PT [TFA Spoilers] Criticism of Anakin vs. Kylo Ren

I think the criticisms here about the PT are anything but angry. They're quite calm & constructive. Examples are given, broken down & other points of view are considered. I don't see any angry ranting or abuse towards the movies here.

 

I don't think the point is about the bashing.

I think the point is that making the same comments about the PT is just repetitive. Now, I'm all for free speech. They can share their well constructed criticisms like every other person who doesn't prefer the PT. it's just it comes down to repetitive opinions, same opinions and same argument. We could always ignore those, but then people will look at this forum as a bias "unable to accept critique" forum. So it's somewhat a lose lose. But that doesn't matter. I've argued a million times over the prequels. I know enough experience to handle pretty much any and all encounters of PT debates so I don't care too much anymore.


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The positive things are repetitive too. These are 11-17 year old movies. Everything has been said. How often are new & original discussions had?

Anyway, about the topic at hand. This comparison is hampered by having one character who's had 6 movies to be fleshed out & the other who's had only one. Very hard to draw any conclusions.

 

All I can say is, that I never stated that most fans act this way, only a certain group. I also stated that a group of TFA defenders magnify the problems with the PT, but apparently you missed that little detail. Anyway, bravo for turning what I would consider a fairly balanced view on the behaviour of groups of fans in general, whether they be TFA, OT, PT fans, or otherwise into a veiled personal attack.

 

I understand, but this is the second time in a couple of days, that I've had to endure abuse, because some fans feel the need to vent their intolerance of other people's opinions, or try to bully a minority, in hopes of chasing them out of the forum. I would appreciate it, if they be held accountable for such behavior.

 

Alright, in standing with heels1785 warning about getting away from attacking or trivializing other's personal opinions, I will try to get this thread back on track...

While you may feel differently, there are many fans that don't agree with your assertion that "Anakin in the PT very clearly doesn't" get the audience emotionally involved.
I have to disagree with your opinion here on Kylo Ren. To me, Kylo Ren was about as shallow as one can get, about as predictable as one can get, with very little in the way of expressing to us the background information as to why he does the things he has to do and why he has the feelings he has. Especially for his own Father.

The emotional impact of Kylo killing his Father is only emotional because it is Han Solo, not because Kylo is actually killing his Father. It really deadens the impact of why Kylo did what he did if we find out why he has Daddy issues in Ep8. Those issues should have been expressed in TFA in lead up to the confrontation, and not be left to be explained in E8, or worse yet, to be explained in books, or comics etc etc.

To quote myself from an earlier post in this thread

For me, I have no emotional connection with Kylo Ren, because there is nothing for me to connect with.
He turned to the Dark Side? Why? I can't relate with his wanting to turn to the dark side because we don't know why...
He wants to reject the light side? Why? I can't relate with because we don't know why..
He wants to be like Darth Vader? Why? I can't relate with because we don't know why..
I can't relate with Kylo Ren's issues with his Father, because there is nothing in the movie that tells me if his daddy issues are justified or just that of a 30 year old man-child that hasn't quite grown up yet.

So on and so forth.

As opposed to Anakin from just AOTC itself, again quoting myself:

To me, even though I am 40 years old, I can still remember the justified and un-justified emotions that Anakin has in AOTC.

I can connect with Anakin's daddy issues with his surrogate father, Obi Wan, even though I still think Anakin is also being unreasonable as well.

I was once at the age where I can remember thinking my Father was being overly strict on me, just like Anakin complains about Obi Wan being hard on him. However, now, as a Father myself, I can understand why it might appear to Anakin that Obi Wan was tough.

To me, we are shown the issues that surround Anakin in AOTC. I can connect with Anakin's emotions, feelings, anger, ambition, etc etc. I can connect with Anakin's issue with his father-like figure. Because we see that relationship and the interaction between the two.

To me, there is just nothing in TFA that causes me to connect to the 30 year old man-child of Kylo Ren...

 

Well a 29 year old manchild, but i get the point. We have 3 movies to see why Anakin turned. In TFA.........
Uhm.........well........i guess i got to read a few books for Ben's turn.......yipee.

 

I am *impressed* I actually agree with most of a post, Mike. While Anakin's emotional range isn't quite as obvious to me nor do I see Anakin as an everyman as you seem to paint him, I do agree he has much more depth than Kylo does thus far. Plus, Ren killing Han did absolutely NOTHING to me no context plus I don't like Han, anyway.

 

Well, just to clarify a little.

I don't and didn't expect a full report of every emotional stage of Kylo Ren over the last 30 years. I understand, just like you said, that we got three movies that encompass Anakin's turn.

That is why I only talked about AOTC. It was the first movie where Anakin's emotions, feelings, thought processes are part of what drives the movie. So I think it is a fair comparison of Kylo Ren in TFA compared to Anakin of AOTC.

I can understand not getting a detailed point by point explanation as to how Snoke was able to do what he did with Kylo. But, I think we definitely needed to understand and get more information that allows us to at least understand why Kylo is doing what he does.

 

I disagree, AFS. Emotional damage and neglect of parents/family is a very valid reason why someone may develop emotional issues and would like Kylo to have some depth as well. Sarcasm and 'fun' aren't the only elements that make good SW.

 

My question is this: how is this any different from the themes that GL explored in ROTJ? To be clear, both TFA and ROTJ worked for me, so I'm playing the devil's advocate here. However, did any of us ever believe Luke would kill Vader? How is this different from Kylo not killing his father? Kylo's actions mirror Luke's in ROTJ. If Kylo's temptation by the light side was underdeveloped, than so was Luke's temptation by the dark side. More so even, as we've seen Luke make the right choices for almost three films, and now we're supposed to believe, he will kill his father, because some evil guy in a hoody says so. Similarly, Vader's redemption is equally "underdeveloped". We've seen Vader be convincingly evil for two films. He not once expressed any remorse for his actions, and now we're supposed to believe he's all mushy underneath that black suit, because Luke says so?

 

In this case I think you're being a bit harsh, Dre. I would've considered Luke's fall possible because of all the trials and strain he's endured through the OT and the whole robotic hand signifies he's courting losing his 'humanity' or at least connection to it like his father did due to Darkness. Plus, he does hint slightly at being conflicted in ESB and RotJ. It wasn't really the words Luke said but what they signify, the son's faith the father is salvageable.

Likewise, Luke's choices like Anakin's are given context, Ren's haven't been yet so not really similar.

 

I don't remember Vader being much fun or sympathetic. I also never thought Obi-Wan was to blame for Anakin turning bad. If anything I would expect that both Anakin's and Kylo's stories tell us, sometimes things go sour, despite our best efforts.

 

Yup, like I said, I can even relate to some of the scenes where I don't agree with Anakin's actions (where's he's being stupid) because I remember those feelings between my father and me, between authority and me. Not saying Anakin was justified, but, that doesn't mean I can't relate to them as I can see some of me as a young man in how Anakin acted. As an adult, I can look back on my life and realize that how I acted, and the things I said and did where not right.


So, Anakin is a better character in AOTC alone in comparison to Kylo Ren in TFA. There is just so little I can look at Kylo's character and say, OK I can understand you and why your doing it, as twisted and wrong as it might be, because we aren never given any such information.

To me, it was important to get that information before one of the most iconic moments in all 7 movies, the death of Han Solo. The information that puts Kylo's character into any kind of context of why the things that happened in TFA had to happen, is severely lessened if they come after that iconic moment.

 

All I can say, I never believed Luke would turn, despite the few hints that ROTJ provided, in the same way that I never believed Kylo would turn, despite some of the hints in TFA. Luke was heroic up to the point where he meets the emperor, always making the right choices, and to me personally some symbolism with Luke's robotic hand didn't change that.

 

Interpretations vary.

 

I would reply, but in standing with heels1785 warning that we stick to an Anakin/Kylo Ren topic, I will not.

I in fact don't see Anakin's name mentioned once. All I see is a switching of the topic from the Characters Anakin/Kylo (of which my post was about) to that of perceived faults (or in your case "devils advocate") in the Luke vs. Vader confrontation and how GL did it.

 

Well, considering that Anakin and Vader are the same character, and it's related to Anakin's arc as a whole, I think such a discussion would be allowed, although I admit, it's not related to PT Anakin specifically, so I will drop it.

 

In AOTC, why isn't Anakin an everyman?

Certainly there are decisions that Anakin makes that are awful, and I would never make myself. However, that doesn't mean that the emotions that he exhibits in the lead up to those decisions aren't emotions that all, or at least most, of us have felt at one time or another. Or if you haven't ever felt those emotions, I think we could certainly have some empathy with Anakin to some degree as to why he has those emotions.

Like I said, I had a strained relationship with my Father, I felt he was too strict, had me doing chores, had expectations of me, expected me to work, expected me to have good grades etc etc. As a young man, I blamed him for that strain on our relationship, now as an adult, and a father myself, I see it was my fault. So I can relate with Anakin in AOTC, because I was once Anakin.

I can relate with Anakin's awkwardness with Padme. Even though I had a lot of self confidence in most areas of my life as a young man, hockey, school, friendships etc etc, I really stumbled with approaching the opposite sex.

I can understand Anakin's anger when his mother is murdered and his feelings of revenge. While I have never had someone taken from me in that way (murdered), I can certainly picture myself wanting to exact the same punishment on a person that did something to a member of my family. I just wouldn't go as far as Anakin did...

I do think Anakin is that everyman, because I can either directly relate with, or understand the emotions he is going thru, even if I disagree with his decisions based off those emotions...

Where as with Kylo, I might be able to relate with Kylo's issue with Han as a Father, if we were ever told what that issue was, before he killed his Father. We know Kylo is disappointed, but, why? Was it because Han was too demanding? We don't know... Was it because Han was negligent? Was it because Han refused to buy him a Taun Taun for his 16th birthday? We don't know.. We have no way of relating with Kylo's emotions about his father because we never get a scene from TFA, like we do in AOTC, that sets that emotional table between Father and Son (or in the case of AOTC Anakin and his Father Like figure Obi Wan)...

That is why I think Anakin, in AOTC alone, is a much better character than Kylo Ren, and I don't understand why the character of Anakin is so heavily criticized, even over a dozen years later, but, a less developed and less relate able Kylo is loved and actually given a pass for doing things that are far more eye rolling than Anakin did, ie Anakin's temper tantrum in the Lars garage compared to Kylo's temper tantrums....