unused part ± 3:00)
    38b. Droid Factory (Inside the factory, unused music, tracked from other scenes... ± 3:17)

    TPM music ? Originally no music? (± 15:44)
    25. Nightmare (the balcony part ,± 1:15)
    36. Obi-Wan captive (± 1:00)
    38a. Droid Factory (Arrival at Geonosis, ± 3:09)
    41. "This Party's Over" (± 6:21)
    42. Yoda?s cavalry (± 1:34)
    43. Clone war (± 1:41)
    44. War Room (± 0:44)

    If we look at the actual editing of the AOTC music, there are ± 10 mins. of clumsy, unnessary editing (cfr. Arena, Speeder Chase, Meadow picnic...)

    The use of TPM music is an amount of ± 16 mins. We know for sure that no music was recorded for the clone war "41-42-43-44" chapters. We don't know whether there was original music for chapters 25,36,38b. Since they used TPM tracks for these scenes, IMO, no music was recorded.

    So, if we look at the actual editing of AOTC music during the film, it's "only" ± 10-15 mins, including little edits and huge ones.

    About the use of TPM music, I don't think we have to consider these parts as edits since no music was recorded for these scenes.

    Anyway, JW has composed ± 110 mins. music for an 132 mins. (without end credits) movie. And ± 10 mins. of the 110 mins. score has been edited. IMO, that doesn't seem that much, I'm sure ESB had approximately the same amount of editing time.

    And the unscored 20 mins. are replaced by TPM tracks.

    My final thoughts: The editing wasn't that bad. The major horrible edit is the droid factory. The most stupid edit is the arena battle, which goes much better with music.

    :)/>/>
  25. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    There is 15 minutes of music, starting with Anakin and Padme arriving at Geonosis that was tracked directly from the TPM score

    How do you know this? Did you see them copy and paste it? It was on the soundtrack!!! JW recorded it. Geez!
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