ST TFA Biggest Weakness

I've seen much discussion praising the film for its spirit, characters, and it's recapturing of the OT magic. I've seen other discussion complaining about plot holes.

For me, there is only one glaring weakness to the film and it's one I have not seen addressed. This weakness is also one of its biggest strengths which I will get to in a moment.

The film doesn't stand on its own in any way. I'm not pointing to the reboot nature of the plot, but more to the derivative nature of the characters and theme. Nothing works without the OT. Kylo Ren makes no sense without Vader. Han is introduced in a way that demands we know his character from before. The entire plot itself rests upon the strength of the OT.

This is a narrative weakness. Objectively, good stories stand on their own. Even for those who dislike TPM, you would have to objectively admit that the film stands on its own merit without requiring a viewer to see the OT first. This is a narrative strength in the PT that a viewer can start there and fully grasp what is going on. You cannot do that in TFA.

As I mentioned above, this is also TFA greatest strength. It continues the OT in a relatively smooth manner.

My question then for all TFA fans (I include myself in that) is how you genuinely feel this film all be viewed in 5-10 years. Is this a film that can be revisited over and over...or is it superficial fun that has no substance of its own and acts merely as a bridge from the OT to the ST?

 

In before the lock. We have a haters thread.

 

TFA's biggest weakness: not enough Luke Skywalker

 

true

 

It's the seventh sequel. How could it stand on its own with no reference to its predecessors.

 

Does ROTS stand on its own, then?

Was a complete newcomer on board with the idea that Luke Skywalker (who?) has returned to Tattooine (where?) to rescuer his friend Han Solo (who?) from the clutches of Jabba The Hutt (who?)

Also, it never ceases to amaze me when people who have probably seen every Star Wars film at least 30 times have the really genuine concerns for the well being of people who only watch it casually. These films are quite easy to follow. How far in to any Star Wars film do you need to be before you're like "mystical force, makes some people magic. There are good space wizards and bad space wizards. Got it."

 

Yes... friedbantha join us.

 

<generic rude comment>

 

Stand on its own as a narrative. The story makes no sense without the prior films.

Of course it should have references to the prior films - it's a sequel. But as a narrative every film stands on its own merits except TFA. The narrative makes no sense without knowing who Luke is, who Vader is, or hell...what the Millenium Falcon is. That's a narrative weakness.


THIS IS NOT A HATERS THREAD. I am a big fan of TFA. I'm simply discussing the strength of the narrative and how the film will be valued in the future once we have the rest of the films.

Even if you're someone who dislikes TPM, objectively speaking, it has an incredible narrative to offer with depth in both thematic and character development. It is possible to revisit TPM and explore that film, on its own, and evaluate what that film offers to the saga by itself.

I find this a difficult task with TFA.

I'm not hating. Just discussing. TFA does a fantastic job with other elements.

 

I have proof that the film STANDS on its own. I have several friends who never watched SW before, and they LOVED TFA.

</thread>

 

It needed more cowbell.

 

It borrows too many plot points from ANH. Nevertheless, it's still a great movie. It can easily be forgiven if 8 and 9 stand on their own.

 

Well that categorically proves me wrong about narrative issues. I suppose we should end the discussion then.

 

It would have been very easy to create a new set of films set in AGFFA, without little reference to previous characters, events or situations. Whether it would have been good or demonstrably better than what we got is much more open to interpretation.

 

Speaking from a personal experience...

While I do think that watching TFA without any prior knowledge of the SW universe would likely result in a lacking experience, I believe it can stand on its own nicely if the viewer is at least remotely familiar with the story and the characters (which, seeing as it's SW we're talking about, would be pretty much everyone). I wouldn't be here if that weren't the case. I'd only seen ANH (once, a few years ago) before I saw TFA, but I knew enough of the basics to be able to stay immersed in the story all the way through. Not once was I taken aback by the elements in the film I recognized as significant, but couldn't always tell why. On the contrary, the sense of discovery and wonder worked for the film--I felt just like Rey, as if I'd suddenly found myself in the middle of what I'd thought was a only myth up until then. Having heard of the magic of SW, but having never really experienced it before and then, all of a sudden, be thrown in the midst of it, played, I believe, a big role in why it was I left the theater a convert.

 

lly
Cannot deny that I felt a bit like this initially - all the hype was genuinely obnoxious,but its understandable from a financial standpoint that they did have to make a "safe" movie this time and I think they will take more risks going forward,I think its a very diplomatic movie for good reasons..not necessarily what i personally wanted but thats ok.

I still strongly believe this will be the non original Disney asset with the most longevity

 

Let me try to clarify. People are talking about whether they loved the story or were entertained by it. This isn't really the question.

Let us compare the narrative of The Phantom Menace with the narrative of The Force Awakens. Importantly, I am not discussing the subjective views of the films.

In The Phantom Menace we are told in the scroll that Jedi Knights have been dispatched as guardians of peace to resolve a trade dispute on a small planet of Naboo. Naboo is under a blockade and is a peaceful planet.

From the outset we know the setting of the story, the characters' motivations, and the state of the Galaxy. We are immediately introduced to our two protagonists and immediately thereafter introduced to our "phantom" antagonist via hologram. We are then set out on adventure to save the queen and end the blockade. Along our journey we meet new characters some of whom are brand new, others of which we may be informed such as Anakin. Even to someone who has never seen Star Wars Anakin is a compelling character - he is a slave boy with magical powers. The story follows a from a densely packed opening where quite a bit is actually happening, all of which we can follow as a viewer and understand even without having seen prior films.

In TFA, this is quite different. The film's opening crawl begins "Luke Skywalker has vanished." Well great. Who is Luke Skywalker? The Empire has crumbled? What's the Empire?

As you can see there is no context except through the lens of the prior films. This narrative issue continues. We are introduced to Poe and BB-8 (no issues there since they are new), but Poe gets a map to Luke Skywalker. The villainous Kylo Ren wants this map. None of this makes much sense without knowing who Luke is already. Indeed, if the opening crawl said "Bumbo Buttersworth has vanished" we wouldn't care or know why that matters.

It is all quite derivative.

In the end we still don't know the state of the galaxy or why Luke is hiding - adding another narrative problem. There is no conclusion. We are left wondering.

As I said from the beginning, this is also one of TFA greatest strengths. It is all very mysterious and we are all waiting at the edge of our seats to find out just what the hell is going on. Who is Rey? Why did Kylo turn? Who is Snoke? Why is Luke hiding? What is the resistance? Where did the first order come from? Etc. etc.

This is all fabulous as a cliffhanger leading us into the next part of the story.

The problem is in time this story may feel quite hollow. For fans of The Phantom Menace one of its greatest strengths is how it compliments the OT. It doesn't draw from the OT. It builds its own Galaxy on its own terms. It introduces new concepts like Padawans, a galactic senate, the Jedi Counsel, and yes...even midichlorians. All of these elements can be explored further upon repeat viewings.

The issue with TFA narrative structure is that it is, in a sense, unsubstantial. It relies on past events and characters for depth and future developments for intrigue. Once we learn where Rey is from, or why Kylo turned, or who Snoke is, the mystery will be lost. I fear the film will be greatly weakened once these things are learned.

Take, for example, another JJ Abrams film: Star Trek Into Darkness. This is not a film worth rewatching. Once the viewer knows who Kahn is, the story loses its sting. In fact, many things that happen make less and less sense once the viewer knows who he is. The film relied heavily on us knowing Kahn from the prior Wrath of Kahn for its value.

I fear this is the route for TFA, and I'm hoping someone can prove me wrong.

 

Sadly OP, this probably gonna go to the "haters" thread.

INB4 Lock...

Good post though, I was gonna do the same but you beat me too it.

 

Or you can continue where it belongs

 

I will now state this for the third time. I do NOT hate TFA. This is NOT a hate thread. I'm trying to discuss narrative concerns while still holding immense respect for the film itself.

 

Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean, but ROTS is the 3rd film. It can stand on its own, but for the experience to be enhanced, you need prior knowledge of the first and second. You must compare the first films if your going to do something like that. Plus, its the last in the PT saga, why even question if it can stand on it's own like ANH and TPM?

 

Lol. I'm tempted to. It seems like any criticism of the film equals hate... I'm very disheartened by that. I love TPM, but can easily engage with someone who is critiquing it. It has many flaws. I wish people could treat TFA the same way.

 

Wow, just wow. So you go the the 7th film of SW and still think the audience needs the movie telling them who Luke Skywalker is?

So you want TFA to sum up the characters and stories from the previous 6 movies? OMG.....
Just because someone living under a rock that also happened to go watch SW may not know who Luke Skywalker is?

Wow. Wow.

 

So you're advocating for the group of people who are only going to watch episode 7 then, while assuming that everyone who watched ROTS will have watched the others? Looks to me like yet another bit of mental gymnastics to bash TFA.

 

I think it only fails to stand alone mostly due to unanswered questions and a cliffhanger type ending otherwise like Star Wars it just has a lot of off screen story and characters we pick up in odd places.

Who is this old Ben? What is his deal with the scary guy in the black armor? What is going on in the bigger picture? What is the deal with the brash man and his friend the walking bear/dog? Why is this Luke kid so important and who are his parents? Why does old Ben pause and look like he is lying when the kid asks about his father (neat how thar worked...even as a kid before Empire came out I knew he was lying because of that cue and correctly guessed Vader was the father)?

I think it works as a stand alone despite clearly coming in the middle of the story somewhere and Phantom Menace possibly works even better but I don't see any of the others fitting into that mold too terribly well though Sith probably can work as well as it does in the series because we fail to ever get the brotherhood of Anakin and Obi-Wan or the love that can cause one to die from grief on the screen anyway.

Like Star Wars we just go along for the ride in The Force Awakens with little idea what is actually really going on. Happily befuddled with a trillion questions? Sounds like the middle of Broadway of really good Star Wars to me.