TESB, ROTS, CW2 & the case of the inter-connected saga!

Bear with me...

A lot of people, myself included, were let down by the lack of force ghost explaination in ROTS. I have now got over this initial feeling, and while not really giving any explaination for the force ghost "trick" I thought this was a cool little spot...

In the finished film version of ROTS the dialogue we are left with about the subject of Qui-Gn retaining (part of) his identity is this:

YODA: IN YOUR SOLITUDE ON TATOOINE, TRAINING I HAVE FOR YOU
KENOBI: TRAINING?
YODA: AN OLD FRIEND HAS LEARNED THE PATH TO IMMORTALITY, ONE WHO HAS RETURNED FROM THE NETHERWORLD OF THE FORCE..YOUR OLD MASTER...
KENOBI: QUI-GON???
YODA: HOW TO COMMUNE WITH HIM, I WILL TEACH YOU

Clearly, Yoda has already learned how to commune with Qui-Gon but we see no evidence of this in the saga...or do we?

Note the use of the words "an old friend" in the above speech and then consider this dialogue from TESB:

YODA: GOOD...CALM,YES.THROUGH THE FORCE MANY THINGS YOU WILL SEE.OTHER PLACES. THE FUTURE...THE PAST. OLD FRIENDS LONG GONE"

Now, the observant amongst you will see where I am going with this.

Look at my icon - it features a scene from CW Volume 2. Yoda sees a vision of a young Anakin & Qui-Gon by the familiar tree on Dagobah - a great scene.

Look what it shows:

OLD FRIEND LONG GONE: QUI-GON
PAST: A YOUNG ANAKIN
FUTURE: WHERE YODA WILL TEST LUKE IN HIS OWN FUTURE
OTHER PLACES: DAGOBAH - THE PLANET YODA NOW KNOWS WILL BE PART OF HIS FUTURE, AND ALSO THE PLANET SOME BELIEVE LUKE HAD SEEN PREVIOUSLY IN A DREAM.

I believe this scene clearly shows us Yoda communicating with Qui-Gon thru the force (Qui-Gon telling Yoda Anakin is ready for his final trial) and with this scene no further Qui-Gon scene was needed in ROTS!

Hope that was clear! Any comments?

 

So basically you think the CW2 Cartoon explains the ghost theory thus meaning there really is no plot hole in RotS, right?

Let's be careful. Remember this Forum is to discuss events from within the movies and no where else. So if there is discussion from this, let's keep it as close to the movies as possible ... though that might be difficult since it centers around the Clone Wars Cartoon.

 

im not saying it EXPLAINS the force ghost theory but it does provide us with a visual link to what yoda says in ROTS & makes it seem as if it is not completely out of the blue when he mentions Qui-Gon. (Of course, there is also the moment in AOTC when he hears Jinn's voice).

Please keep this thread in the saga forum, it does also relate to the movies and the saga as a whole.

Plus, I have always been a big supporter of the Saga forum as u may well know

 

Don't worry. I'm pretty liberal and usually allow borderline topics to develop before I make a decision on what to do.

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As far as it providing a visual link, I can agree with that. Though I would much rather just use my imagination when thinking about how Yoda and Qui-Gon communicated and such.

 

A few comments here...

Why is the force ghost thing a plot hole? Seriously, as "Non-Force Users" we could never understand how to merge with the force. It is beyond our comprehension. It's not like Yoda could have published a book on how to merge with the force and Jar-Jar Binks could have picked it up and made any sense of it. It's enough to know the Qui-Gon learned how to retain his identity and taught this particular power to Obi-Wan and Yoda. Where does force lightning come from? This isn't explained. It's a plot hole. Where is seeing the future through the force explained? It's not. It's a plot hole. Where is being able to deflect blaster fire with a lightsabre explained? Must be a plot hole.

Also, I only saw the Clone Wars once. Havn't gotten a chance to really pick through them. Is the vision of Qui-Gon with Anakin real, meaning did that really happen? Or is it a "Subtle Hint" dropped to Yoda?

Carnage

 

WOOT! awesome post.

 

i think the fact people see the force ghost thing as being a plot hole is due to the fact it seems very contrived that only yoda, obi1 and later anakin know this ability.

why dont other jedi vanish and return as ghosts?

it was never really explained in the films

 

Yea that's really it in a nutshell. The retaining of one's identity is something new in the context of the Star Wars story. Blocking blaster fire, spewing lightning from the fingertips and having visions are typical of the Jedi arts and therefore need no explanation since the characters themselves are well aware of these aspects. I think ultimately the lack of qui gon scene in ROTS is a matter of Lucas wanting to the chase and saving up the surprise value for Episode 4 and 5. At the point in the story where Episode 3 occurs, the audience who sees the films in numerical order as intended by the director has no reference to the idea of achieving immortality as Yoda calls it. In fact from the audience perspective they may think Yoda is simply talking about something mental in nature. Then in Episode 4 when we hear Obi Wan speak we suddenly get the idea and the hints given us in Episode 2 and 3 become clear. Then in episode 5 we see the ghostly figure of Obi Wan and are realise fully what Qui Gon was talking about.

I think the only real issue here is that we never know for sure how proficient he is with this practice. And perhaps that's why Lucas left it ambiguous. With no defining statement made, we can assume at the end of Episode 6 that Qui Gon found his place just like Anakin did; after dying but not vannishing. Ofcourse many will show reference to what it really means but the point is the audience being left with an open ended explanation can reflect on it on their own terms. This means that the core of the idea will reach more audience members and be more effective. Besides, the initial idea was that Qui Gon could only be heard not seen, but since Qui Gon has nothing to do with Luke's perspective wouldn't it be simpler to just assume that Qui Gon never revealed himself to Luke because they never made a connection in life? This gives the idea that only Luke sees the force ghosts much more logic and reinforces the idea of Yoda teaching Obi Wan how to commune with Qui Gon.

 

I think the answer to why Qui-Gon is a Force ghost is answered in The Phantom Menace. Qui-Gon was different than any other Jedi in The Phantom Menace. He believed in the chosen one when no other Jedi did. In Attack Of The Clones it is clear that the Jedi still do not have complete faith in Anakin like Qui-Gon did, and of course, in Revenge Of The Sith all bets where off. But Anakin was the chosen one and Qui-Gon believed in him even when the other Jedi did not and he even stood up against the Jedi Council in defiance because of his faith in the Force, and when he lay dying he still believed. Now that's faith. So I believe G.L. answered the question as to why Qui-Gon retained his consciousness after death.

I believed Qui-Gon was given his consciousness by whatever created Anakin, because Qui-Gon believed in Anakin.

BTW, DarthWolvo I loved that scene in The Clone Wars cartoon with Qui-Gon and Anakin. I taped it but my wife taped over it but I didn't know it was a vision Yoda was having, because I only watched it once and must not have been paying attention. Another couple weeks and I'll own the DVD and I'll check it out.

 

I agree with you (if you look for plot-holes you're gonna find them), but I can't help myself from pointing out that the blaster deflection thing was explained.

Ep1-
"He sees things before they happen, that's why he appears to have such fast reflexes. It's a Jedi trait."

Ep4-
"Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them."


Yeah, I didn't need to say it. I should have more willpower

I didn't see much of Clone Wars, could you explain what happens in this scene?


"An old friend who has returned from the netherworld of the force."
"Through the force you will see... old friends long gone."

This observation makes the ROTS scene seem so much more worthwhile to me.

 

thanks for the comments guys

i really do think it is a worthwhile observation and a cool connection (intended or not) withinn the saga

in the clone wars cartoons we see yoda have a vision of qui-gon and an Ep1 anakin in dagobah, anakin says he is scared of going into the tree and qui-gon says if he is the chosen one he should conquer his fear and enter teh tree alone. they also mimic the luke-yoda dialogue of "what's in there" "only what you take with you"

the scene then cuts to yoda waking from his meditation then when the jedi council discuss whether anakin is ready to be made a jedi knight, yoda says he has had a vision which indicates anakin will soon face his final test

it really is an excellent scene, hence the icon!

buy clone wars volume 2 when it comes out - there are lots of cool things like this in there

 

I didn't think Qui-Gon and Anakin were supposed to on Dagobah in The Clone Wars cartoon. I thought they were on Naboo. And perhaps this scene did actually take place after the Queen returned to Naboo.

 

Master IRONCLAD, you disappoint me

wait until you see it again

100% dagobah
100% yoda force vision

 

And here is the proof...


[image=http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/WOLVODAVE/vlcsnap-44198.png]

 

ok

 

Wow... just... wow.

AC2

 

i agree, somewhat...
Qui-Gon was the only Jedi who truly trusted the Force, therefore when he died, he became One with the Force.
had he lived, he may have even sniffed out Palpadious...

 

So as far as the Clone Wars go (And I know it's not Canon or whatever), but do you think it's implying that this scene with Anakin and Qui-Gon ACTUALLY occured?

Carnage

 

definitely not

it is am image presented by qui-gon to yoda thats purpose is twofold:

1. it tells him anakins final test is near - the Nalvaan test

2. it shows him his own possible future: on dagobah testing a young skywalker

 

I don't know if one is meant to up one's own forum but i'm so disappointed this thread din't get more of a reaction the first time round

has ne1 got anymore comments now CW2 has been released on DVD and has refreshed more people's memories to the scene i am talking about?

 

Do you believe that this connection explains why Luke said that Dagobah seemed pretty familiar, like from a dream or something ... Was it because his father was there a long time ago before him????

 

not at all

if u read the post carefully i say anakin & qui-gon on dagobah is merely a vision sent by qui-gon to yoda

this vision helps yoda decide he must flee to dagobah & also tells him anakin will soon face his final trial

the familiar prescence luke senses on dagobah is yoda - who was present at his birth

 

You could be right at some point ... Although, I would say that Luke never said anything about Yoda being familiar ... He refered to the place, like if he sensed it, or maybe he saw it in a dream, or a vision he used to have, but who really knows what happened there ... Maybe you are right that it was because of Yoda's presence at his birth.

Many people expected that in ROTS there was supposed to be a scene where Luke, still being baby, stops there with Obi Wan, but it wouldn't make sense at all ... Still, I think that those particular lines from Luke in TESB could be connected to something in particular, which I still haven't figured out.

I thought that by Anakin going there with Qui Gon, if that really happened, and Luke being Anakin's son, then there could be any connection why Luke said that Dagobah seemed pretty familiar ...

This is something that just came into my mind, although I understand what you said on your previous post ...

Now, I need you to clear one thing for me ... Did that scene in CW2 really happen at some point, or was it just a vision that Qui Gon sent to Yoda???

The image is about a 9 year old Anakin with the late Qui Gon ... As far as I am concern, this could never happened during TPM, or after (before AOTC) ... Therefore, it could be true that it is only an image that was sent to Yoda ... But, I find this to be a mystery ...

 

qui-gon & anakin NEVER went to dagobah

it is a vision sent by qui-gon to yoda which shows...

1. anakin is about to face a test of character (mirror test)
2. yoda's own possible future (on dagobah instructing a young jedi)

in this way the vision shows the past (young anakin), the future (yodas future on dagobah), old friends long gone (qui-gon jinn)

but i say again - it is NOT showing an event which actually took place, it is just a symbol for the possible future of both anakin skywalker & yoda

 

I really got your point ...