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PT [TFA Spoilers] Criticism of Anakin vs. Kylo Ren

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by PiettsHat, Dec 21, 2015.

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  1. Darth Basin

    Darth Basin Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 15, 2015
    As Rey says.................I never seen so much green...............
     
  2. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    I thought it was clear that the Dark Side is far more volatile & more difficult to control (although easier to access). Anger, hate & aggression are what users focus on. That's the opposite of being emotionally in control. We even see the DS make Anakin's eyes turn some freaky demonic color. Somehow I don't think Yoda's hippie ramblings about being calm & at peace are completely applicable to Dark Side users.
     
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  3. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

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    Sep 2, 2015
    Actually, we do have canon information of Vader 5 years after ROTS in the Tarkin novel and in Lords of the Sith. He was pretty much the same as he is presented in ANH.

    I don’t think the dark side is an explanation for Kylo’s behavior. We don’t have other examples of dark side users acting like that. Focus and self-control seems to be as important for using the dark side as it is for using the light side; it’s one’s background, personality and/or frustration that leads people to adopting certain behaviors.

    The difference between Kylo and Vader, to me, is mostly empirical. Anakin became a fundamentally different man after Mustafar. The trauma of that experience – being chopped off, burned alive, the surgery, culminating with being informed that Padme (his whole motivation to turn) was dead because of him – is what led to his drastic change. It was his recklessness and his uncontrolled anger that led him to make horrible mistakes, lose Padme and be forever imprisoned to a life-support suit with severe disfigurement and health issues. As Anakin he felt like he was invincible, as Vader, he become painfully self-aware of his limitations. As a result, Vader become much more disciplined, rational and patient (well at least until Luke came along).

    Unlike Kylo whose new identity is a deliberate choice of self-expression (to the point where when he takes off the mask it’s like he goes back to being an insecure Ben), Vader is a psychological result of Mustafar. He detaches himself from Anakin not because he is trying to emulate someone else, but because it’s his way of coping with his past failures and the pain of what he lost that he doesn’t want to be remembered of.

    Kylo Ren, on the other hand, has never been through hardships. He didn’t lose everything he fought for when he joined the darkside; quite the contrary, he was rewarded of what he wanted (to be like Vader). He is used to get what he wants without consequences. Hence he easily loses his mind when things don’t go his way. The dark side might magnify his anger, but is not the reason for his short temper; that is more a result of this character’s hedonist background. He never had to go through life-changing experiences that forced him to learn with his own mistakes – not until when he gets scarred and almost killed by Rey. And due to that, I am expecting to see a more disciplined Kylo in VIII.
     
  4. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Sure but he thought he'd lost everything at that point. There was no real inner conflict. No pull towards the light until Luke came along. The only Dark Side user we saw in a state of conflict was Vader in RotJ. A very different situation. He was well into his 40's by then & far more experienced. 22ish years of managing the Dark Side compared to 6.

    Like I said, it's not just a matter of channeling the DS. It's the combination of that & being so conflicted. Of course the likes of Palpatine are completely in control. They've fully bought into the DS & don't have to wrestle with any conflict. Mental conflict leading to instability that releases outbursts of rage & anger seems completely believable & even likely. It's those emotions that DS users tap into. So losing control is going to allow those intense feelings to spill out.
    I can't agree. That suggests that Kylo would display the same outbursts if he hadn't turned to the DS. That if he'd stayed under Luke's tutelage & someone annoyed him at the temple he'd go nuts & smash up the room. That's far-fetched in the extreme. Seems obvious to me that his erratic nature was due to his unstable conflicted state caused by the internal tug-of-war between the dark & the light. He says as much when he tells Han he's being torn apart. The push & pull effect is driving him nuts. I thought that was pretty clear in the film.
    Good points, & when Luke came along he started to waver in his convictions.
    Agreed. Still there are some assumptions there about Kylo's backstory that we've yet to have clarified. The other point I'd make is that Snoke appears to've deliberately held back Kylo's training. Who knows why, perhaps to keep his power in check. He declared that it's time to complete that training post-TFA. Maybe bcs the threats against them have drastically increased. For all of those reasons IMO we can expect a far more formidable & measured Kylo in VIII.
     
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  5. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

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    Mar 10, 2005
    That would be Kylo's helmet sitting in the ashtray. As far as the movie goes, at least, Vader's is only seen on a very clean looking piece of furniture.

    :-B
     
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  6. AniLukeRey

    AniLukeRey Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Feb 6, 2016
    I'm not going to judge Kylo Ren right now b/c I have no idea what happened to make him the way he is. I don't think he is an inherently a bad person. If he was, I don't think Leia would be so determined to get him back, even if he is her son. And yes, this is because this is a fictional space soap opera. Of course if it was real life I would think "no matter what happened, he is a threat and needs to die immediately". I would say the same of Anakin as soon as he started killing folks.
     
  7. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

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    Mar 10, 2005
    "Of course"? You do realize that the story of Star Wars is about human nature? For real? That it teaches us things applicable to our everyday lives? That people whose minds have been twisted are actually redeemable?
    I mean, we don't have to believe in redemption, forgiveness and compassion, but if we don't believe in those things IRL, I see no real reason to believe in them in the Star Wars context either.
     
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  8. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 5, 2001
    A comment from my husband about KR: "Where did they find this horseface... I can't take him seriously as a villain" :rolleyes:
    TFA made me realize Hayden actually has some presence and charisma... even when he's whiny :) And he doesn't need to wear a mask for that.
     
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  9. trikadekaphile

    trikadekaphile Jedi Knight star 2

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    May 6, 2015
    I simply do not see anything compelling or charismatic about Kylo Ren. I think he's every bit as much of a spoiled, whiny, self-indulgent brat as people claimed Anakin was. I never thought Han and Leia's kid would leave me so indifferent. And the idea that his turn to evil is "deeper" or "better explained" than Anakin's is just plain laughable.

    Also, it makes no sense to me that Luke is suddenly a "cut and run" sort of character. Since when is he the type to flee? Especially from the likes of Kylo? Or were the filmmakers just so determined to make their cloning of ANH complete that they decided, what the heck, let's make him the Obi Wan hermit figure?
     
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  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Luke's seclusion on Ach To has to do with the problem that as soon as he came into the story, Rey becomes marginalized. By having the film be about the search for Luke, the story could focus on Rey and set her up.
     
  11. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 12, 2011
    What a weak excuse. Did Obi-wan and Yoda's presence in TPM "marginalized" Padme and Qui-gon'stories or Luke's in ANH?
     
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  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Qui-gon marginalized Obi-wan's story, since Obi-wan was supposed to be the one who finds Anakin. That's why there are people who dislike the change in story when TPM came out, since it takes away from Obi-wan's story and thus limits the friendship to two films instead of three. When Ardnt was writing TFA, he kept focusing more on Luke than on Rey. Kasdan and Abrams had the same problem which is why Luke was pushed to the end. In the case of Yoda, he made Obi-wan rather redundant in TESB and ROTJ, since it is Yoda who trains Luke. If not for Lucas wanting Guinness in the films, all of Yoda would have handled the exposition on his own. And if not for the desire to kill Obi-wan in the first place, Yoda would have never existed.

    With regards to Yoda in TPM, we had Qui-gon in the role of mentor to Obi-wan. So Lucas could get away with keeping him in the Temple. There's a reason people say that TPM is Qui-gon's story.
     
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  13. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 5, 2001
    Qui-Gon was a new character while Obi-Wan was the existing one hence fans expected to see more of Obi-Wan (he was the main Jedi in the first drafts, so even Lucas planned for him to find Anakin initially). The situation is reversed in the ST where Rey is the new character while Luke is one of the Big Three that folks have been dying to see again on the big screen since 1983. If they didn't want to give him too much screentime at the expense of Rey they could have handled it in a number of ways. Have him act behind the scenes before he's revealed. Have his storyline run in parallel with Rey's. Or similar to LoTR, when Gandalf had to be absent he was captured by Saruman. Etc. Anything is better than Luke being a coward and ignoring his mission to fight the dark side.
     
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  14. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 6, 2012

    Hear, Hear!
     
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  15. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 5, 2001
    What's ironic is that Obi-Wan, despite being a sidekick in TPM, actually gets more character development than Rey. We know he's a good guy since he's a Jedi and takes his duties seriously but he's also more by the book than Qui-Gon. Clearly he adores his mentor but he's also exasperated by his wayward actions. He's upset Qui-Gon is at odds with the Jedi Council and is not on the Council because of that. Is it because he thinks Qui-Gon has been undeservedly snubbed or he wants the prestige of being the apprentice of one of the Council Members? There's a subtle tension between the Master and Apprentice, especially when he takes the Council's side that would be full blown with Anakin as his own apprentice in AOTC. He's somewhat arrogant and dismissive of the lesser "life forms". We also find out the Jedi train kids practically since birth which means the Jedi Order is the only way of life Obi-Wan has ever known (which means it will be hard for him to sympathize with Anakin's bond with his mother). He's been training for many years now, ready for his trials, clearly talented - and yet it's impossible for him to beat the Sith Lord (apprentice) until Maul makes a mistake. No sudden skill upgrades or levels up here, the dark side is really more powerful, you know :rolleyes:

    All we know about Rey is that she's been abandoned on Jakku as a child, has some sort of a strong connection to the Force and possibly Skywalker family, fairly self-sufficient, ready to help the first strange droid or guys she sees (at least Luke gets to watch Leia's plea for help before he become interested in finding the droids and helping her out), and gets superskills without any good explanation. She's basically a generic good guy and borderline Mary Sue. And they sacrificed Luke for that?
     
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  16. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2015
    That's a bit of an odd argument, considering that Yoda and Obi-Wan went into hiding for 20 years, and appear to have done nothing to stop the Sith for all that time. There's only two Sith, and I suspect there were still plenty of other Jedi who survived the purge. I guess it's oke for them to ignore their mission to fight the dark side?
     
  17. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2015
    I should also add, that we know Luke went to look for the first Jedi temple. I'm assuming he went there for a reason, and not just to relax.
     
  18. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

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    Mar 10, 2005
    I like the suspense of Luke having vanished. He's my favorite out of the "Big Three" and I really wanted to see him in action in TFA, but at the same time, the way he's handled gives him a mythic quality in universe and I'm very thankful for that. I love how everyone seems to look up to him as this superhero who WILL set things right if/when he returns ("If Skywalker returns, the new Jedi will rise").
    I just hope that it pays off in EpVIII...
     
  19. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 6, 2012


    They aren't even close to being the same situation/scenarios for the two parties..

    Obi Wan and Yoda are in a lot more perilous situation when they go into hiding than Luke is.

    Obi Wan and Yoda, once the Jedi are betrayed, killed or spread to the winds of the galaxy, the Temple raided, do make an attempt to do what is expected of them. They make an attempt to destroy Sidious, and right the wrong of whatever they may have perceived was their failure with Anakin. They failed, thus decided to go into hiding. This decision wasn't because they felt sorry for themselves because of Anakin's turn, or their failing the Republic. They had to go into hiding because the Empire was born, an Empire that had millions of troops and a huge military apparatus, control of what was once the Republic and all it's resources, and control of the civilian population. Sidious not only had control of the political arena, the military, but also was able to convince the Republic, his new Empire, that the Jedi were traitors. Obi Wan and Yoda (and any other remaining Jedi) were Enemy #1, not just by the Sith, not just by the Empire, but, by a vast majority of the Empire populace that saw the Jedi as traitors, or the source of the Clone Wars and it's destruction and death.

    Basically Obi Wan and Yoda (and any other remaining Jedi) had no where else to go, had very little in the way of friends in the GFFA. Were being hunted by the Sith, and the Empire, and would have been turned into the Empire by a vast majority of the population as enemies to a "safe and secure society". They decided that the best thing to do in those 20 years was to trust in the Force, and wait for either Luke or Leia, or both, to find that path to victory. I guess you're right, maybe they should have come out of hiding at some point in that 20 years with what, maybe a hundred Jedi survivors, and gone head to head with the Empire. Maybe after they somehow magically killed millions of stormtroopers by themselves, they would have eventually worked their way up to Vader and the Emperor, like some big boss battle in a video game

    Or...Maybe they should have helped the Rebellion by training the next Jedi that would help the Rebellion defeat the Sith and truly end the Empire's reign across the galaxy... Oh wait they did do that... Yeah they sat around and did nothing.. You're right...

    As opposed to what we see in TFA with Luke, who wasn't even close to facing the same disadvantages that Obi Wan and Yoda did after the destruction of their Jedi Order. We see in TFA that the First Order didn't come to being until after Luke went into hiding! As per the opening crawl:

    So as we see, Luke vanishes, and it's in his absence, or in other words, after he vanishes the First Order arises. So in comparison to Obi Wan and Yoda, Luke did not have legions of Stormtroopers, Tie Fighters, and Star Destroyers to face when he disappeared like Obi Wan and Yoda were faced with.

    The political situation of TFA would have been a lot more favorable to Luke than what it was during the time of Obi Wan and Yoda where they were persona non grata to almost the entire Empire. With the formation of the New Republic, and Luke reforming the his Jedi Order, there would have been a whole lot more support for Luke in the political and civilian arena than what Obi Wan and Yoda were faced with. Now, I am not saying that the Jedi would have been 100% completely accepted (surely there were more than enough skeptics), but again, when comparing the two situations, Luke was obviously in a far better position than Obi Wan and Yoda were in!

    Furthermore, Luke even after the destruction of his Jedi Order would have had a lot more friends in the Republic, than what Yoda and Obi Wan had in the Empire. Once again, because there was no First Order when Luke's Jedi were destroyed, there was no war or threat of war. Leia would have been a member of the New Republic still, and Luke and his Jedi would not have been deemed traitors like Obi Wan and Yoda were by the Empire. Luke's Jedi would have had a lot more sympathy in the New Republic than what Yoda and Obi Wan would have had in the Empire. No huge military force was hunting Luke, like that of which was hunting Yoda and Obi Wan.

    So the political atmosphere surrounding Luke was more favorable for him than what it was for Obi Wan and Yoda...

    The sympathy in the population would have been more favorable for Luke than what it was for Obi Wan and Yoda...

    The military aspect would have been more in Luke's favor than what it was for Obi Wan and Yoda...

    There was no First Order for Luke to run and hide from at the time he pulled his vanishing act, Like with Obi Wan and Yoda having to hide from the Empire.

    Everything surrounding Luke's situation was more favorable than that of Obi Wan and Yoda...

    Yet, Luke runs and hides anyway... He vanishes without telling anyone, coming across as a big ole pity party for 1....

    Han Solo:




    He just walked away from everything.... That line of dialogue tells us that Luke still had things to walk away from, where as Obi Wan and Yoda had nothing...

    Huge difference between the two scenarios...Obi Wan and Yoda put themselves into exile to avoid the Empire and live to hopefully train the next Jedi that could do what they couldn't...

    Luke goes into hiding to avoid no one, in a situation where he had more than what Yoda and Obi Wan had, but still decides to walk away from "everything" because he felt sorry for himself...
     
  20. trikadekaphile

    trikadekaphile Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 6, 2015
    As I said elsewhere, Han and Leia regress back to the characters they were in ANH, but Luke fares even worse: he regresses further back than what he was in ANH. In ANH, he was apt to get panicky and overconfident/overly idealistic. But he was not the type to cut and run at all. In fact, he was the opposite: he would face danger head on without much thought to the consequences, or, as Leia puts it, "when you came in here, didn't you have a plan for getting out?"

    This characterizes him in ESB as well. In ROTJ, he has let his experience temper his enthusiasm and he makes more measured decisions....but he doesn't back down or run away. Leia even tells him he should run away (which makes me wince, not only because the acting is pretty bad, but because it seems uncharacteristic for Leia) and he refuses.

    Now in TFA we're supposed to buy that he just ran off to feel sorry for himself and brood over his failure. Sorry, not buying it. I admit, I like Rey, Mary Sue or not -- I credit that mostly to Daisy Ridley's extremely appealing performance -- but the idea that they had Luke become a cut-and-runner simply so they could spotlight Rey is just sloppy and leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
     
  21. Darth Basin

    Darth Basin Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 15, 2015
    I kinda thought Leia told Luke to run as not to endanger the Endor Bunker raid.
     
  22. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 6, 2012


    Yup...

    I posted these pics in another thread...

    Luke reverts back to ANH Luke....

    "All his life has he looked away, to the future, to the horizon."

    Except it seems he is no longer looking to the future, but, is stuck looking into the horizon full of self-pity about the past...

    He has learned nothing...

    [​IMG] [​IMG]



    No it's quite clear that when Luke tells her he must face Vader, that is when she suggests that he should run away. She is concerned about Luke's safety and not the safety the mission at that point...

     
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  23. Darth Basin

    Darth Basin Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 15, 2015
    Ah yes, well Luke immediately told Leia "No you don't. You've always been strong." As if Leia was saying one thing but meant something else. I mean cut her a bit of slack, she just got hit by a bombshell.
     
  24. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2015
    I disagree, since Obi-Wan and Yoda changed the beacon, there were undoubtely a fairly large number of Jedi left. We also know that there are still a reasonable number of sympathetic senators, who are ready to start a rebellion. It would make much more sense for them to mount a resistance, especially considering that we're dealing with a number super powered beings against two Sith. Following the clone wars the Empire is not yet in full control, and we've seen what two Jedi can do against a large number of clone troopers, so imagine the damage they could do in a gorilla war. So, it makes absolutely no sense for them to "go into exile" and wait for a single young boy to take on the Sith.

    From a story stand point it would make much more sense that the number of Jedi would be slowly depleted, with Vader and the Empire hunting them down. The remaining Jedi would then be sent out to search for hopefuls that can be trained by Yoda to reinforce the Jedi. Obi-Wan would also keep an eye on Luke, while performing secret missions for the rebellion. With the rebellion eventually forced into hiding, we arrive at the start of ANH.

    With regards to the Luke situation in TFA, he failed to start the new Jedi order. Knowing the first order would be hunting for him, which includes Snoke, Kylo, and the Knights of Ren, Luke decides to distance himself from the resistance. He is the last Jedi after all, and his death would mean the end of the Jedi order. However, he didn't just leave. He went to search for the first Jedi temple, probably hoping he could find some way to restore the Jedi order, using knowledge from the past. Who knows what he found out at Ach-To, about Rey for instance? So, I would reserve judgement until we've seen the next chapter in the saga, before claiming Luke was acting out of character or regressing to ANH Luke. The latter is a ridiculous statement, as ANH Luke was reckless, and couldn't wait to get off Tatooine to join the fight. TFA Luke obviously has learned to have patience, and is a decidedly different character.
     
  25. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 12, 2011
    The problem for me is that we're back to square one. No republic, no Jedi order, X-Wings/ TIE Fighters dogfights again, small resistance/rebellion, another Skywalker gone wrong off-screen. We already have 3 movies about those and now 30 years, we're wasting 3 movies about the same things and just because they wanted to "recreate the feel of feel of the OT" or whatever doesn't justify its existence to me.
     
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