PT [TFA Spoilers] Criticism of Anakin vs. Kylo Ren

Here you go :

"I'll try turning invisible, that's a neat trick!"

 

I think that Episode 2 has very interesting storylines that could have been handled better like the mystery involving Sifo Dyas and the clone armies. The EU proved it to be compelling so it was a tad bland in the film. Also, I wish more of Dooku's character from the ROTS novel ended up in the final cuts of Episodes 2 and 3. Christopher Lee would have truly brought him to life on screen if the script had allowed for it. There is a lot to love in Episode 3 though. I just wish it had some scenes left in the theatrical cut like the formation of the Rebellion.

theMaestro I live for posts like this.

 

Gold!

Thing is, it's already bonkers that Luke doesn't do a double-take when he sees the ghost of a young stranger with a Rock of Ages haircut. Imagine seeing a ghostly 9 year old. He might freak out!

 

It's like Luke has this expression that makes it look like he crapped his pants while looking at the same spot where the ghosts are when Leia is dragging him back to the celebration.

"Who the hell is that? And why does he have this creepy look on his face?"

 

Well, then, show him actually being forced to do that. As is, it’s a throwaway line of dialogue that could easily be removed from the film and the story would still be exactly the same.

Oh, it was his backyard and not his front yard. Well, that truly makes all the difference in the world.

You know, I’ve actually been to restaurants where the kids of single mom waitresses, often even younger than Anakin, hang around and occasionally will bring out food to customers, grab silverware, helping clean up, wash dishes and whatnot. And that’s in the United States, not China.

In other words, we don’t actually need to see anything bad. We see Anakin portrayed as this cheerful, happy-go-lucky slave, but we’re supposed to pretend that nothing is wrong with that because a few throwaway lines of dialogue tell us, “No, his situation really sucks! Trust me! Pretty please believe that I’m not trying to be some Lost Cause slavery apologist here!” I’m sorry, but you need more than a few throwaway lines of dialogue.

And it should be given more weight than a single throwaway line of dialogue. But I guess it was more important to show Jar Jar Binks stepping in poop. Oh, and we couldn’t possibly lose the crucial scene where the camel farts in Jar Jar’s face. I guess Adam Sandler-level jokes are more important than establishing the background of your most important character. It’s good to know where Lucas’s priorities are.

Forgive me if I’m getting the details of that convoluted bet mixed up, but doesn’t Liam Neeson specifically say that the bug gets to keep all the winnings, minus the cost of the parts he needs, as well as the racer. Why not keep the winnings and use those to free Anakin’s mom?

And I’m not even gonna go into the whole insanity of a supposedly wise Jedi Knight endangering the entire mission on a gambling venture, using a ship that’s not his as collateral and risking the exposure of the Queen if he loses. I mean, good God, I think this is the only time I’be ever lamented the lack of that cliché scene of Da Chief chewing out the Loose Cannon Hero Cop.

As for the idea of it being an important part of Anakin’s character development, then that’s all the more reason to actually show it instead of just relegating it to four or five lines of throwaway dialogue. It’s one of the most blatant examples of the whole garbage prequel storytelling style where we’re just told things that we’re never allowed to see, feel or experience for ourselves. All the negative consequences of slavery happen offscreen. We never get to see them, but we should just trust Lucas that this stuff does indeed happen. Thus, they have no impact. It’s a phenomenally lazy form of storytelling when all of your important story points consist of nothing but brief bits of throwaway expository dialogue, rather than, well, actually being depicted onscreen. We see this throughout the entire trilogy. Anakin and Portman love each other not because of anything we actually see but because Portman says “I really, really love you” during the arena scene. Anakin and Obi-Wan Kenobi are friends, not because of anything we actually see, but because we get a 60-second scene in an elevator where they basically say, “Oh, yes, we’re really good friends. Trust us, even though we’re gonna spend the next 2 hours doing nothing but expressing our utter contempt for each other.” Anakin is a good man, not because of anything we actually get to see, but because Obi-Wan and Portman say so. It’s just a really awful lazy way to tell a story, although I guess that’s what happens when you’re more interested in showing off what your effects company can do with the modern marvels of CGI than with actually telling a story.

Besides, I thiought it was Lucas himself who said that we were just supposed to totally ignore the dialogue and treat it all as mere background noise. That the story he actually wanted to tell was being told through images and music. So, using Lucas’s own standard of just treating the dialogue as background noise and only paying attention to imagery and music, please tell me how an anti-slavery message was conveyed.

EDIT: As far as Anakin’s mom is concerned, I really don’t get why he didn’t just call in a few favors. “Hey, remember back when I saved your planet by accidentally blowing up that ship? Yeah, I’m the guy who tried spinning because it was a good trick. Mind visiting this desert hellhole called Tatooine? You see, my mom’s enslaved there to this blue Targaryen bug. Mind going in there and buying her freedom. Yeah, they don’t accept Republic credits, so you’ll have to do a currency exchange before you get there. Great. Thanks a bunch.” That’s what I would’ve done. Surely somebody on that planet would be grateful enough to do that for him.

 

Are you sure they weren't using "sold his soul to the devil" metaphorically? I think it's more of an idiom than a critical interpretation.

Yes, I agree that Adam Driver could probably convincingly play with Barbie dolls on screen. I'll give him that; the man's a consummate professional.

Doesn't Leia say, "I love you" in The Empire Strikes Back? I think it's okay to throw fans of the prequels a bone about the bolded. People say "I love you" all the time in real life, and the same occurs all the time in movies. I think it's arbitrary to draw the line about what can be considered bad writing in AotC there. Even in context, I think it's a stretch to complain that Padme's sappy love confession is unusually ham-fisted or too "tell-not-show." And at any rate, definitely not anywhere near the worst in cinema history.

...uhhh. I saw this in a quote and I was mystified. I can't say I've ever read, and I have certainly never considered, that "Jabba and his goons" (most of whom are not even human) actually gang raped Princess Leia. I mean, that's... out there. Yes, we can point out Leia's metal bikini and Jabba's creepy asphyxiation thing (and the obvious fact that Leia had to have changed clothes at some point), but I would not, and have never gone that far. Maybe it's possible, but I find it too specious that the audience was ever intended to surmise that from that scene, which although a little risque, is from what's arguably a children's film even still. Lucas, Kasdan et al. can't be that screwed up. I'd ask how or why you think the implication could be that clear, but to tell you the truth, I'm not interested. I agree with Iron_lord, I think you're reading way too much into that scene.

 

That basically describes most of Kuro's actual posts thus far.

 

I think so too. But the argument I read was that this was the reason that the Force ghost appears young...because he sold his soul...and souls apparently don't age or something like that. And at that point, it ceases to be a metaphor and instead becomes an element of the plot. Personally, I think that that only reason Lucas changed it to the younger ghost was to give audiences a version of Anakin that they were most familiar with (assuming they had seen the prequels). But when looked at from Luke's perspective, the young ghost would seem more strange & foreign to him than the older ghost. But meh, that's one of the reasons why I don't watch that version of ROTJ lol

 

You know, even as a hardcore ROTS fan, I gotta say this change doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Anakin has been sliding since AOTC. He starts and ends Ep2 a different person.
I understand the pledge is where he sells his soul, and destroys the good person he was to become Vader, but he continues to slide to truly being the Vader from the OT for the rest of the film. If anything the force-ghost change cheapens the complexity of his fall.

I would disagree about the "soul" aspect being a creation of the PT though. The Jedi getting to be eternally conscious, where the Sith seek immortality in this life and their soul is gone on physical death is vaguely implied by the OT.

Plus I had a theory that the nature of how Anakin betrays and kills Mace and the Jedi in the Temple means he is damning them to no afterlife. Just a fan theory... seems particularly backed up by the ROTS novel stating on Mace's death "He fell forever."

 

If it really was meant to be taken literally, I can't say I'm surprised somebody would make a contrived argument like that. But it doesn't make sense. Not that I hate it, but, ehh... people bend over backwards to make Star Wars make sense when it doesn't really.

Edit: I want to clarify, I don't hate the idea that Anakin's soul would somehow be restored to the point it was last good, or whatever. I just have a problem with elaborate fan explanations that make up elements of Star Wars that were introduced nowhere else, all to justify a single problem with SW, in this case, Anakin's ghost.

I think I remember somebody said in an interview that the change was intended as a point of continuity more than anything else. Plus ca. '04 Lucasfilm et al. really wanted to push all the "Saga is Complete" stuff, and Hayden Christensen as Vader's redeemed Force ghost was probably better for marketing from that angle.

I want to go on the record as saying I prefer Sebastian Shaw as Anakin's FG for lots of reasons. But honestly, from the justifications you've seen, it would make more sense to have nine year old (or maybe a little older) Anakin in that scene for the same reasons.

I agree, although I guess Luke could figure it out too. I like that version of RotJ more for the victory celebration on Naboo edited in. As it turns out, I have no choice but to watch that version because I lost my VHS tape, and I've never wanted to slum it on youtube or anywhere else online.

 

The "truly deeply" part did make it a bit eye-rolling. Lucas must've been listening to Savage Garden when he wrote that.

Good point, & that's why Watto wasn't too bothered about losing Shmi. Which is why it's nuts that Qui-Gon couldn't secure her freedom. Watto was broke & he'd lost Anakin. What further use was Shmi? Qui-Gon told Anakin "Watto wouldn't allow it". Please, he said earlier that two slaves were worth more than one podracer but he was actually quite willing to bet just Shmi. Instead QG & Watto bet the pod for only Anakin. To be clear, Watto only gets the pod if Anakin loses. But then Anakin won the race. So QG had freed Anakin due to the bet & still owned the amazingly fast podracer to trade to Watto for Shmi. Watto seemed very keen to do that trade. He tried to use a loaded chance cube to make sure he risked Shmi for the pod. & that was before Watto knew how fast it was. So after the race why wouldn't Watto swap the old lady who can't fix anything or do anything profitable for the now famous winning champion podracer? Then sell it for big $$, or find a new pilot & enter it in future races? He could team up with Sebulba who needs a new pod.

Instead of that Anakin says they sold the pod. He runs in & tells his mother "look at all the money we've got" from the sale. So why not offer that money to Watto for Shmi? Watto had just said he'd lost everything. He's now poor & he's going to keep an old lady instead of pocketing a pile of cash?? They could also add all kinds of valuables from the royal Naboo ship! Instead we're expected to believe that a poor Watto is going to ignore all of that cash & profit so he can play house with Shmi. George didn't think that scenario through very clearly.

 

As someone who, in general, prefers the OOT versions, I also really like the victory celebration ending! The new Williams music creates a nice tone for the ending. Ideally, once we get a Blade Runner-esque boxset that includes every single SW release, I'll create my own custom version of ROTJ in which it's 99% theatrical cut, but with the 1997 victory celebration ending spliced in at the end (so that I can have my nice Williams music + Shaw ghost).

 

That's the thing, it was already restored to when he was last good. He was last good in those moments when he spoke with Luke. Hence the great dialogue "let me look on you with my own eyes". In that scene he's Anakin Skywalker again & not Vader. His ghost should reflect that good version of Anakin before his death. In addition they restored him as a ghost to look healthy & happy again. Which was such a great thing for Luke to see since he'd just seen the battered injured version of his father. It was perfect the way it was, & made far more sense.

 

Another reason it made sense for Sebastian Shaw to be acting as Force ghost Anakin because at the point in his life, he realized that he must right the wrongs he committed in his service to the Emperor. However, he also knew that he deserved to die and take the Emperor with him as atonement for his sins which is why he didn't just take Luke's lightsaber and kill the Emperor with it or something.

 

Heh. The flowery language in AotC has never been my thing. Not when I was a kid, and not now. I love the stodgy political dialog in TPM, I think it has a nice pace and cadence to it, but the wannabe love poetry in the middle part of AotC slows that movie to a crawl. It kills the mood. My point was, that line in particular is not the worst offender. It's pretty ordinary, more like boring Rom-Com stuff than the worst dialog in history, and Portman's delivery is overall more natural than Christensen's in the same scene. So her lines in general I can handle better.

Yep. I don't understand how anyone could prefer Yub Nub. It doesn't do the ending any justice. I even like how well Victory Celebration has been synched with the events in the movie, and how well edited it is with RotJ's end credits music.

Whoa, dude, I agree on every point. As I said, I prefer Sebastian Shaw's Anakin Force ghost.

 

Someone commented that the fact that Sand people are not real humans, i.e. mindless, vicious beasts, doesn‘t matter. Actually it does. They have no human faces, they can‘t talk, so they don‘t look like humans. This is the second difference between the Tusken massacre and the events in the Jedi Temple. Actually no one, except Anakin himself (who is more horrified by his own actions than the mere fact of exterminate them) doesn‘t care about the Sand people. It is obvious why. The first difference of course is that Anakin fell in mindless rage and in ROTS he did that consciously.
And the precious, so emotionally tormented “multi layered“ Kylo wiped out the Jakku village without blinking, and it was not ordered by Snoke. Yes, he has tantrums, how could I forget about that.
About selling the pod in TPM: I think most of you missunderstand the meaning of the slavery. You cannot just go and buy some slave. The master is the one who decide to sell him/her and at what price. And in this situation I doubt that Watto will sell Shmi at Qui Gon. He would blow up her instead.

 

Oh no... The OT meta arguments are leaking again...

Better call Saul....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Apparently that guy has no idea who Sharad Hett is. Otherwise, he would know that they do have ways and something resembling culture and societal structure.

 

Kylo ordering the deaths of the villagers was obviously an evil act. Just like Vader killing civilians. He probably justified it bcs they aided & harbored & "criminal" Resistance pilot. But Kylo Ren was Kylo Ren. He wasn't Ben Solo. Anakin murdered the Tusken women & children when he was supposed to be a good guy.

No, Watto was only ever shown to be a greedy businessman. He valued profit above all else. He showed no signs of such vindictiveness. QG had alot to offer him for Shmi & he had very little use for her now that Anakin was gone. Far more profit in owning the super-fast pod + all of the other tech & valuables they had on board their ship. Watto not releasing her for all that when he was broke doesn't make sense. Esp since he was so keen to risk her for the pod earlier. Shmi staying behind was a clumsy contrivance that Lucas wanted to happen. He probably hoped we wouldn't think through it too closely.

 

Yeah, except Ben didn't regret it immediately afterwards. Who knows? Perhaps that wasn't even his first foray into mass murder at this point.

 

"Who knows" is exactly right.

 

Watto refused to fullfill the "contract" about Anakin. Qui Gon had to mention "The Hutts", or Watto wouldn't leave Anakin to go with Qui Gon. You can call this greed, but still he as mastet tried to do whay he wants, no matter that there was a deal. After such conflict is illogical to Watto to sell anything to Qui Gon,even air.

 

Apparenly that person is talking about the movies. Nowhere in the whole 6 movies Saga is implied that they can talk or have some humanity. Talking about culture... Well, generally speaking they can use primitive weapons, and raise animals for food, so some antropologists vould argue about culture. But the inhuman nature of this creatures is shown several times in the movies.

 

Was Kylo Ren justified in slaughtering the village? Nope. And neither was Anakin. As far as I’m concerned, that’s the point where he turns to the dark side and becomes Darth Vader. Everything that happens afterwards is just a formality. Don’t take my word for it. Let’s take John Williams’ word (or music) for it. Williams explicitly has “The Emperor’s Theme” playing over it, which eventually crescendos into “The Imperial March”- i.e. the two pieces of STAR WARS music most readily associated with evil and the dark side.

As for the Sand People being a different culture, well, it’s a reference to John Ford’s THE SEARCHERS. It stars John Wayne as Ethan Edwards, a vicious, sadistic, racist psychopath who has a seething murderous hatred of American Indians, and who plots to murder his niece because “livin’ as an Injun ain’t livin’”. There’s also a truly charming delightful scene where Ethan shoots the eyes out of a dead Indian so that he’ll wander forever and never reach his version of heaven. Honestly, the only plausible reason for why Natalie Portman has such a casual and blasé reaction to his little psychotic rant about murdering women and children is if she’s this really horrible racist. And yes, the attitudes that the people on Tatooine have to the Sand People were the exact same attitudes that people had about Native Americans, and I really doubt that was accidental considering the clear influence of THE SEARCHERS.

And do I really have to point out why someone who has violent outbursts that result in mass murder is a danger to society? Second-degree murder is still murder.

Again, no reason Anakin can’t call in a few favors. Some of the people on the planet he just helped save can start a GoFundMe campaign (or whatever the STAR WARS equivalent of GoFundMe is). When they raise enough money, they get it exchanged for whatever currency is good on Tatooine. Then they send an envoy to buy her freedom from the bug. I mean, he had no problem selling her to Uncle Owen’s dad. Nor did he seem upset that Owen’s dad freed her. So why would this be so hard?

 

GL was inspired by the movie The Searchers. So the Tusken Raiders essentially are the Tatooine equivalent of the native Americans. As such their humanity is very much implied:

http://www.starwars.com/news/the-cinema-behind-star-wars-the-searchers

However, in Lucas fashion he took a dump on this concept, when he sacrificed this idea in order to justify Anakin's rampage, and dehumanized them, by having them kidnap and torture Shmi for no apparent reason.