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PT [TFA Spoilers] Criticism of Anakin vs. Kylo Ren

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by PiettsHat, Dec 21, 2015.

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  1. darth_frared

    darth_frared Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 24, 2005
    no i don't get it sorry.

    frustration is not a character quality, true but not being able to cope with it is a quality, if you want to call it that. the characterisation is someone who can't cope. why that is, i don't know, but that's what it is.
     
  2. Darth Petulant

    Darth Petulant Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 4, 2016
    Good people are not always good parents. Trust me.

    This is not "picking on" anyone. We have no idea what kind of parents they were, aside from the fact that were overwhelmed, did their best, and made mistakes (see Leia's regret over "sending Ben away.").

    You are assuming that all good people make great parents by default. This is distinctly not so.
     
  3. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    If the story is written to insinuate that Kylo turned because Han and Leia were bad parents--IOW, Kylo does not bear responsibility, Han and Leia do--I ABSOLUTELY will consider such a story "picking on Han and Leia." I considered the insinuations that Anakin turned/Ahsoka left because the Jedi were "cold" to be picking on the Jedi.

    I see no reason why Han and Leia would be bad parents, precisely because they are good people who did their best.
     
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  4. Darth Petulant

    Darth Petulant Jedi Youngling

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    May 4, 2016
    One still bears the responsibility for one's actions, regardless of how they were raised. Kylo is responsible. Sometimes good people are bad parents, and sometimes good parents have bad children. Kylo is MEANT to be childish. He's a case of prolonged adolescence. It's one of the qualities that makes him a bad seed and motivates his actions. He may very well justify his misdeeds by blaming his parents, but we the viewers aren't meant to. We'd be just as sick as him if so.

    Neither Anakin's nor Kylo's misdeeds are justified. Just rationalized by each of these chaps.

    PS: I maintain that none of this is "picking" on Han and Leia. Good people (and characters, heroic AND villainous) still have flaws.
     
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  5. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    No, I actually agree with you there. HE probably blames his parents but we are not meant to buy into it, and his blaming his parents in no way means that his parents deserved the blame.
     
  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Right. Just like we cannot blame Shmi for letting Anakin leave for the Temple, rather than keeping him with her. Han and Leia did their best, but Snoke did what Palpatine did. Twisted the mind of a confused young man until the end result is what we got.
     
  7. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    But there was psychological precedent for Anakin. But his mind wasn't twisted really. Anakin did what he did because of his own selfish reasons. The movie has Obi-Wan say that he's allowed this to happen. Anakin has a background that shows why he would do what he does. Have a very great day!

    God bless you! God bless everyone!
     
  8. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Sounds like you're applying real world standards though. What you'd think of a normal human 29 year old who acted this way. Have you accounted for the effect of a weird Dark Side Force power consuming someone with hate & rage? We probably should. Just like Vader murdering an experienced officer like Needa simply for making a mistake. That's far more ridiculous than murdering a computer console.
    I don't think normal standards apply for these Dark Siders. Especially the somewhat conflicted ones who were once good. It's notable that even in SW it's mainly these guys who act in irrationally aggressive & hateful ways.
     
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  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I don't believe that superpowers should make a person regress in age.
     
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  10. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

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    Mar 10, 2005
    On the one hand, you're right in that the Force has a strong influence not only on the weak minded, but also on those who use it.
    On the other hand, there are people IRL who behave exactly like these guys when they don't get what they want. Unstable people who suffer from massive inner conflicts.
    It's not an issue of whether or not they've grown up, though. People of all ages can have emotional or mental problems and sometimes, these problems occur after we've grown up.

    It's interesting, though, that killing your employees when they let you down is mostly seen as scary and oppressive, while breaking stuff for the same reason is seen as childish.
     
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  11. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Fair enough. On the other hand I don't think that's what happened. Everyone, even adults lose their temper. For example most people of all ages occasionally hit their desks with their fists in frustration. Now add all of the intense emotions of the Dark Side. Seems to me it's a case of having normal adult impulses of anger & rage, but amplified many times over. Really the only difference between an adult & a child is that the child doesn't control those tendencies. They act them out. It's not that adults stop having those urges, they just learn to resist them (mostly). So to me it makes perfect sense that an abnormal & intense emotional imbalance like the Dark Side (especially in a conflicted state) would overcome that usual adult level of control. Which when taken away or compromised could make any of us behave like angry children. Which incidentally is the effect that certain drugs have. They compromise natural human inhibitions & unleash rage & violence. A Dark Sider in a conflicted unstable state sometimes acts in similar way. Look at Anakin choking Padme & many other examples. We saw Anakin in his 40's killing senior officers on a whim, or choking others who disagreed with him. I absolutely think that 10-15 years earlier he would've been far more erratic & less calculated in his outbursts.
    As for Kylo, I'd say if he embraces evil more fully, & is less conflicted in the following movies we'll see a calmer & more focused villain. Personally I think they're depicting his behavior in a realistic way. Can understand it being annoying though.
     
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  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    When Vader kills Imperials, or just chokes them, he does so as a show of power and a demonstration of what happens when one fails. When Kylo uses his Lightsaber to smash a console, he is just throwing a temper tantrum. It would have made more sense if he killed with his saber and thus show that he is every bit as ruthless as his grandfather. Instead, it makes him a brat. As to Anakin choking Padme, he was still doing so as a show of force and a demonstration of his power.
     
  13. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 9, 2002
    I just assumed Kylo was supposed to be a whiny goofy teenager despite that the actor was clearly much older. Kind of like in Wet Hot American Summer.
     
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  14. Son of a Bith

    Son of a Bith Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 28, 2013
    I think you're right that Vader does the choke thing to display dominance etc.

    He also does it because he's an angry emotional jerk inside.

    Edit: this is not a dig on Vader ok? lol it's just my take on the character. I adore both Darth Vader and Darth Tempertantrum.
     
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  15. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    & we see Vader in his 40's after he's had 20 years to hone the Dark Side. Who knows what he was like within his first 10 years as Vader. I can definitely see him flying off the handle more often until he became more disciplined. Seems to me what the Dark Side does is make a person a volatile time bomb. Users deliberately tap into their anger & aggression. The trick is to control those feelings except when they can serve you in battle. With Kylo it's not about being a brat. He simply lacks the control of Dark Siders like older Vader, Dooku, Palpatine etc. There are reasons for that & his emotional instability was a key part of the story. Doesn't mean that won't change in the future.

    Again, it's normal to have anger/tantrum impulses as an adult. People usually don't act on them. If the Dark Side was a real thing & if those impulses were more intense by a factor of say 10 or 20 or 50 could you guarantee you wouldn't lose your **** as we see Kylo do in TFA? I couldn't. No point judging behavior by normal standards when you introduce an abnormal element into the equation.
     
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  16. Son of a Bith

    Son of a Bith Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 28, 2013
    This is an excellent observation.

    We definitely see this with Palpatine.
     
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  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Kylo is old enough to practice control, especially since he has had training in Luke's Jedi Academy, and "there were reasons he acted that way" does not work for me. The so-called "emotional instability" makes him extremely annoying as opposed to entertaining to watch the way many on-screen villains are.
     
  18. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Well Luke wouldn't have taught him to embrace the Dark Side & then control it. Also the point is in TFA he was in a conflicted state. Being "torn apart" as he put it. That's made clear throughout the movie. It was probably the cause of his erratic behavior.
     
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  19. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I assume Luke would have taught him emotional control, as Yoda taught him, and which helped him win in the throne room.

    Anakin was taught emotional control and decided that he should not have to use it because his emotions were important and special and deserved preferential treatment. I could see Kylo doing the same thing, only to a factor of three.
     
  20. Son of a Bith

    Son of a Bith Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 28, 2013
    Kylo would LOVE to hear that did something to a greater degree than old grandpa helmet. ;)
     
  21. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Yeah, say what you want about Anakin...he's not talking to melted helmets sitting on top of ashes of his victims.
     
  22. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005

    How do you know they're ashes of his victims?

    Perhaps Kylo likes to smoke a lot. All kinds.

    Would explain some of his behaviour, actually -- and the fact he looks thirty, not nineteen.
     
  23. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I LOL'ed.

    But there is a canon source indicating that they are ashes of his victims.
     
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  24. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005

    I don't think I want to explore this canon.
     
  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
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