Terrorism, Security, and Discrimination: Are We Going Too Far?

I would hope the same incident by someone black, Asian, white etc. would be taken just as seriously.

well, i'm a white guy and i've made jokes about bombings and such in public and i haven't been hassled by anyone.

 

Jedi Merkurian:

That's because, according to the Secret Service, not all the school shooters were white suburban male students.

http://www.secretservice.gov/ntac/chicago_sun_20001016/shoot15.htm

 

Actually, I don't disagree with paying closer attention to those whom we think might be suspected Islamic militants.

I'm just wondering whether or not we're getting too focused on informing and reporting.

One of the main points of my original post was that the government is so busy talking about the need for 'security', yet only 2% of airport luggage STILL gets screened. That's 98% of onboard cargo hold baggage hitting planes without the x-ray first.
We stop and inspect only a fraction of ship cargoes. I find these two areas to be of great potential danger, and I'm concerned they're getting the short shrift when compared to things like encouraging the 'reporting' of suspicious activity. That can be VERY subjective; I have an egyptian classmate and we got into a rip-roaring fight about the israeli/palestinian conflict and he made some comments about the US reaping what it had sowed with 9/11 by supporting Israel and not caring enough about muslims. I disagreed with him, but I didn't think he was a terrorist.
Now, if I really had gotten pissed off, perhaps, with a little bit of embellishment (since the argument wasn't witnessed), I could have gotten him into trouble.
Would the fact that he goes on arab news websites and IMs his surgeon uncle in cairo make him suspicious? Probably. Could he get investigated on my say-so? Yeah, and that scares me. The USSR used to be like that. There's a tone in here that sounds awful machiavellian amongst some people.

It's okay to play a prank on someone but this was the wrong one to play. And a bad example to use as abuse of power or profiling.

I agree with you 100% here. It's very difficult to strike a middle ground between not violating rights, discriminating, and protecting. While I agree with all who feel that the actions of those three were stupid, it's not their incarceration and investigation that bothered me, but the fact that they were kicked out of residency without being charged with anything. That is simply too much, and the argument "well they shouldn't have joked about it" is not a reason to ruin their lives.

Anyway, my overall point here is: is america focussing too much on stuff like this and not enough on things like airport, port, and border security?

NOTE: Jedismuggler, great statistics.

Peace,

V-03

 

Med. Student: Fla. Scare Was Mistake

Sun Sep 15, 9:23 PM ET
By TIM REYNOLDS, Associated Press Writer

DAVIE, Fla. (AP) - A Miami hospital says it no longer wants the three Muslim medical students who were detained for 17 hours after a woman said she overheard them discussing terror plans. The men later said the incident was simply a misunderstanding.
The head of Larkin Community Hospital in Miami said Sunday he had received more than 200 e-mails after the incident, some threatening.

"Obviously, nothing is final," said Dr. Jack Michel, president and chief executive officer of Larkin. "Our primary objective is to take care of patients. I don't know how that could be done with all this media coverage."

He said the medical school where the men are studying, Ross University, had agreed to transfer them to a different training program.

Kambiz Butt, 25, said Sunday that he and Ayman Gheith, 27, and Omar Choudhary, 23, simply want to clear their names and be allowed to continue their education in the United States.

"We're medical students. We are not terrorists," Butt said, flanked by Gheith and Choudhary. "Our concern in life is to become doctors. We want to help people. We do not want to hurt."

Butt, the only one of the students to speak at a news conference, also said all were worried about their futures but harbor no resentment toward the woman who told authorities she overheard them discussing terrorist plans Thursday at a restaurant in Calhoun, Ga.

"We're in a state of shock and we are scared," Butt said. "But I'd like to tell the American people that we are not a threat."

The woman who called authorities, Eunice Stone of Cartersville, Ga., said she heard the students talking about blowing up buildings and laughing about the Sept. 11 attacks. She also said she heard the students saying that a terrorist event was looming on Sept. 13.

"Not once did we mention 9-11. Not once did we mention anything about 9-13, nor did we joke about anything of that sort," Butt said. "She was probably just eavesdropping on our conversation and might have heard a few key words that she misconstrued."

Butt said he believes Stone was attempting to be "a patriot for America."

Stone stood by her report of what she heard and said she would do the same thing again.

"I am not a racist, and I am not ignorant," she told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. "I was just trying to do what's best."

Brett Newkirk, one of four attorneys representing the students, called the situation "an incident of misunderstanding."

"They are Americans, just like any other American, who are proud to be American, who want to fulfill the American dream, and who were on the road to doing that when the American nightmare happened to them," Newkirk said.

David Kubiliun, another attorney for the men, said all three are U.S. citizens. Gheith is a naturalized U.S. citizen born in Jordan.

The three students were in two cars and en route to Miami on Friday when authorities stopped them on Interstate 75 after one of the vehicles allegedly went through a toll plaza without paying.

"They didn't blow the toll," Newkirk said, without elaborating.

Officials at Ross University, which is based in New York City but has a campus on the Caribbean island of Dominica, did not immediately return calls for comment on Sunday.

 

Excellent article 1stAD.

Thanks.

V-03

 

Yes, thanks for the article. All my comments thus far were based on what I heard on the news the day it was happening. Haven't had a lot of access to news since that day and I stand corrected on some details.

It still comes down to their word against hers. I'm going to give the waitress the benefit of the doubt unless someone else can come forward and believably state they overheard the same conversation and prove she was completely off-base. I'd like to believe no one is that dumb to joke about such a thing, but I also like to believe that no one is that dumb to report something that is a complete lie as well.

And I do agree that we need to stop kidding ourselves on the airport, border and port security. All the pricked up ears in the country are of rather negligible use compared to simply having tighter security in these areas.

 

When I saw it on the news I thought it odd that terrorists would speak in english about something so crucial, but I did remember the terrorist the day before 9-11 bragging and being stupid so who knew for sure?

 

And this still doesn't address the point that we haven't done profiling of suburban teenaged white males in the aftermath of all the high school shootings.

I refer back to the last paragraph of my previous post. What do you think happened?

 

I'd give neither party the benefit of the doubt, since there doesn't seem to be any corroborating evidence for either claim. But it does seem a bit odd that no one else in the vicinity heard this alleged terrorist plot except for the waitress...

 

It seems to me that perhaps the waitress was overeager to 'do her part', or even craving 15 minutes. It does happen.

And the climate is certainly right for it.

V-03

 

I suspect that it was a little bit of both. I'm sure she was acting suspicious to them so they decided to mess with her a little. So she took it out of hand and made the report. I'm also sure she was looking for her 15 minutes as well. As I see it, it was an unfortunate occurance.

 

Is there an anti-muslim climate?

I think Che and Vaderize are jumping at shadows, and blowing one incident up out of proportion.

 

I watched Donahue last night, and on the show were the accused, and the accuser.

My observations.....

The interns were sincere. They hold no hatred or anger agianst the woman that accused them. Their only motive was to clear their names....for christ sakes, they are young med students looking for a better life. One of them pointed out that he was a muslim, and that his God does not condone violence and hatred.

The sister of the accuser called into the show...much to the dismay of the accuser I may add. The sister told everyone that her sister was a racist, and had racist motivations for making the call. After that part of the interview, the waitresses demeaner changed, and she got angry at times. Or should I say her lawyer got angry. (as she spoke very little) In my opinion, the waitress and her lawyer WERE NOT credible, often resorting to lie's to get their point across. They got defensive, which is one of the first signs of lying.

Based on last nights interview, I believe the interns. I believe that this woman IS a racist.

This goes to prove, that people do not learn by past mistakes.......

 

It's a sad fact that in todays world you are guilty until proven innocent especially if you are Middle Eastern and aged 17-45.

I rememeber coming to the US and being asked "Have you ever or do you ever plan to be a communist?" Can we now expect to be asked at the airports "Have you ever or do you ever plan to be a terrorist?"

 

I think Che and Vaderize are jumping at shadows, and blowing one incident up out of proportion.

It's not the incident itself that worries me all that much, it's whether or not it becomes a trend.

Only time will tell.

V-03

 

Vaderize03:

Personally, I think that to an extent, American Muslins need to take some steps to prevent it from becoming a trend.

1. Do not complain about the current level of suspicion. There has been 20+ years of terrorist attacks, the vast majority (at a minimum - the Wall Street Journal has a report that indicates there may have been the involvement of terrorists in the Oklahoma City attack) of which have been committed by Islamic militants.

2. Condemn terrorist attacks in the name of Islam, like the murder-suicide bombing in northern Israel CNN just reported.

3. ASSIST the FBI and DOD in the war on terror.

 

It's not the incident itself that worries me all that much, it's whether or not it becomes a trend.

Vaderize, have you considered that you may be helping turn this "incident" into a "trend"? Take a look back at this thread to see an example of what I mean.

In your first post, you said, My gut tells me that the waitress was probably giving them dirty looks (the three being middle-eastern in appearance), they got annoyed, and starting making jokes about bombings and friday the 13th, as a vent to their irritation. The ensuing situation then developed.

Then, in later posts, you (and others) treated your gut reaction as if it were the complete and honest truth of the situation. How is this any different from what you accuse others (including the government) of doing? Isn't racial profiling an attempt to follow a gut reaction as well (albeit, backed by some statistical proof, as my brother has shown)?

Kimball Kinnison

 

If the accusations charged by Eunice Stone's sister are proven true (specifically, that the waitress was racist and had racist motivations), would this change anyone's opinion of the situation? Or would this particular incident still be considered an innocent mistake iun the name of Patriotism and safety?

Just curious.

 

Cheveyo:

Are they sure it was Ms. Stone's sister? Anyone can call those shows and say anything. For all we know, it could be a setup by someone who wants to make Ms. Stone look bad.

 

I want to share something with you.

My best friend and a group were going to an Anime Convention in Baltimore from Puerto Rico. They had a layover in Orlando. The group was about twelve people, a mix of guys and gals, ranging from 18 to 23 years of age and mostly all white.

They boarded the plane for Baltimore when the pilot announced they had some "security concerns."

Suddenly, three federal agents enter the plane and ask my friend and his group to step out of the plane.

They were lead to a lonely terminal where they were separated and instructed to keep quiet and they were kept under guard/

For the next 12 hours they were interrogated one by one by federal agents who accused them (and screamed to them) of being terrorists. . .

All of this to a group of admitted Anime freaks (and nerds!)

Needless to say, they lost their plane. They had to take a much later plane and they arrived at Baltimore at around 3 o'clock in the morning, having lost their hotel reservations and being basically on the street for the night.


All of this because somebody had mentioned to a security guard that they thought they had heard them say that the plane was going down.


This is the state of American paranoia right now. Probably somebody heard them talking Spanish, didn't understand them and freaked. Just because of that, a group of quiet, shy kids was put through hell.

I know it isn't as dramatic as the story of the med students, but it is a bit more extreme becase it wasn't a case of racial profiling (they all pass as Anglos and have American accents) but a case of hearsay which is scarier.

 

1. Do not complain about the current level of suspicion. There has been 20+ years of terrorist attacks, the vast majority (at a minimum - the Wall Street Journal has a report that indicates there may have been the involvement of terrorists in the Oklahoma City attack) of which have been committed by Islamic militants.

meekly accepting injustices "for the greater good for the duration of the emergency" sets a dangerous precedent. if you give the powers that be more authority, they won't give it back without a fight. "the duration of the emergency" has a tendency to go on for quite some time.

2. Condemn terrorist attacks in the name of Islam, like the murder-suicide bombing in northern Israel CNN just reported.

so for Muslims to be treated fairly they have to pass an ideological litmus test? are there any other opinions they should have? any other prepared statements you'd like them to read in front of the camera?

personally, i'm not of Middle Eastern descent, nor am i a Muslim. however, i don't feel any particular obligation to actively denounce terrorism in order to avoid police harassment. in fact, i find the suggestion that i should insulting.

3. ASSIST the FBI and DOD in the war on terror.

i would rather scrub my face with handfuls of broken glass than assist the FBI or the DOD in their current warmongering. i'm far more afraid of and opposed to both organizations than i am of al-Qaida.

 

JediSmuggler, it was my understanding that Ms. Stone had acknowledged that it was her sister. I didn't watch the program, though, so perhaps someone else can shed light on that.

Corran_Horn_, you mentioned that someone may have heard them speaking Spanish. Couple that with someone thinking they heard something about the plane going down... and there is your profiling.

On a side note: Not all incidents are racially spurred. I know of at least one case (although I cannot now locate the report) where someone was pulled from a plane because he had cracked a joke to a flight attendant about the lack of security and the apparent ease of carrying something aboard. The man was detained by authorites.

To add to the discussion of possible racial profiling in the name of heightened security, I pose the following, from cnn, dated 21 September, 2002:

ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- Airlines are investigating at least five reported incidents this week in which people of Arab descent were removed from domestic flights because they were considered to be threats to security, CNN has learned.

None of the men was arrested in the incidents, which involved three separate airlines.

The pilots who removed passengers were not acting without authority, said Roland Herwig, a spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration. "The pilot has all of the leeway on a flight once the (cabin) door is closed," he said.

In one incident, Ashraf Khan, a Pakistani-American, said he was asked Monday to leave a Delta Air Lines flight from San Antonio to Dallas, Texas. The flight's captain told Khan the crew did not feel safe with him onboard, Khan told reporters.

Because it was the last flight out for the day, Khan said, he missed three other connecting that were to take him to his brother's wedding in Pakistan.

"Just because the people who did this were Muslims does not mean that all the Muslims are bad," Khan said in a written statement.

"We are aware of the incident," a Delta Airlines representative told CNN. "We take this matter very seriously. Delta does not condone discrimination in any form. We are looking into the incident."

Late Friday, Delta released an internal memo to employees from President and COO Fred Reid, reminding employees of Delta's nondiscrimination policy. He directed employees that suspicious passenger behavior, not their skin color, race or national origin should be the reason for passenger removal.

"Don't let last Tuesday's (September 11) events change you into someone suspicious of people just because of the way they look," Reid wrote. "If you do that, then the terrorists will have won."

On the Tuesday following Khan's removal from a jet, two Northwest Airlines pilots bailed out of the cockpit on ropes while their plane sat on the tarmac at Dulles International Airport outside Washington. An Arab man was removed from the plane.

The pilots left the plane because the flight crew "perceived" a threat, said a Northwest spokesman. In Minnesota, police at the Minneapolis-St. Paul airport received a call Thursday about three suspicious men at a Northwest gate. The three were booked on a flight to Salt Lake City, Utah, said police, who checked with the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service and searched the trio's luggage.

The three checked out, but weren't allowed on the plane because their presence on the flight concerned passengers and the crew, airline managers told the trio. Northwest booked them on a Delta flight to Salt Lake City, officials said.

Arriving in Salt Lake City, the men told reporters their treatment in Minnesota left them feeling depressed and discriminated against.

Also Thursday, a Delta flight from Atlanta, Georgia, to Washington was delayed when a passenger identified as a 15-year-old boy of Saudi descent was removed from the plane. The FAA confirmed that one passenger had been removed.

And in a third incident Thursday, an Egyptian-American, Maged Eisherbiny, said he was removed from a United Airlines flight from Chicago, Illinois, to

 

Kimball_Kinnison

Vaderize, have you considered that you may be helping turn this "incident" into a "trend"? Take a look back at this thread to see an example of what I mean.

I fail to see how by simply reporting an event and my reaction to it. This is a message board; I doubt posts here help 'set a trend' in american security planning and execution.

In your first post, you said, My gut tells me that the waitress was probably giving them dirty looks (the three being middle-eastern in appearance), they got annoyed, and starting making jokes about bombings and friday the 13th, as a vent to their irritation. The ensuing situation then developed.

Then, in later posts, you (and others) treated your gut reaction as if it were the complete and honest truth of the situation. How is this any different from what you accuse others (including the government) of doing? Isn't racial profiling an attempt to follow a gut reaction as well (albeit, backed by some statistical proof, as my brother has shown)?

There is a HUGE difference between 'feeling' something in your 'gut' and expressing those feelings as policy. Yes, I was admitting to what amounted to profiling-and I am ashamed of it. I think that we could be on the slippery slope here. I also examined the discontent I had with those 'gut' feelings-look back through this post to see what I mean . To feel one way and keep it to oneself is a far cry from creating an atmosphere of condoning said feelings (applies to many things, not just profiling).

Peace,

V-03

 

i would rather scrub my face with handfuls of broken glass than assist the FBI or the DOD in their current warmongering. i'm far more afraid of and opposed to both organizations than i am of al-Qaida.

Ummm.... WTH?

Last time I checked, the FBI didn't fly a plane into a building and kill 3,000 Americans who were just going about doing their everday jobs.

 

OMG!!!! Dude, I personally know Omar, one of the 3 guys from Florida. He was a grade lower than me and I helped out their Mens choir once in awhile. LOL Weird coincidence. The guy's harmless, but I wouldn't be surpised if he was pulling a prank on the lady. She was probably being nosey and they thought they'd scare her to teach her a lesson.

so weird