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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST TFA & fandom. Can we understand each other?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by CEB, Apr 3, 2016.

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  1. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    One of the things that is coming up repeatedly in squabbles is annoyance at being misunderstood and misinterpreted. But a lot of the time, the meaning that is taken from phrases is the accepted meaning of the phrase in question as here; "precious little", does actually mean "more or less nothing" to a reasonable person. If that's not the intended meaning, don't shout angrily about being misrepresented; clarify.
     
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  2. Torib

    Torib Jedi Master star 2

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    Jan 27, 2016
    I didn't see anyone shouting angrily. And unless I'm mistaken, "precious little" means "very little" which is a slightly different concept than "nothing".
     
  3. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

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    Mar 22, 2003
    But there is a difference , and you used exagerrated rhetoric ..

    and you can't tell me what I mean , its not up to you , it's up to me to give my opinion .

    if you're now talking about someone else - well I have to wonder if you're reporting accurately what they said .

    If you're arguing against what someone has said you can't just change it or then continue insisting : 'well what you're really saying is ___ ' , it's distortion .

    I mean you wouldn't want someone else distorting your opinion for you would you ?
    .
     
  4. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014

    "Precious little" doesn't mean "very little"; it is used for emphasis, not to quantify. Someone saying that there is precious little to like about something, for example, isn't saying "there are only one or two things to like about this"; they are emphatically saying that they dislike the thing in question.

    If that isn't what the intended meaning was, then the term has been misused, and the misunderstanding arises from incorrect usage, not from poor comprehension or wilful misinterpretation of meaning.

    gezvader28 ; if you're going to engage in communication, you have to allow for the possibility that the people you're communicating with will infer meaning from the things that you say. You might find communication more useful if you stopped acting as if the only possible lapse in understanding arises from the person reading your post, and instead attempted to clarify when you've been misunderstood. The fact that there is a discussion about the nuance of meaning shows that clarification is needed - why not aid the process by making your point clearer?
     
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  5. JediMatteus

    JediMatteus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Sep 16, 2008


    do i really need to spell this out.

    Han and Leia are not together. their only son is lost to the dark side. Han is now dead. Luke has nothing to show for the past 3o years. all the good he did in the eu, is wiped. non canon now. he has no legacy, Rey will get credit for the resurrection of the jedi, not Luke. Its a disaster
     
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  6. JabbatheHumanBeing

    JabbatheHumanBeing Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jul 14, 2015
    Thanks for contributing a new perspective to the conversation. You really moved the ball towards greater understanding.
     
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  7. Dagobah Dragonsnake

    Dagobah Dragonsnake Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 7, 2016
    JediMatteus
    Han and Leia have been together. We do not know the details of their life. Most likely the way they handled their relationship was in a manner that was best for them and it was a mutual thing. And shocking ... a Skywalker (Solo) did to the Dark Side. It is the story. Really bad things happen to good people too. What has Luke been doing for thirty years? We know what Han said, about the disaster with the Jedi training, and the problem with Kylo ... but thirty years have passed. We only know a snippet of his three decade story at this point. We also do not know what his search for the Original Jedi Temple had produced. Also, there is no crystal ball that tells us what the Luke / Rey relationship will bring, or what part Luke will take in the next two episodes as the heroes battle Snoke and the First Order. Luke now is the Obi-wan / Yoda type character (and in his mature years has seemed to do a lot more than Obi-wan did hanging out on Tatooine) while still being Luke. My feeling is that the storytellers will not have Luke say, "I tried once and it went south, so ... crap ... I give up." That would be inane. There is more to it than his initial upset, and the search for the Temple will be part of his solution.

    Regarding both the EU and Han being dead ... well that is accurate.
     
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  8. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Why did we have to have a Skywalker fall in 2 of the 3 generations we've had in the movies?
    Been there with Anakin falling, and Luke struggling with it in the OT.

    Show a Skywalker/Solo next generation kid handling the pressures of being the kids of the OT generation. And them stepping up to save the galaxy.
     
  9. Dagobah Dragonsnake

    Dagobah Dragonsnake Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 7, 2016
    I guess we need to blame Anakin. Maybe Shimi. Maybe Dath Plagueis. Maybe it is in the genes somewhere.

    Lucas decided to make the Skywalkers prone to this at some point going into ESB. He then, with full knowledge as he always had with authorizing any EU publication and story line, allowed doubling down with Jacen Solo in the EU. Jacen didn't work out so well either. The Dark Side struggle is embedded in the GFFA and seemingly the Skywalkers. It is a major element of the tale.
     
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  10. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 12, 2016


    What do you mean by "underselling?" I'm afraid I'm not getting the point you're making.

    Well, I'm not so sure about that:

    1. "Han and Leia are not together": It's strongly implied that their son's fall was the trigger for the separation (and that neither of them truly wanted it) and that they were hoping to repair the relationship.

    2. "Han is now dead": He died trying to do the right thing, evidencing his growth as a character from the first movie. This's actually a "good" thing (I still wish that he had survived, but it's a good story).

    3. "Luke has nothing to show...": Until we see Episode 8 and learn all the exacts, this's mistaking an unknown answer for a flaw.

    4. "Rey will get credit for the resurrection of the Jedi...": Throughout the movie, the important thing is finding Luke. Everyone says that. When Rey is told she should follow the Jedi path, it's to find Luke. Why find him? To bring back the Jedi. While Rey is an important character (she's a lead, after all), the movie hammers in that Luke is the one who's needed for the rise of the Jedi.
     
  11. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Ugh.
    Handling the Legacy of Vader is fine. Show visions/dreams of Vader's helmet and show people distrustful of them because of being related to Vader. Sort of like Anakin Solo in the JJK books.
    The Dark Side will always be there but I'm sick of it.
    And Cade had to deal with it in the Legacy comics.
    At least Jaina had a small fling in it and had her friends bring her back.
    They screwed Jacen up so bad. Stupid Lumiya ret-con. Messed up the point of Vergere's training.
    At least Cade's story was somewhat interesting before it just went back and forth again and again.
    Change the Saga up a bit.
     
  12. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 9, 2009
    If you watch Rey's interrogation scene closely, Kylo Ren has an air of privilege about him. He dismisses her as a "scavenger". He seems to believe he is entitled to all the benefits of being a Skywalker, including the power of the Dark Side. But he's afraid that in reality, he just doesn't have what it takes.

    I suspect that the larger arc of the ST will be Luke's self-sacrifice, ending the Skywalker line and giving the Force back to the people. Kylo Ren is a representation of the idea that Vader's redemption was only personal--that it does not undo his evil acts nor the ramifications thereof, and a repudiation of the idea of a privileged bloodline. Episode IX will literally be the final chapter in the Skywalker story, for there will be no more Skywalkers beyond that point.

    So I think Ben turning is important for the ST to have any real purpose.
     
  13. Darth Pig

    Darth Pig Jedi Knight star 2

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    Feb 21, 2016
    Your examples of Nostalgia pale into comparison to seeing characters for the first time in 30 years. Also comparing Indiana Jones to Star Wars, well then don't discount comparing TFA to Transformers cause they are on similar levels of suitability to validate ones argument.
     
  14. Stoneymonster

    Stoneymonster Force Ghost star 4

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    May 8, 2002
    Sorry, I don't follow.
     
  15. Darth Pig

    Darth Pig Jedi Knight star 2

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    Feb 21, 2016
    Many have complained about using comparisons between TFA and Transformers because they are not similarly well received.

    My comment is, waiting to see Indiana Jones on screen again compared to the OT crew is a similar level of comparison.


    Fact is SW is a beast unlike any other franchise. It transcends culture and is far more appealing than say Star Trek which has a very different social stigmatisation compared with SW (many more casual viewers).
     
  16. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

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    Jun 29, 2000
    I've had one beer and I agree to the subtle insight of this comment.
     
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  17. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 9, 2009
    Darth Pig, I don't know how old you are, but Indiana Jones is much closer to SW in terms of cultural impact than it is to any of the Transformers movies. It's not even close. How many times has the opening of Raiders been referenced or parodied? How many knock-offs were made? In 1983, I owned this album--Raiders was being referenced two years after its release in totally unrelated media. Duran Duran's 1982 video for "Hungry Like the Wolf" mimicked it; King Soloman's Mines parodied/ripped-off Raiders in 1985, while Tales of the Gold Monkey and Bring 'Em Back Alive both traded off its success in 1982 on TV. And then there's Romancing the Stone (1984) and The Jewel of the Nile (1985).

    In short, Indiana Jones was a huge cultural phenomenon. Comparing SW to IJ is apt. Transformers doesn't even bear mentioning.
     
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  18. Stoneymonster

    Stoneymonster Force Ghost star 4

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    May 8, 2002
    Yeah, I'm still not getting the logic DarthPig is employing. If this is the correct interpretation, I agree. IJ was a big deal, second only to Star Wars among my peer group. They are still riffing on it: Lara Croft, Uncharted, the Mummy series.

    Tranformers legacy is largely as a joke, or a cautionary tale.
     
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  19. Darth Pig

    Darth Pig Jedi Knight star 2

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    Feb 21, 2016
    I am old enough to know the impact of Indiana, much like I am old enough to understand the cultural impact of Transformers which you seem to trivialise to the recent movies.

    What you fail to acknowledge is that IJ had last crusade which meant we had a sporadic, but not huge gulf in instalments. Then there are the chronicles etc. that filled in backstory on the main character.

    As an aside: The cultural impact of IJ also largely relates to SW itself with Harrison and GL's involvement.

    My point is that the IJ comparison is weak. There was not a huge lull between movies, and the expanded universe of IJ pales in comparison. Only ST has a following which is remotely comparable, but it does not have the iconic characters missing from the screen for numerous years with only 3 movies representing their entire on-screen inv0olvemnt (big or small).
     
  20. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 12, 2016

    Indiana Jones had an expanded universe?

    Also, most viewers don't care about the tie-ins or TV shows, they only care about the movies. So, most people are just going to look at those, meaning you've got to compare the Indiana Jones movies with the Star Wars movies, and both are really iconic, more so than any of the Star Trek ones. (Star Trek's main domain is the TV, where it works the best. I'd even argue it outpaces Doctor Who in terms of consistent world-building, the fact that it has a far more flexible format, allowing for more variety of stories and settings, and the fact that it was, in many ways, creating the "cinematic universe" before people even wanted such things. But it's a your mileage may vary situation.)
     
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  21. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 9, 2009
    Transformers has a fanbase, absolutely. But it hardly made a dint in the wider pop culture landscape.

    Anyway, the point being, you just cannot sustain a franchise based on familiar tropes alone. There are countless examples. What I'm seeing is an appeal to SW exceptionalism to dismiss examples that don't fit the theory that the success of TFA was due solely to "nostalgia".
     
  22. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    The point was, that if you don't execute those characters well and people don't like the general story, nostalgia doesn't mean jack - as it didn't for you and others. In other words, unless you think the critics and millions who think TFA is a good to great film are that dumb they swallowed the nostalgia pill and were blinded to the horrors beneath the nostalgia, the other possibility is that maybe those people just like a film you don't. And no, Transformers is nowhere near TFA in general terms of comparison. You may feel like that, clearly the vast majority do not.
     
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  23. Darth Pig

    Darth Pig Jedi Knight star 2

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    Feb 21, 2016
    I am merely pointing out you want your cake and to eat it as well. Where comparisons align favourably you are happy to forego any inconsistencies, but where they are negative, you are quick to dismiss them.By all means feel free to disagree.....

    I also never stated TFA should be compared to Transformers.

    I also find subjective comments meaningless diminishing the impact that any franchise has on society. Whilst I personally find the Transformers movies far too Hollywoodised (USA USA USA), there is a reason a Transformers movie was made in the first place and there was considerable hype surrounding it i.e. it had a substantial fanbase (and no not comparing to SW as I have already provided my thoughts on where SW fits)

    And regarding the success of TFA - I have never ever dismissed that it is a fun popcorn movie which makes it highly attractive. The people who saw it multiple times are likley die hard fans who loved it.

    However, I find it incredibly difficult to believe that a large number of casual SW fans who saw this movie did not see it because of the OT characters returning. Luke was shoehorned into the ending to ensure all relevant names were associated.

    Or are we now going to rewrite history and ignore all the positive press regarding the OT characters returning to film which no doubt increased the fan fervour and anticipation (boosting pre-opening sales through the roof)?

    Why were the pre-opening sales so large then?
     
  24. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    What's your point? No one is saying nostalgia isn't a factor. It has been in every SW film. George played on it enormously. The point is nostalgia in itself is meaningless. There is nothing inherently wrong with nostalgia and the brand being a part of the film's success. Having one's cake and eating it is one of the joys of SW when it is done well. Why can you not accept that maybe, many others legitimately think TFA is a good film?
     
  25. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    "Why were the pre-opening sales so large then?"

    Three excellent trailers which intrigued without giving away the plot probably helped.
     
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