TFN Your Say: How will Jedi Outcast fair in the console world?

You can't get get as good of accuracy out of a controller

Obviously someone's an Xbox virgin. Game controlers on a whole have been improving vastly to take advantage of gaming trends, while the keyboard mouse combo has been virtually unchanged since 1990. Of course you like what you're used to but 2 analog sticks can beat out one mouse and a numberpad anyday. We're talking FPS not strategy or point and click here. The mouse rules the latter two, I agree.

Case in point. I have a Goldeneye cart for N64 and I have a rom copy to play on a PC N64 emulator. On the emulator I was able to set up a configuration that will let me use a KB/mouse configuration similar to the way PC games play (KB to run, mouse to look & shoot). On the emulator my shooting accuracy on the most difficult mode jumped up from about 43% to about 92%!

The C buttons on the N64 controller was poorly designed, however I'm sold on the two analog control method. So much so that I'm going to buy one for the PC as well.

 

No I'm not a Xbox virgin (I like the system and it's controller), I'm just saying that a mouse setup has an edge over joypads. Even with 2 sticks. A controller isn't terrible it's just a mouse/KB config is more accurate and is an avantage over controllers. Especially if you use an optical mouse set at a high movment rate. Man are they fast!!!

A controller is a bit more ergonomic especially on the left hand (KB hand) but not only is a stick not quite as accurate as a mouse, but there's a lack of buttons and number of digits in the human hand in use on a controller to compete. You have to use 2 thumbs, one to move one to look. That leaves 4 fingers left on each hand. The way controllers are set up now, if you use 2 sticks in a game you can only use the shoulder buttons while simultaneously keeping your thumbs on the sticks. In order to use the face buttons your right hand has to leave the analog stick. So I would assume that the sholder buttons would have all the fire buttons and quick action buttons while the face has other actions like weapon switching, inventory switching etc.

Now think about this from a design perspective and look at how you use your hands on a controller. Each thumb on a stick and one to two fingers of each hand on the shoulder button depending on the controller. A ring and pinky finger is practically useless on a console controller. So at the most you have 6 modes of input (near) simultaneously. So you could directly use maybe Run, Look, Fire, Alternate Fire, Jump, Use Force power. What ever else is set to the face buttons or control cross requires you to let go of a stick temporarily sacrificing aiming or movement. That's not very good if you're trying to switch to lightsaber while your being shot at with an Imperial Repeater!

On a mouse/KB set up you have better control. Myself and lot of people I know use a 5 button optical scroll mouse to play FPSs. Using the mouse as look you use your entire hand for viewing leaving all 5 of your right hand fingers for buttons. Using my setup as an example, I have the options (while looking around simultaneously) of primary and secondary fire, selecting and using a force power with the scroll wheel/button and use force heal and force throw. So counting the mouse movement as an input, you have 6 modes of imput on just one hand.

A keyboard obviously has hundreds of inputs since every key does something but realistically you can't hit everything. Keys that are far away from your had are very hard to hit blindly while staring at the screen but you make up for that by re-mapping the more useful functions near the WASD keys. A good hand position with pinky and ring fingers on the WASD keys for running and thumb on the SpaceBar for Jumping/ForceJumping. Your index and middle finger are 2 more inputs free to float around and activate while playing. They could be anything from force push and activate/opendoors to changing weapons (by cycling or directly activating individual weapons) or using/cycling items. Also your other fingers can slip off/lean over and hit a quick bacta recarge or toggle a force run without really leaving thier positions. You can also pull your hand completely off and hit other keys that'll do other features like taking screenshots, recording demos, changing bot counts and AI difficulty.

There's also the very best part of a keyboard/mouse setup...hitting "T" and typing trash talk to other players!!!


It might sound like I'm bagging a console port of the game, I'm not. I do think that JO will be very respectable game and will probably sell very well. The companies involved are very smart to port the game since counsoles have a huge market share of the game industry and they can make alot of money. I'm just responding and explaining an issue I have with many FPS translations.

 

I've played numerous FPS on the Xbox and PS2 - Red Faction, Halo and Medal of Honor. Yet, I have never had any trouble trying to aim or anything else. Yeah, it will take some practice to be good at using 2 sticks at once, but it can be done.

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. I've found a well designed controller to be better in FPS. To me it's like someone saying they prefer the mouse or a numberpad to a flight stick for XWA but whatever makes ya happy.

 

LOL. I agree to diagree too. No matter how much I argue I'm not going to convince anyone who's dead set on using a controller. Hey, if that's how you like to play, cool. If you can get good at it, great.

I am curious how they are going to condense JO's control features onto a controller. There's ALOT of essential and helpful things in JO much more so than other FPS. Some games like Counter Strike have alot of commands, but not nearly as many as JO. I think a good way to appease some players (like me!) is to incorporate KB and mouse functionality as an option. I know that PS2 supports any USB keyboard and mouse. As long as the game is coded to use them they can be used. I don't know if someone even makes a keyboard and mouse for Xbox, but if there is, then it should be supported.

If they do that, maybe I could settle the controller debate once and for all in a Multiplayer match!!!

 

The powers would probably be scrollable. No keyboard for Xbox but there is a mouse and keypad combo for it. What I'm really hoping is that Xbox live is added in later, cause it seems that they're doing the same features for both the GC and Xbox and that just sucks. If I get a better computer I'll be playing it on the PC and then the question of controler/mouse can be answered.

 

Gcube rocks people. Its gonna be so cool when I get it for gcube. The first wait si for Clone Wars.

 

FPS on a console work. You just have to play the right game. Halo has pretty much put an end to all the talk of Mouse/Keyboard being the only way to play a FPS. Precision shooting can be accomplished on a good controller setup no problem. That is unless you lack teh mad sk1llz. The only advantage that the old mouse/keyboard has now is the hotkeys. With a standard controller using Force Powers on the Cube/Xbox controllers will be murder. Full Force multiplayer games are going to suck on the consoles because of the lack of hotkeys. Having to tap a button over and over untill you have found the power you want to use is teh suck. However there is a solution that will shut up all the clueless mouse/keyboard zealots out there.

[image=http://www.teamxbox.com/images/dailyposts/theclaw03.jpg]
Xbox: The claw. It's a controller designed specificaly for those who are to set in their ways and incapable of adaption.

[image=http://www.planetgamecube.com/media/hw009203951.jpg]
Gamecube: Ascii keyboard controller.

Don't shun the console ports on the basis of controls, because thats not where the problems lie. Shun the port because it's a lazy ass quick cash grab, that takes no advantage of the hardware that their porting it to. Shun it for it's lack of mods, custom skins/levels, online multiplay and it's horrible PS2 quality graphics.

-----signature-----
"Rabid Balding Ewok, you make me sick.
If there was an enemies list, you'd be on mine."


:::*::(^^) :(^^) :::::::
::::::/::::^^:::::\ ::*::
:::::/###-^^-##I :::::
: *:.l##/(*)# (*)\\:::::
:::/##(###.00#)#I ::::
::(___/#*#(XXX)/__) ::
::/000{{{{www}}}}\:: Ewoks Will Eat You!

 

Wouldn't your thumb fall off, if you kept using the claw that way?

 

Even in games that had the Capability to MP friends, I rarely did unless I had access to a very large screen tv, because on a normal TV, the halving of the screen ruined some of the atmosphere of the MP experience.


As for how it will do in the console world, I'd have to see how the interface works before I could really form an opinion. For me at least, bad controls kill a game.

But mostly I object to ports such as this because it says that they'd rather make a decent game in the effort to make money, then make a good game, and let the results speak for themselves.

 

>>>Wouldn't your thumb fall off, if you kept using the claw that way?<<<

I couldn't tell you. I have no thumbs, lost them in Nam.

-----signature-----
"Rabid Balding Ewok, you make me sick.
If there was an enemies list, you'd be on mine."


:::*::(^^) :(^^) :::::::
::::::/::::^^:::::\ ::*::
:::::/###-^^-##I :::::
: *:.l##/(*)# (*)\\:::::
:::/##(###.00#)#I ::::
::(___/#*#(XXX)/__) ::
::/000{{{{www}}}}\:: Ewoks Will Eat You!

 

You know, I've never really had a problem with console or PC FPS. Yeah, on console it seems like turning in a circle takes a few years (which results in me jacking up the sensitivity), but on the PC there always seems to be too many buttons to press and keep track of. I guess it's just a preference of thumbs or fingers, really......

-Reb

 

Xbox: The claw. It's a controller designed specificaly for those who are to set in their ways and incapable of adaption.

LOL Rabid! Good one! I'll have to get you back though!

As for how it will do in the console world, I'd have to see how the interface works before I could really form an opinion. For me at least, bad controls kill a game.

Excellent point. I really think that this is key. Regardless of what you use I've always said that control is everything in a game. I can get past graphical differences and what not. There are some games that made an upward conversion from Console to PC and they were also hurt because they didn't fit a keyboard and mouse. My main concern with JO if they decide to only make use of the standard controller is how will they pull it off? JO has a large amount of functions. Can they be condensed for a controller without losing anything in the already established gameplay?

Don't shun the console ports on the basis of controls, because thats not where the problems lie. Shun the port because it's a lazy ass quick cash grab, that takes no advantage of the hardware that their porting it to. Shun it for it's lack of mods, custom skins/levels, online multiplay and it's horrible PS2 quality graphics.

You bring up a good point. How will replay value compare to a PC version? With a PC version you can download a new skin/mod almost everyday. Sure LucasArts can release a booster pack or addon later, but that can't touch the sheer number of unofficial mods. I know mods kept Jedi Knight 1 alive for me for a few years longer than it might have without them.

 

It really all comes down to the online support for both consoles. Whether Xbox Live will figure in the game remains to be seen, but with the added hard drive and modem in the box already, you should expect that downloading mods and skins will eventually become part of the game (hopefully). Sadly, the same can't be said for Gamecube players, although Nintendo are releasing modem packs for the console (which will be used for Phantasy Star Online) without a official Nintendo based internet connection ala Xbox Live, it may be difficult to download and update the game.

Apart from the online features of both titles, you would expect the Xbox JO to rival the PC in terms of graphical detail (although maybe lacking in some areas) more then the Gamecube. Meanwhile, as you all have mentioned, the controls are a major factor in their success. Again, the Xbox seems to have an edge over the GC, but it will eventually come down to personal taste and skill. It will be interesting to see how the GC C stick will factor in gameplay (whether as a camera control or a second player control or maybe to control force powers).

As far as I am concerned, I till try both out, but most of my time will be spent on the PC.

 

Good points Kartanym. But you know what? Forget Xbox, GC or even PS2. Let's all just play JO on Nes. That's right 8 bit NES! Think i'm on crack!? Check this out:

www.retrosystem.com/nes.htm

Imagine bringing that over to a friend's house without telling him what's in it and firing up a game of JO on his TV. The "What The!?" look would be classic.

 

I own the saitek gm2 controler wich gives me many buttons wich you just cant get on any game console.
the other point is cheats. you cannot cheat on cg or xb with out pressing hundres of buttons where as on pc you just type it.

 

yup i must agree with you

 

I prefer playing FPS with a controller, I play better when all the controls are right there, now PC shooters might be better games, but I prefer playing on a console unless we're talking multiplayer....when no friends are around you gotta go online...

 

HA HA HA ! Consoles make me larf. Consoles are for KIDS - especially you Gamecube buying ugnaughts - apart from Rogue Leader, I wouldnt use a GC for a doorstop... and by the way - when is Lucasarts gonna bring Rogue Leader to PC ! Hey ! As for X-box/Ps2 well, if you need a DVD player you might as well fork out for one....

But boys, put away the pimple cream, throw away the magazines under your mattress, and increase your hours at burger king till you get together the cash to get a decent gaming PC, and hey not only can you play a friggin game on it but play DVDs too, do your history assignment and surf the net....don't look in your moms 'favourites' folder though, god knows what horrors lurk in there !

...But seriously folks, some games are cool on consoles, in fact probably made for consoles, i'm thinking of 'beat-em ups' here, and mario etc.. But PC is just too versatile a machine. upgradable etc... Even the sport games now kick ass on the PC(go FIFA 2002 !)

So, yeah, I'd like to have a go and totally lose it with the controls on JKII on a console and end up decapitating things anakin style...

consoles owners need consol-ing as their toybox machines are a poor consol-ation to a PC !

thanks, AT7, CEO of IBM

 

I'll be picking up Outcast on the GameCube for sure. I had much rather use their controller than the keyboard/mouse duo. I can't wait!

 

this game looks pretty ugly on the xbox and gamecube. hopefully they can fix it up becasue the ign articles say they will have excellent lighting and texture effects.

doesn't look like it by these screen shots.

 

Maybe the reason why it looks ugly is because they have to turn down the graphics a bit to compensate for the fact that both the X-Box and the Gamecube have weaker graphics capabilities than a high-end PC. All the screenshots they release for the PC version are always taken at the highest detail level on an extremely powerful machine. I'm thinking GeForce 4 on a PC compared to a GeForce 2 in an X-Box (which is more powerful than the Gamecube, right?). Well, whatever is in an X-Box, my point remains valid.

Thus brings another advantage of the PC: you can upgrade it. Consoles are top-of-the-line and may even have more power than PCs for a couple months, but then the parts they make the consoles with become commonplace in PCs, and then are surpassed. Sure, you might say it costs a lot of money to upgrade a PC while a new console will only cost about $300, new. But you can still play all your old PC games on the upgraded machine (at better resolutions), while you'll have to dig out the old, obsolete console if you want to play an older game.

Too bad the game won't be playable online for console gamers. Maybe LucasArts (or whomever) would be able to rig up a system that allows PC gamer to play against console gamer. Then we'd see who's able to play the game better.

 

well i have an ati radeon 32mb pci card on my comp and it looks a lot better than those screens for the xbox version, yet the xbox is way more powerful than my piece o crap computer. maybe it was just the port developers that dumbed them down.

 

Well, I was going to write a big post, but I think AT7 summed it up. The PC's vastly superior performance, versatility, and library of games makes it the machine of choice for many.

Sure, consoles are "dedicated" game machines (except the DVD feature), is that really so good? Wouldn't you prefer the wide range of options that a good PC can offer. Unless, of course, you don't want to pay, in which case you need to get a promotion. Or convince your parents to buy, whichever applies to you.

I know this is all preference and all, which is good, and if you really love consoles SO much....well, whatever floats your boat. I'll take my Alienware any day, though.

BTW, if you haven't seen Jedi Outcast on a high-end PC...please do. You'll thank me.

 

Personally I don't like to rule out anything. I feel sorry for those that have never played a newer game on a PC and I feel sorry for those that have missed out on some gems on the console. It's not the medium that makes the game, it's the game itself. If it rocks on a PC, then believe it will rock on the console, otherwise it wasn't as good as you thought to begin with.

An excerpt from gamespy.com. Wether he's dead on or on crack, we'll know once it comes out.

I managed to get in a good bit of hands-on time with the Xbox version of JKII at LucarArts' recent "Editor's Day," so it's with confidence that I say that the game is looking in top shape. It moved fast and smooth, and the level of detail was high. Some elements even felt like they were an improvement over the PC original.

During lightsaber combat sequences, for instance, you're able to switch more easily between different combat stances, and controlling the actual trajectory of your strokes with the right analog stick is very smooth. If you've ever played Obi-Wan, then you'll know that that game's combat mechanics came very close to saving it from its terminal wackness. Well, imagine those mechanics in a game that's actually good overall, and you have Jedi Knight II. "It might just be me, but I feel more like a real Jedi playing the console version than I ever did with any previous LucasArts game," says LucasArts producer Peter Hirschmann. If what I saw was any indication, I'd tend to agree with him.