Terrorism Discussion V2

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Ender Sai, Mar 7, 2005.

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  1. Adm_Thrawn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2004
    star 4
    Well, as has been said a thousand times before, America doesn't need the Marine Corps, it wants it. And it's not part of the institution that is the United States Navy, it simply answers to the Secretary of the Navy (a DoD civilian).
  2. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    And it gets its funding through the Department of the Navy. :p
  3. Adm_Thrawn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2004
    star 4
    I know, but it sounded like you said the Marine Corps is not a separate branch of the armed forces, but rather a part of the USN (like SEALs or whatever). Not a very good idea to say that to a Marine. That reminds of a funny joke:

    "Yeah, the Marine Corps is part of the Navy?it's the men's department."
  4. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Hi,

    Fascinating though this may be, this has nothing to do with the topic. :)

    Unless the USMC has suddenly come up with a great long term plan to manage terrorism that doesn't involve shortsighted but thoroughly entertaining skirmishes?


    E_S
  5. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    hehe, yeah I've heard that.

    Actually, Ender, the Marines do develop alot of antiterror equipment/training/thought :p

  6. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    And the military is one part of the counterterrorism package - the overused part, given they're purely reactive in nature and can't manage a problem so much as deal with one with it becomes obvious. :p

    Unless the military has a plan to get radical youths out of mosques and into work?

    E_S
  7. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Oh, I have my own thoughts on that. I'd like them to be formed into chain gangs and made to pick up garbage in the ghettoes they claim to be so proud of. :p
  8. DarthArsenal6 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 16, 2001
    star 5
  9. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    mmhmm. Would also teach that you don't get to be martyr if you shoot at people. You just get to be publically humiliated. :p
  10. DarthQuellonis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2005
    star 4
    Your all are going at Terrorism from the western viewpoint. We need to think from their prospective if we are truly to grasp and defeat the threat of extremism. Look at any of Osama bin Ladin's speeches or communiques and you see his over arching plans. We blatantly say he has no clear motives, but in reality they are right here before us, his strategy as well. The country of the US needs to:

    1. Concentrate an outrageous number of troops, like 800,000 to completely wipe the region free of the radical ideas the ideology this man is exemplifying. We need to do the opposite of what he is claiming we are doing, we need to not put sanctions on places, we need to not back the Afghanistan or the Iraq government, lastly we need to kill him and all the top deputies. It is quite simple, either worthless sacrifices from IEDs, or a massive counter-terrorism raid on the possible places where Osama might be, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia.

  11. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    We certainly need to stop looking at this from a solely western perspective but an enourmous and counterproductive search for a man who is no longer important is not the way to go.

    This length article from Robert Fisk has considerable merit.
  12. DarthQuellonis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2005
    star 4
    Actually it is the way to go, for starters, you have all that useless military strength getting ambushed in Iraq for no reason, have them go to Afghanistan and Pakistan, surround the area, and completely finish the Taliban resurgence. If you get rid of Osama bin Ladin, Zarwahiri, Masri, you will help eliminate some of the most important aspects of al-Qaida. To believe any words from such political ramblings is only futile attempts to justify our weakness. The truth is America and the West as a whole sucks at fighting guerilla warfare. They spend billions on worthless security precautions that extremists will find ways to get around, and which emboldens them.

    America and the West thinks they are safe from the despicable Islamic militants, but in fact, they are going to sleep in a world more dangerous than ever. We need to strive towards better educating the public, not making forceful statements only suited when confronting other world powers, we need a new plan, a goal which cements all the ideals we strive for, not random security searches at airports, not military patrols in someone else's country, not bloodshed.

    These ideals embolden the patient and extremely adaptable militants,who waged war against the Soviets in Afghanistan from 1979 to 1989, who attended training camps in former Soviet Union republics, of the very masterminds of the September 11th attacks on the US!

    We should reverse the tables by playing their game, by getting out of their countries, by getting out of their business and lives, then we have full reason to defend our lands, but continuous quagmires across the Middle East will not solve anything!

    Even the great Chinese warlord Sun Tzu, said no one values from prolonging in war! The strategies everyone seem to be laying down are prolonging, are more deployment of troops for extended periods of time, are endless financial funding of a virtually hopeless conventional approach on a guerilla war.

    A total withdrawal or all out maneuvering of Coalition Forces is required. However, if we do mobilize more troops, they first should come from Iraq, then they should come from other bases around the world, then the US mainland. The operation should be quick and secret, the media shouldn't be alerted of such an event, to maintain an element of surprise, intelligence on Taliban hideouts and on suspected locations of terrorist leaders should be achieved. More covert operations to find accurate descriptions of where terrorist leaders are is needed if a plan such as this is to work.

    The other option is pull out, and fortifying our country. Defense is always better than attack, because we can await the enemy through cooperation between the US and foreign power intelligence. This is better than pointless costs of a war of ambushes, the debt can be recovered, world securing of nuclear, chemical, biological, radiological, technology can be achieved by assigning our troops to tasks which are largely possible to solve.
  13. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    But one will rightly say that withdrawing will embolden the jihadists on a scale comparable with the collapse of the Soviet Union. The Afghan Arabs and mujahideen believe it was them, and not internal politics in Russia, which prompted the withdrawl and it gave them a sense of victory over what was, on paper, impossible odds. A withdrawl would send a similar message that such tactics do work and are, in future, worth pursuing.

    E_S
  14. DarthQuellonis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2005
    star 4
    Ah yes, but that instills in them a false sense of victory, and you are falling into their lap if you waste your resources fighting them in a pointless conflict. I think you are the one that needs to read up on military strategy, it is not weakness to withdraw! If you are facing destruction then you would retreat in a large conflict, would you not? Or would you be foolish and fight for "honor"?
  15. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Being in the US military and recently back from Iraq, I can tell you that we're hardly facing destruction.
  16. DarthQuellonis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2005
    star 4
    I am not talking about the military, I am talking about the innocent Iraqis, the civilians who will be attacked be the extremists. Tell me, where were you stationed in Iraq?
  17. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Baghdad. ;)

    Tell me, what exactly do you think will happen if we pull out? The brooding civil war will just fade away? I doubt it.
  18. DarthQuellonis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2005
    star 4
    Tell me, what happens if we stay? Does that do anything to help stop the spread of violence? No, the US is just getting in the way of the militias. Let them fight it out, it's their country, why should we police them if they don't want another country's army there? We are only worsening problems in Iraq, let them fight, we can do nothing to stop them. If you want to stay, fine, but why don't you speak to a few people on the streets, and see what they think about your presence.
  19. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Hi Quellonis,

    I wrote my Masters thesis on counter-terrorism, and you are? o_O

    That false sense of victory emboldened Osama bin Laden for one. He made numerous direct references to the power of the holy warriors in defeating Russia as a pretext and proof that a similar defeat could be bestowed upon America.

    I think we recall how that turned out, and how the response to that (which, IMO, was far from perfect) has lead you to the conclusion you are in now.

    So, I think you need to study up on your history and your subject matter. :)

    No, I wouldn't fight for honour; I would refuse to be intimidated, however, by a bunch of petulant spoilt Saudis and their human arsenal. There is a middle ground between the bellicose "kill 'em all!" and your appeasement, you know...

    E_S
  20. DarthQuellonis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2005
    star 4
    A middle ground of weakness, we either need to crush them totally or withdraw, it's that simple, black and white.
    I don't care if you the President of the United States, you still see it from a western viewpoint and you don't use the right counter-insurgent strategies. However, since you did you "Master" thesis on this topic, do you care to highlight your view on how to deal with al-Qaida? All I see is defensive remarks covering your inability to adapt to insurgents who have calculated their strategy for a long period of time.
  21. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    No, we're responsible for the current situation. To leave now would be the height of irresponsibility-look at Somalia. We left before we should there too, and there's still an ongoing civil war with no end in sight.
  22. DarthQuellonis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2005
    star 4
    What does Somalia matter, or Iraq? The only thing the US achieves in Iraq is casualties. Casualties, reduces strength, and forces the deployment of fresh infantry divisions. Somalia is war torn, Africa is war torn, the US can't do anything to stop people from fighting. Stay in Iraq, fine make yourself a target for the militias, it doesn't achieve anything! Stop being a GI, and start thinking about how the world really is, just because a few Iraqis seemingly appreciate your presence when your around doesn't mean they don't secretly despise you and help the militias.
  23. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9

    Bud, when you actually go somewhere beyond your own proto-fascist country, then maybe you can tell me how to think.
  24. DarthQuellonis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2005
    star 4
    Now your just ignoring my comments. Why don't you tell me how to "win" as you call it the "War on Terror."
    Nobody knows how to win that is of any political party, nor does the military because they are oblivious to change, and instead focus on conventional tactics and strategies.
  25. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    nor does the military because they are oblivious to change, and instead focus on conventional tactics and strategies.

    Really?

    PPOR.

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