PT [TFA Spoilers] Criticism of Anakin vs. Kylo Ren

Because that is what the prophecy says.

That's why they dismiss the idea that Anakin is the Chosen One, because this hasn't happened before and the Sith were extinct. Then it becomes apparent that they were wrong and as Lucas said, Yoda is the only one who realizes that it is possible that the Force is going out of balance and if the Sith are back, then they will be the cause of it.

Qui-gon senses no deception in her. And the Council doesn't believe that what they've been told is true.

Because he was told that he was to find the Chosen One and that he would be trained to retain his identity.

It's not the mere presence of the Sith, but the actions that occur in the PT that puts the Force out of balance. When the last war occurred, there were still many Jedi left alive and the Sith took control of the Republic by force. This time, Palpatine manipulates the Jedi into doing evil acts and manipulates the Senate into giving him the power to rule of their own free will.

And then the ST says that there can be no balance without the Jedi.

 

"The ST" didn't say that. One old man said that. It's just his personal theory. Just as notions of the so called Prophecy are merely theories from an in-universe pov. Even Yoda cast doubt on the whole thing. Maybe the Prophecy was a pile of rubbish. Perhaps what happened in RotJ was simply a father choosing to do the right thing to protect his own son. A perfectly natural human decision. Personally I dismiss the Prophecy as mystical mumbo jumbo. It was never established in the movies as anything more than that.

 

One man who studied the Force and all variations of the different points and learned about what it means and what the prophecy is.

Yoda questioned if Anakin was the Chosen One. Turns out that he was.

That's still true with the prophecy.

Except for when Yoda says that the shroud of the dark side has fallen and when Anakin does what he was foretold to have done and what the head of the Church of the Force says to Poe.

 

Any in-universe proof that he was? Prove that it wasn't Luke. Or that the prophecy is anything other than someone's guess about future events.

All just people's theories. A prophecy isn't a fact. It's an idea. A guess of what is to come.

 

Even after RotJ, Lucas did mention the ST so it seemed that he hadn't totally tossed it aside.
I think I have seen some article were Lucas said he had 12 pages outlines on all the PT and ST films.
Yes with RotJ he was tired of SW and wanted to tie up the loose ends and thus Leia became Luke's sister etc.
After RotS, Lucas didn't just say that there were no more stories, he even denied that he EVER had any plans for a ST and claimed it was all an "invention by the media".
But he did write short outlines for the ST before the Disney sale.

@darth-sinister

When in the films was Qui-Gon told this?
And if you refer to some EU source, then you only prove my point, that the prophecy was underdeveloped IN the films.

Where IN the films is it said that the last time the Sith took control by force?
How the Sith rose to power 1000 years ago is not explained, nor how they lost it.
And if you want to bring up some EU source, see above, if you need some books to explain the films, then this proves that this plot line is poorly developed.

Exactly and this gives us an alternative to what bring balance means.
Palpatine managed to almost wipe out the Jedi, unlike the other Siths in the past. Had he killed Luke, the Force would go out of balance.
Anakin both stops Palpatine from killing the last Jedi but he is also the father of that last Jedi so Anakin balances the Force by preventing the death of the last Jedi. And he also ensures that Luke would even be there by fathering him.
So the Jedi are the keepers of the balance, without them the balance is gone.
Palpatine almost did this, unlike the previous Siths and Snoke is looking to do the same.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Who destroys the Sith? It's not Luke as he's laying there like a bitch.



Vader tosses Sidious to his death and then dies himself.




That what was said was true. He was the only one who could destroy the Sith. Yoda's dead, Obi-wan's dead. Kanan, Ahsoka and Ezra are not around. Luke's getting pummeled by Sith lightning.

That's essentially what the prophecy is. A glimpse of the future that comes to pass. The how and whys of it all are not important, just that it happens. Case in point, Luke sees Han and Leia in pain and suffering. This comes to pass. Anakin sees Padme dying in childbirth and Obi-wan is with her. This comes to pass. But note the differences.



In the vision, Anakin sees Obi-wan is wearing his Jedi robe. But when it comes to pass...




He is not wearing it. The future is in motion, but glimpses can be seen. Anakin killing Dooku was seen.






But the circumstances for it are different. In Yoda's vision, Anakin stabs Dooku in the leg and that ends their fight, before he decapitates him. In ROTS, Anakin cuts Dooku's hands off to end the duel before killing him. Just as Rey fighting Ben was seen, but things are different. In the vision, Ben is wearing his helmet, but when they fight, he is without it as he took if off before killing Han. But Rey still sees the confrontation in the forest outside of the base. Each change is based on what people will do and won't do. But glimpses of the future are seen. That's what the prophecy is.

And ones proven to be true. One more, when Maul's mind is restored, he says that he can feel the Force is out of balance and that the Clone Wars have begun.

This was in "The Clone Wars: Voices".

It's not explicitly stated, but follow the chain of events in the PT. The Jedi do not consider the idea of the Sith having power handed to them. That's why they do not suspect Palpatine of shenanigans until ROTS. Why they see the war as the Sith fighting to take control. And how they were defeated is obvious given that the Jedi claimed that they wiped out the Sith and that the Sith want revenge for it, per their own words.

But that's not all of it. The Sith push the Force out of balance by causing the Clone Wars to happen and taking control the way that they did. What Snoke has done with killing Luke's students is only part of it. Not all of it. The origin of the First Order as detailed in "Bloodlines" reveals that

Spoiler

there was turmoil in the New Republic Senate. And though all the details have not been revealed, it is inferred that Snoke was able to gain the power to do what he did, because it was given to him.

Snoke is trying to upset the balance, but he has not succeeded. Darth Sidious did succeed.

 

Luke did destroy the Sith. From a certain point of view. He drove the Dark Side from his father which brought about the end of the Sith. Without Luke the Sith would've continued on.

Anyway, all of this prophecy stuff is hugely overrated IMO. In-universe there's some old prophecy. We don't know who made it. Certain Jedi in the prequels place importance in it, others cast doubt on it. In the end Vader simply chose to save his own son from being killed. He didn't set out to bring down the Sith. Yeah the events fit the prophecy. Big deal. Frankly it's a very obvious & quite lame prophecy. If you have Sith it stands to reason that they won't last forever. So in the end they'll die out. Quite likely it'll be due to the actions of some individual. Let's call him the "chosen one" to make it sound all profound. Fact is just bcs Vader killed the Emperor to save Luke that doesn't mean the prophecy was anything more than a guess regarding future events. One that was pretty obvious when you think about it. Personally I consider it all to mystical gibberish & place no importance on it within the Saga. Esp considering the Dark Side will always re-emerge, as we're seeing in the ST. That would've been the case even in GL's version of the ST.

 

When you consider that the only difference between "Sith" and any other darkside user is a title, it makes the Big Dumb Prophecy even more meaningless.

 

Not before TFA it wasn't.

 

Any ST, including GL's version would've included evil dark side users.

 

But that's not true the Sith live by a particular code. If you take the Nightsisters they are darkside users but not Sith and live by a different code. They also tap into the darkside in a different way from the Sith. It's like saying Catholics and Protestants are the same. On the surface you could make that assumption but any study of both of them will reveal that they are different religions entirely. (I'm only using this as an example btw and not trying to start a religion debate)

 

All of that is irrelevant to the prophecy and a darkside user's ultimate goal, which is to destroy the jedi.

 

The Sith wanted to destroy the Jedi because of an ancient grudge from having almost been wiped out by them a millennium ago. But who says all darkside users want to destroy the Jedi? There could be some shaman or witch somewhere practicing their traditional techniques with little regard for what's going on in the wider galaxy.

 

Vader was already going to destroy Sidious whether he was good or evil. He had made that decision on Mustafar, but waited until the time was right which was when he discovers his son is alive. He just makes the choice to destroy Palpatine without having to do it as a Sith Lord. Luke's example helps him to make that choice, but the actual act is still Anakin's as he has to decide to let his son die, or to save him.

Actually, he did. When he fought Dooku, he was intending to destroy him and his Master. And when Palpatine revealed himself, he says that Anakin wants to kill him so bad that he can taste it and Anakin admits that is true. So he was intending to destroy the Sith. And then as I pointed out, he was telling Padme that he was going to destroy Palpatine. True, in doing so he would still be a Sith, but he was very much intending to take out the Sith.

It isn't a guess when one can see the future. It is a prediction of what will happen, but the details, the path to getting there, are always in flux. The Sith survived for over two thousand years. They lasted a long time, when you stop to think about it. So it isn't so obvious that they won't last forever. That's why we have the prophecy which shows that there will come a point where the Sith will be destroyed.

The dark side is always there, but the threat that the Sith pose in the six films that Lucas was involved in was a unique situation. It was the right confluence of events that lead to everything that transpired in those films. The aftermath in the ST is about trying to make sure that Anakin's sacrifice wasn't in vain.

There is more to it than just being a title. The Dark Lords of the Sith are masters of the dark side of the Force, putting them ahead of the Nightsisters/Nightbrothers and possibly even Snoke. Just as there is a difference between the Jedi Knights and the Dagoyan Masters of Bardotta. It is the philosophies and methods that set them apart. For instance, the Jedi use the Force to go out and help people while the Dagoyan Masters just study the Force and learn all that they can from it, but choose to avoid intergalactic affairs. Likewise, Mother Talzin used the dark side with a hint of magic while Palpatine knew how to do that, but relied more on the basics of the dark side to enhance his speed and creating lightning. The Sith also use cunning and guile, while the Nightsisters were more outright in their use of the Force.

Right. Mother Talzin wasn't interested in going out to take over the Republic, whereas the Sith wanted to take control.

 

Actually in the years I have been here in this specific PT community, I can safely say that the majority of members don't trivialize others criticisms of the PT. The majority of members here are willing to read and understand the criticism and reply with thought out responses as to why they agree or don't agree with said criticisms. Most members here just don't brush off peoples criticisms. So your assertion that PT fans, at least the ones in this forum, trivialize others opinions about the problems of the PT is not true.

What gets people in this section of the forums, what gets under peoples skin is that we are now 17 years out from TPM, 14 years from AOTC, and 11 years out from ROTS, and yet, the people with said criticisms just can't help themselves with regurgitating their same criticisms over and over and over and over again. Taking said criticisms to threads that have nothing to do with their issues, over and over again.

The push back that those that are highly critical of the PT get from those in this specific community is because those people post the same criticism over and over and over and over. There are a couple members here that no matter how many times their criticisms have been responded too, over and over and over again, no matter how many times the issue comes up, they just can't help themselves in posting the same complaint over and over and over. The current issue about the prophecy is the perfect example! I just have to look at members names, and know where they stand because I have read their complaints numerous times before, over and over and over. Basically it's like they sit on these forums to complain, because it's impossible to find any post where they are actually doing anything else but complaining. I give people like darth-sinister huge amounts of credit, because he is a stalwart when it comes to trying to answer the same peoples criticisms over and over again.

So as a community here, the members start to see the writing on the wall as to who is really here to have a discussion, or who is here to just continuously bitch and moan with no real openness to finding answers. The community starts to take note of those members that out of one small little corner of their mouth will say they like the PT, yet out of the rest of their mouth, all they do is post criticism after criticism after criticism etc etc etc. They see members that sit here in the PT section, with criticism after criticism for the PT, and virtually endless praise for TFA, yet, we can see in those peoples posting history, they never post in the TFA section. It sends red flags that those people are not interested in discussion, but, only in sitting in the PT forum to complain. It is why those people get push back from the community here when they post in the thread like the Pro-Prequel Article thread... Because the membership is aware of who is here for discussion, and who is here to simply piss and moan about the PT.



Basically, at the end of the day, most of us in the PT forum ask, how long? How long is it going to take for people that call themselves "PT fans" to get bored with complaining, and start to actually take part in having more balanced discussion about the PT. Rather than hovering on these forums, like vultures, waiting for a topic to come up just so they can complain and complain and complain.

I have said it before, we could be talking about an in-grown toe nail on Anakin's left foot and whether it had any impact on his losing to Dooku in AOTC, and the same people would come in and say it was bad writing, the Jedi were stoopid, they should have used a practical toe and not a cgi toe, the dialogue was stoopid... Hayden's acting was stoopid..etc etc etc.

 

Glad you've had a much better experience with PTers here than many, many OTers like me have, Mike. However, as usually you seem to be willfully be negating and ignoring that some PTers DO precisely what they accuse basically all OTers of doing *themselves* escalating the tensions and refusing reasonable discourse. And it is *my* experience few PTers actually listen to OTers differences without the express intent of bashing and invalidating differing stances. Nice if there was a more two-way street on the reasonable street rather than some just jeering and trying to shutdown any that dare disagree.

 

Actually no, I am not willfully negating anything! You have simply failed to read and comprehend what I wrote... I purposefully used wording like:

"majority of members"

"Most members"

Because I know that there are "some" that don't fall into the realm of the descriptions I was putting out.

So no, I am not, as usual, willfully negating anything. You simply needed to read what I wrote and understand by that wording that I intentionally made sure not to say every single PT fan fell into the category I was describing...

 

Its true that PT fans also have this issue(As do all fans) but you don't see many of them do you? I think it's just here, there are about 3 or 4 derailed threads on the same exact subjects over and over again. A couple I won't blame but some of them just needed to stop caused by other posters who know where the conversation leads. The thing that seems to be irritating Mike Is that some posters come here to share their opinion, when it's kinda pointless in a way. Have a thread with Jar Jar and you'll see a few OTers either rant, or criticize the same aspect of TPM. It's not wrong to share your opinion no, but when you see the same opinion for years that doesn't really have much change, you'd get annoyed. Especially if that said opinionated person just drops by and says what everyone else is saying.. On the subreddit I go to, r/tales, people tend to dislike Zestiria a lot. Providing the same opinions, rants, etc. After a while, you start to get a bit pissed when you don't see anything different anymore.

 

Actually, I have, yes. And yes it's annoying on BOTH sides but frustrating how PTers tend to be so one-sided about it. I dislike the 'battlefield' tone some here insist on making *regardless* of stances/tastes.

 

I also dislike the battlefield tone in both sides, still I understand what mikeximus is saying. For example, I strongly dislike TFA that's why I almost never go to its forums, because there I will be the complainer and I hate that, but honestly I have few things to like in this movie. I came here not to flatter the prequels, but just to discuss them in a positive manner because I like them (not that I like everything about them, but that's not the point. And also I speak in general , having nobody in mind. But let's not derail the thread.
I must say that the prophecy isn't lame only because the events look not exactly as the way they imagined it. It is a very frequent motive about the prophecies, for example same happens with the prophecy of the death of the Witch king of Angmar in LOTR: that he cannot be killed by the hand of mortal man. Yes, it is true, he is killed by a woman warrior with the help of a hobbit, so the prophecy was true, just not the truth that many (including the Witch king himself) imagined to be.

 

Interesting analysis Mike. I find it a bit misplaced though. The PT section is for SW fans to discuss the PT. Including problems & issues they have with it. As you say, to complain about certain things. It's not a gushers sanctuary. At least in discussing the flaws of the PT they're on topic within this forum. There are also threads in the OT section to discuss problems with the OT. Same deal in the TFA section. What I haven't seen much of are people complaining about the PT in the TFA or OT sections. Yet you spent months here complaining about TFA almost every day. And it was always the same complaints repeated over & over. If you were given a dollar for every time you used the terms "fan service" & "pandering" you'd be a millionaire.

I don't get your point. Of course the Sith can't last forever. Nothing can. Thousands of years or even millions of years isn't forever. You don't need a prophecy to tell you that. So since it's obvious the end will eventually come, & that the very last Sith will likely be killed by someone it's an easy prediction to say that person will fulfill the prophecy.

However the prophecy wasn't all about the Sith. It was about the Force. You're ignoring the key part of this so called prophecy which was that the Force would be brought into balance. Whatever that means. Not sure even Lucas knew. The movies sure don't make it clear. Hard to fulfill a prophecy when its meaning isn't known. Did Vader bring the Force into balance? If so what was at either side of that balance? Balance implies equal weight on both sides. How does that make sense? Was it only a temporary balance? Any ST including GL's would clearly include evil dark side users. So is the Force now out of balance in the ST? If so that means Anakin wasn't the chosen one doesn't it? Surely the foretold chosen one who was awaited for millennia wasn't destined to only bring the Force into balance...for a few years.

 

Don't you think months compared to 20 years is a bit unfair?

 

Has any particular person been complaining about the PT here for that long?? Anyway the simple answer is to respond to posts that interest you & ignore the ones that don't. Easy.

 

I've noticed that there's not a lot of tolerance for negativity in the TFA forums and some there quickly become irate with posters critical of the movie for still being there this far after release (6 months). That's next to nothing compared to 17 years. But I understand why they feel that way. No one wants to read negative, bashing comments all the time about something they enjoy. Too much negativity creates an unpleasant environment, and also tends to make thoughtful discussion harder because people get sidetracked attacking and defending random issues. Not that there's anything wrong with being critical, of course, but when that's literally all someone does, is post angry comments about 15 year old movies, it can make for a less welcoming atmosphere. But I guess that is what the ignore button is for.