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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

JCC Texas youth football league says trophies are for champions

Discussion in 'Community' started by DAR, Oct 23, 2013.

  1. Coruscant

    Coruscant Chosen One star 7

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    Feb 15, 2004
  2. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
    And yet the dismissal of meritocracy sits so beautifully with the comments made in that blog post I linked to, that I'm kinda enjoying seeing where you sit on all this Rouge.
     
  3. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002
    i hardly think it should be surprising for anyone who's followed my posting career that i mock, with gusto, whiny idiots whining at length about the imaginary whining of hordes of mythical whiners

    i still dont care about the trophy thing
     
  4. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
  5. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Yeah... no. Universities are afraid to fail people because metrics determining the quality of the institution depend in part on the passing rate, meaning that excessive rigidity in the grading model reflects poorly on the college in the long run. In addition, students that are allowed to progress through the curriculum with minimal fuss are significantly less likely to drop out of their studies - that scenario is undesirable for the aforementioned rankings rationale in addition to the significantly more obvious financial one. Consequently there's pressure from overhead for traditionally difficult subjects, such as mathematics, to ease off on what would constitute more realistic failure rates in favor of shepherding students through their prerequisites. It is for this reason that allowances are made on the side of higher grades - the myth of parental complaints is, well, just that; such instances are in fact so rare that the one incident every two years is met with a sort of bemused disbelief by the faculty.

    Admittedly these are purely anecdotal observations based on my own experiences in academia, but then again a look into the actual research suggests that sociologists are highly divided on their assessments of Gen Y,* so we're all stuck with that level of rigor in this thread anyway.

    *Edit: Funnily enough there is a sociological study about the surprising lack of academic rigor in the usual discourse on Gen Y: http://researchbank.swinburne.edu.au/vital/access/manager/Repository/swin:15767
     
  6. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

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    Apr 17, 2006
    Ramza if only they didn't give you a trophy for participation in 5th grade, you might have grown up to be solojones or ender. You really misses out.
     
  7. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 27, 2000
    Ramza, all I know is my grad school profs told us several times that the university had basically said they couldn't fail anyone from the film program not matter how many rules they broke, no matter how many unsafe things they did on set, because parents had threatened to sue. As if a degree is just a product you buy, not something you're supposed to earn.

    I like that you snipped that quote from me out of context though. Since what I was referring to there was wocky's inability to understand the very simple notion of what "everyone gets a trophy means". I was saying he's being his wocky self in persisting in complicating a simple concept like that.


    Also, lol my failures.
     
  8. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002
    oh dont misunderstand me. i was referring to pervasive character flaws. hence "failings", not "failures". but im sure you dont have any of those, just like mommy said :)

    its the world that's the problem, not you. all those lazy people in your generation, they just dont know how lucky they are to have you around
     
  9. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Well, in fairness, that could be particular to the school in question, but my experience is literally contrary and I work at one of those large public universities you attributed the phenomenon to, so it's either significantly muddier than either stereotype would suggest or somebody is the exceptional case here.

    This is why I hate anecdotal evidence. :p
     
  10. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    Apologies. I simply misunderstood what you said, since you noted that "at the championship" both winners and losers received trophies. The questions about whether I was comprehending you weren't sarcastic--they were literal. As I said, our experiences playing sports as children were apparently quite different, so I have to figure out what sort of thing you actually did.

    Having established that point, though, could you clarify something else for me? If the trophies were meaningless, how were they simultaneously meaningful enough to contribute to a culture of entitlement?

    I don't really follow your line of logic here. You went to one of the premiere film schools in the country. You freely admit that several students performed better than you. How exactly is this possible? Is it your proposition that certain human beings are born with an innate, perfectly refined talent to simultaneously coach people to pretend convincingly, operate machines that weren't invented until the 1880s, juggle budgets, and do everything else that is required of a good director? Because I would think it was much more likely that even if some people did have a certain knack for it, it still took an incredible amount of hard work to refine to the point that they could be called the best in a competitive academic environment. It would also be my tendency to admit that even among the truly mediocre, film-making takes an incredible amount of hard work, as both shooting and editing can be arduous, mind-numbing tasks, apart from the logistical complexities required. I might in fact note, as someone on these forums once did, that while making a single work of art like a music record can be hard, films contain multiple whole works of art inside them as mere components. All of which makes it very bizarre for you to note that the problem is a "lack of work ethic." They seem pretty demonstrably willing to work hard.

    Likewise, consider your other examples. you criticize people for their dead end, low wage jobs in food service as they try in vain to make a career in the entertainment industry. But does this really highlight a lack of work ethic? Couldn't they live probably as easily but more comfortably in some other sort of job somewhere. Administration? A call center? Certainly most college graduates aren't confined to busing tables. They have in fact taken on labor that can be potentially physically demanding, and is in fact socially unesteemable for the sake of their dreams. It's the opposite of the complaint you claim to have with them.

    You don't have to be "lazy" to fail to recognize the value of an internship. You don't have to be arrogant to over-estimate your chances of success. You've already given us plenty of indicators that these people are willing to work hard and do things that are demeaning. The problem you are outlining has nothing to do with work ethic at all. It is an issue of good counseling. I'm glad that you had the foresight, the mentors, or both, in order to chart a successful, realistic career plan. But that's not the same thing as somehow being more valorous or noble or hard-working than the rest of your whole generation. As you have presented things, their real flaw is not that they haven't worked hard at some things. It's that they've been stupid, and not understood what it was necessary to work hard at.

    Your other complaints ring similarly hollow. Lots of young people feel unfulfilled and under-utilized in entry level positions? They are probably correct. That's why most people end up getting promoted out of such positions to something more demanding. Never mind that your complaint comes at a time of especially high under-employment, where it is literally the assessment of economists and scholars that many people are taking on jobs that don't let them utilize their talents. It's very easy to ascribe every problem to some great moral degeneracy, or to explain differences in success by some sort of personal flaw possessed by others that you don't share. But you don't seem to be taking a lot of time to examine whether that's actually true. You gloss over the complicating factors that might also explain people's struggles, and flatly ignore many of the merits of what they are doing and have done. It's a satisfying but grossly incomplete way of explaining the world.
     
  11. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 27, 2000
    lawlz, that's a great picture of someone the opposite of my mom. My family gives each other **** and my mom told me I was wrong all the time as a kid. I don't care if I'm a bit arrogant about things I'm good at. I've worked for it. And was never, ever told I just deserved anything because I was so special. I wouldn't have gotten where I am if I had been told that. Which is kind of my whole point.


    Wocky, I mean there were people at my school with more naturally noticeable directing talents. They were better visual directors. I was definitely better than most at casting and working with various departments and within a budget. But I didn't have the most innate visual talent. I still made overall better films than a lot of the more innately visionary and gifted visual directors. Mostly because a lot of them didn't spend any time on things like sound, score, or actors. Those aren't as sexy as cool costumes and fancy shots.


    EDIT: Oh and I don't think all my classmates are lazy. Obviously I exaggerate. I just know that a huge, huge number of them said, "I don't want to drive 3 hours a day to LA and back for an unpaid internship. I'm going to enjoy my summer instead." Or "I already have 3 classes, I don't want to take more even though they're free and would give me skills for my career." Believe me, most of the people I knew were really confident in just how special and awesome their unremarkable short films were and deluded about how much everyone would laud them for those.

    And they don't have crap jobs because they are so passionate about film. They have crap jobs because they have no skills to work elsewhere, though some would like to.
     
  12. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002
    look everybody, solojones is talking to me about the "whole point"
     
  13. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 27, 2000
    The whole point of a post I made? Yeah. Fantastic reading comprehension as usual. You get a gold star because you did the bare minimum required to make a post there. Hooray for you!
     
  14. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002
    i already used that schtick like a page or two ago. try to keep up
     
  15. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 27, 2000
    You see, you're the one making the case that I'm mocking, though. You tried to mock me by mocking your own position. Not quite as successful rhethorically. But I understand, repeating your same hipster, self-important, "look i don't even care about this enough to capitalize. but i care enough to spend all day posting here and trying to get people to say i'm clever" schtick over and over without change for years probably gets you all confused.
     
  16. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002
    nobody has made that case at all. except maybe that weird newbie from new zealand

    you're attacking a made up group of enemies and ascribing their characteristics to your actual opponents. its the intellectual equivalent of the tea party
     
  17. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 27, 2000
    Well, you certainly make no points whatsoever, as a matter of course. That much is true. You're a walking Che Guevara t-shirt on a college freshman.
     
    Kyle Katarn likes this.
  18. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002
    this isnt debate club. im just here to poke at your obvious flaws
     
  19. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 27, 2000
    I'm aware of my flaws. I'm arrogant and condescending. And I don't care.
     
  20. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002
    lol that's ender. you WISH you had ender's flaws
     
    Zapdos likes this.
  21. Kyle Katarn

    Kyle Katarn Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 10, 1998
    And you wish you could come up with a funny retort.
     
  22. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 27, 2000
    Let's be careful what anyone wishes for, as that would likely bring about the end of the world Kyle.
     
  23. Kyle Katarn

    Kyle Katarn Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 10, 1998
    But will I get a participation trophy for just being there when the world ends?
     
  24. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    sj, thanks for the further clarifications, but I'd still largely stand by what I said. A decision like the ones you are describing is childish and unreasonable. That is not, though, the same thing as "laziness." Your criticism ultimately boils down to the fact that these people were unprepared to successfully navigate the early stages of a career in entertainment. Their approaches sound much more like popular media depictions of how success happens (lowly, ignored genius suddenly recognized) than a realistic insider's account. I don't see where that's a sign of entitlement, though. I knew nothing about how to be successful in my own career, sometimes to the point of even arguing angrily with my mentors before begrudgingly taking the advice they had which turned out to be correct. I didn't have enough exposure yet to tell what was worthwhile and what wasn't.

    To take another example Ender Sai was a diplomat before he moved to finance. He stills speaks of those days sometimes, when you engage him in long debates on foreign policy. Ultimately, though, he moved on because he felt dissatisfied with it, and liked other things more. Does this mean he was too lazy to find out what his chosen profession was actually about? Did his relative dissatisfaction somehow imply that he felt he was God's gift to the world, and got frustrated that no one responded well to his entitled attitude? Is his career change indicative of some deep flaw in his upbringing? Or is it perhaps the case that he didn't have perfect access to information about what he thought he wanted, and the first-hand experience prompted him to change his mind?

    The people that didn't take internships may not have done so simply because they hated hard work. It's at least as likely that they were trying to make judgments about what was worth their time and what wasn't. They didn't see the long-term benefits of the internship that you did. After all, you are talking about people who at a bare minimum went into a huge financial hole to earn a "Masters in Fine Arts." Likewise, for all the truth in your observation that it wasn't the right thing to focus on, cool costumes and sexy shots take a lot of hard work. It's not an every day occurrence. The people you are demonstrably willing to make sacrifices if they think it will improve their career or craft. For whatever reason, they didn't see that in this instance. That's regrettable, and they'll probably spend the rest of their lives paying for it. But it's not right to call those sort of errors presumption. It's often times simple ignorance. The same that I had when I started, that you probably had when you first considered film school, and that others who have careers can and have described. People don't deserve to be pilloried over that fact.
     
  25. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002
    you know, there's a "like" function for patting each other on the back, in case you'd like to spare the rest of us the autistic attempts at banter

    Most of the personal attacks were not a good idea, but this particular "autistic" comment crosses the line. Cut it out.