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Saga That moment when...

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by KilroyMcFadden, Feb 26, 2013.

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  1. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 20, 2005
    Oh, WOW! This is going to be a little inchoate...

    Yes! Neat progression you outlined there! The Dex connection is, in the words of Obi-Wan, curious. I mean, Dexter:

    From -->

    1. Of or located on the right side.
    2. Heraldry Situated on or being the side of a shield on the wearer's right and the observer's left.
    3. Obsolete Auspicious; favorable.

    The opposite of dexter is sinister. From ANH's opening crawl:

    "Pursued by the Empire's sinister agents, Princess Leia races home aboard her starship, custodian of the stolen plans that can save her people and restore freedom to the galaxy...."

    Obviously, Dex is very favourable to Obi-Wan, enabling him to cop a break from the "old folk's home", and giving him the next critical bit of info he needs to track Jango to Kamino.

    And AOTC seems quite self-conscious about this left/right thing, particularly with regard to Anakin's personal journey to rescue Shmi, the Republic assaulting the Separatists on Geonosis, and pointy vessels manned by our main protagonists (who all end up on Geonosis, in a battle for their lives, catalyzing the conditions for this ensuing assault). Notably, AOTC is also the episode where a considerable amount of recursion occurs, in contrast to its OT mirror (e.g., Padme returns to Naboo, Anakin returns to Tatooine -- planetary recursion).

    II / V. Doubling/splitting versus hairpin unity. "V" for "(Millennium) Falcon" ("Valcon" -- and looks like what it represents: i.e., V ... wings). "II" for all the bunching of sticks. Attack/tack/tacky... attachment. Clones. Twigs/shoots/sticks. Attachment of the sticks. I'm not quite sure how this all plays out with respect to the droid progression paradigm, or the left-right dialect, other than it seems to suggest a certain dissonance: a brain splitting. Some nouveau experiment in cinematic consciousness, perhaps.

    Sebulba's a tricky one, but it's interesting that he is Anakin's main racing rival: an aquatic/amphibious challenger to Anakin's land-based messiah. And Jar Jar, another amphibious being (the other target of Sebulba's bully boy tactics), watches the race from a high vantage point. The physical simultaneously does battle with and is egged on by the digital. Humans dominate in politics, but digital aliens may be inherently superior everywhere else ("I'm the only human who can do it").

    Damn, that's good!

    I'll just add that Obi-Wan gets himself a distended Maul/MagnaGuard/Grievous/Tusken Raider antagonist in AOTC, in the form of the acklay -- distorted crown, spiky gnashing teeth, improbable weapon-defined width -- and he even duels it with a spear, which the acklay takes and crushes with its jaws (width-ways). Obi-Wan again triumphs in this encounter after another delayed climax, this time returning to put the acklay out of its misery with another newly-acquired lightsaber. As with his other opponents, it's not a clean death for the acklay: Obi-Wan first stumps it in the legs (recalling the cleaving of Maul across the waist and Zam's hand removal in the club; also anticipating another maiming years to come in the cantina; to say nothing of the mutilation of Anakin), then ritualistically brings his sword down, stabbing the poor creature in the head.

    Seems appropriate that the motif gets a little skewered in AOTC, only to right itself in ROTS. It's been said on here before that ROTS and TPM seem to have more in common, in a lot of ways, than TPM and AOTC (the deeper truth is obviously more mixed), and I can think of any number of examples (just to throw a random one out this instant: the presence of the Fates for the closing-credits music to both TPM and ROTS, while they are absent from AOTC's end-credits music). Ho boy, I just thought of something even more random while writing out that example. Watto: "Republic credits? Republic credits are no good out here. I need something more real." Heh.

    Anyway, another link, of sorts, between Maul and the MagnaGuards, besides the "M", is the presence of red duels. Sorry, jewels. Obi-Wan is clinging onto a fixture ensconcing a red jewel while hanging inside the pit against Maul; and the MagnaGuards have both red eyes and a similar red-jewel form in their lower thorax/navel region. But yes, Obi-Wan is a very practical guy, and always seems to pull victory from the jaws of defeat. Jaws. Hehehe. Smile, you son of a bantha!

    Nice. The saga is something like a galactic almanac. We focus on the bit that interests us, then try to correlate it with other bits.

    Oh, that sounds quite exotic! I should start watching this show!

    In an animatic supplied on the Blu-ray set, the Ben-Grievous chase sequence is much longer, and their death-match does, indeed, culminate with Obi-Wan ripping Grievous' heart from his chest. I do tend to think Spielberg went a bit overboard with his contributions (like with the suggestion that Anakin and Obi-Wan be hurling lava at each other on Mustafar), then Lucas stepped in and toned things down. I like those nifty connections, though.

    I've made a crude association between Grievous and a Hindu god before, but you've gone further. And: death and rebirth. Shoulda caught that. Nice work all round!!

    I also can't help thinking of Tarkin's line, now that you've made that fascinating link between Ben and Vader: "Their fire has gone out of the universe." Oooh, this saga!

    "These... visions you have..." [face_thinking]

    Neat-o! It's just like the Emperor in ROTJ to "Lord Vader"'s son. A Sith Lord being sent by Darth Sidious to "help out" the hapless Gunray and his associates is also -- surprise, surprise -- another connection between TPM and ROTS.

    Oh, and lastly...

    "I'm sorry to differ with you, sir, but you are the caretaker. You have always been the caretaker. I should know, sir, I have always been here."

    "When my new apprentice, Darth Vader, arrives, he will... take care of you."
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  2. StarWarsVerses

    StarWarsVerses Jedi Knight star 1

    Feb 14, 2013
    Very nice, I considered mentioning Obi-Wan's Harryhausen-esque spearthrowing but couldn't figure out how to fit it in - maybe some subconscious part of me was hoping you'd do it for me, which you've done admirably. The Acklay - or Attacklay - turns Obi-Wan's knack for bisection back on him quite consistently, and spends a majority of its screentime either destroying the 'sticks' that litter AOTC or being prodded and chopped apart by them. It's ironic and a little sad that the pit beasts who would have made Colisseum martyrs out of our heroes ended up as animal sacrifices themselves - Jango's all-too-easy execution of the Reek, tragically predicting his own demise, seems a clear reference to Picasso's depiction of Spanish bullfighting, and Obi-Wan's destruction of the Acklay recalls the documentary-footage machete sacrifice of the water buffalo/Kurtz iin Apocalypse Now. Watching this sequence as a young child I remember being affected by the brutality of the whole thing, mirrored by young Boba's inability to put Humpty-Dumpty back together again (the reverse of Artoo's reconstruction of Threepio).

    Our focus determines our reality. Or does Star Wars give us focus, make us stronger?

    I can't recommend it highly enough. In a way it's a purer incarnation of Star Wars, seperate from the films - with all their advantages and limitations - and yet beholden to them, experimenting with symmetry and asymmetry (again the split-brain nature of the series) in twenty-minute laboratory conditions. Seeing it deepen in dimension over the last five years has been one of the things that's kept Star Wars increasingly vibrant over the years. The start is a little shaky but if you stick with it (there's that word again) I imagine you'd get quite a bit out of it.

    That sequence also featured Ben being dragged behind Grievous's vehicle (more on that momentarily) as a reference to Indy's truck antics in Raiders. Fun to watch.

    And speaking of round, Grievous's wheelbike, or Juggernaut, or Jagganatha, depending on how deep you want to get into the Hindu iconography...


    Also one of several times Nute seems to break the fourth wall (much like another red-green character in the saga). Read as a message to the audience at the beginning (and repeated by Padme for emphasis in the middle) of TPM, "You assume too much," is pretty much as good as it gets.

    Father of Hero Twins.

    "But I corrected them sir. And when my wife tried to prevent me from doing my duty, I corrected her."
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  3. J_Girl

    J_Girl Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Feb 18, 2001

    That's what I said, I so agree with you 100% :D
  4. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 20, 2005
    Just a bonanza of reversals! Yes, imagery in the arena evokes Picasso. And Lucas was, of course, going to direct "Apocalypse Now" originally. Star Wars effectively arose -- or took the form it did -- because he deferred his ideas from that anti-war project into his Flash Gordon epic. If the Empire, in the words of Lucas' notes, is "America ten years from now" (written in the 1970s on the back of Watergate and Vietnam), then the Republic must, by definition, share traits with America as it was then and, perhaps, is today. And the situation depicted in AOTC is very much a plurality of fascist rigidity. "Uh, oh!" / "Roger, roger!"

    And yeah, I think that closing inversion is pretty funny: black comedy. Boba's papa lies dead, while Threepio complains when Artoo is putting him back together, including re-attaching -- attacking! -- his severed head. And then we get that Shakespearean line: "I've had the most peculiar dream." Very "Wizard Of Oz"-esque as well. Human frailty is emphasized. Bizarrely, droids are defeated by human (well, computer) clones, but other droids remain intact at the end of the carnage. "Artoo, what are you doing here?" is spoken twice in AOTC , with more incredulity in the second instance. The droids are something of an unlikely intrusion into the already-stretched fabric of the film, but it's inconceivable to imagine the picture without them, and the film tips it hat to both notions.


    I'm going to turn you over to the Jedi Council.

    Wait, we're here, already!

    Every hardcore prequel fan I know seems quite delirious over it. I gave it a brief whirl and watched an episode one time, which I enjoyed, but I ruled out committing to the whole thing. I may have to change my decision. :) Split-brain stuff is good.

    I still don't have the Blu-rays. I watched it one time via a YouTube link; I didn't save it to my computer, unfortunately. Seems that Spielberg had some fun making an extended reference to his and GL's own serial companion piece when finally given something to do for this last prequel venture. Maybe the aggressive incorporation of "Indy" homages in ROTS -- the "epic tragedy" installment -- (Lucas also instructed his artists to come up with Indy-esque scenarios for the opening sequence: "Indiana Jones And The Temple Of Doom aboard a ship") also suggests something about the manner in which one should read these filmmakers' pop art.

    There you go again!

    "Always on the move..."

    There's also this long narrative about "helping" in the prequel trilogy leading to enslavement and disaster. Clumsiness and miscommunication rule the day.

    "You were banished because you were clumsy?"

    Now, THAT's a catch!

    I gotta hand it to ya! Hand.


    Yes, all these links ... super cool!
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  5. StarWarsVerses

    StarWarsVerses Jedi Knight star 1

    Feb 14, 2013



    Two dream-labyrinth battles between brown-haired father and blonde-haired son released two days apart in the US, May 1980. "There is no escape."
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  6. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Force Ghost star 5

    Aug 9, 2002
    Moments after being reminded that dreams pass in time, Anakin reclaims his yellow vehicle and brazenly sets forth into the labyrinthine night in order to save those he loves before it's too late.
  7. Bobatron

    Bobatron Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 3, 2012
    *I'm forcing myself to play along even though I cringe whenever I see someone post the "that awkward moment when" sentence fragment trend.

    Probably my favorite moment in all the movies is when the opening crawl fades away and right before the camera pans. Every film has it and it is a nice little bit of anticipation and nostalgia as that could be me watching any STAR WARS movie at any time in my life.
  8. Seagoat

    Seagoat PT and Music Section Dictator star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Jan 25, 2013
    One for each movie:

    ...The door opens to reveal Darth Maul and he pulls out his saber... but it has TWO blades!

    ... You see the clones marching to the Imperial March and Palpatine observes from above.

    ... Order 66/Anakin's betrayal. Nuff said.

    ... You see the jump to lightspeed in the Falcon for the first time.

    ... Luke wimps out, then Yoda lifts the X-wing from Lucas's pool the swamp.

    ... Luke gives into his anger and almost strikes his father down, then (idiotically) throws his lightsaber away.
  9. Jedi_Ford_Prefect

    Jedi_Ford_Prefect Jedi Master star 4

    Jun 9, 2003
    So much "Shining" and "Star Wars" overlap. Maybe we'll see a followup to "Room 237" about the Prequels.
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  10. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    May 27, 1999 order of appearance (from my perspective):

    -The scene in ANH when Luke goes out to see the sunsset. It doesn't last long, but the combination of the thoughtful look on his face and the wonderful presentation of the Force theme (Ben's Theme, back then) is a great way of presenting Luke's longing to leave home and seek his fortune. TESB in the Carbon Freezing Chamber when Luke stands before Vader and switches on his 'saber. He has a look of absolute determination on his face, and we're all on edge as the battle we've waited three years for is about to start. Not that it turns out how we thought it would... ROTJ during the victory celebration when Luke goes off to one side and sees Ben, Yoda and Anakin benevolently watching him. It's good to see Luke, haunted through most of the movie, smile warmly at them, and give a friendly wink as he heads back to his friends. That's the happy ending we've been hoping for. TPM when Qui-Gon says "Anakin Skywalker, meet Obi-Wan Kenobi." It's nice to see them happy to meet, and Qui-Gon is plainly glad to introduce his two (symbolic) kids. Still, given what we know, it's kind of a sad moment, in a way. ATOC when Ani walks out of the Tusken hut with murder in his eye and strikes down one of the Sandpeople. That's not the overconfident yet basically good kid we know; that's our first hint of Vader. ROTS when Padme says, "Obi-Wan was right," and Ani growls "I don't want to hear anymore about Obi-Wan." He's not cutting down his mother's killers; he's threatening his pregnant wife. And the audience goes, "Uh, oh," because now we know there won't be a retcon. We're on the verge of tragedy on a grand scale, and it's gonna be brutal.
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  11. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 20, 2005
    I don't have screenshot capability, so...

    OBI-WAN (to Artoo): Take this and wait for orders.




    And in the middle installment -- another dream-labyrinth battle; an entire movie -- of the prequel trilogy, released twenty two years later, the brown-haired father (with beard) is in the process of metaphysically mucking up the blonde-haired son.

    "We will not go through this exercise (exorcise) again, Anakin."

    Ah, but you will, Obi-Wan -- infinitely.
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  12. Son of a Bith

    Son of a Bith Jedi Master star 4

    Feb 28, 2013
    That moment when Obi-Wan closes his eyes peacefully and lets himself die at Vader's hands, Luke screams "No!" and you remember shouting the same thing when you first saw this as a child.
  13. Jedi_Ford_Prefect

    Jedi_Ford_Prefect Jedi Master star 4

    Jun 9, 2003
    Here's another one.

    ...Anakin bolts into Padme's film-noir shadowed penthouse and swats away the two poison centipedes crawling over her sleeping body with his lightsaber, just as she darts up awake and Obi-Wan leaps crashing out of the venetian-blind window to catch the assassin-droid-- all of it perfectly setting up both the Anakin and the Jedi's consumate skills and dangerous arrogance, as well as a million and one layers of sexual and cinematic intrigue.
  14. janstett

    janstett Jedi Master star 3

    May 29, 2004
    He's putting the creature out of its misery, rather than letting it suffer in agony. He hesitates and steels himself for the unpleasant task that must be done.

    Yet the rest of Obi-Wan's history is letting his victims suffer in agony, most notably Anakin after the duel. He could have easily killed Anakin instead of chopping off 3 of his 4 limbs. Instead he maims him and watches his flesh burn, in agony. And Obi-Wan still doesn't put him out of his misery. He leaves him to suffer.

    Obi-Wan does this to all his victims save the Acklay, but he felt compassionate enough to put the poor beast out of its misery. Perhaps fitting since it's simply a mistreated animal and not consciously out to harm anybody.

    Now that I think about it, Obi-Wan is a sick puppy who mames his victims and leaves them to suffer agonizing pain.

    Of course that's meant to be a clever double entendre -- "take care of" as in the way a mobster takes care of a problem.
  15. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 20, 2005
    The very hand that saves Padme from death here is the very hand that chokes her cold in the next movie. Actually, no, no, it isn't: this is Anakin's fleshy hand. But it's a neat (half) rhyme all the same. Yes, there is so much to this brief pre-chase vignette. Like you say, "a million and one layers of sexual and cinematic intrigue".

    Why DOES Obi-Wan leap from the window, George Reeves-Superman style, at exactly that moment? The Impulsiveness Of The Jedi, The Silence Of The Kouhons. In your terrific AOTC essay, you cite Bunuel's suggestive use of snails on a murdered girl's legs in "Diary Of A Chambermaid" as one of those discreet "gestalt" moments, I suppose, that is uniquely the power of cinema's to convey; the centipede creatures bring a similar dynamic to Lucas' imagery and themes here.

    Even better is the way that there are precisely two of these creatures to mirror the two Jedi bickering through the wall -- and an ominous line from Obi-Wan: "There are many other ways to kill a senator." It's a richly insinuating gunpowder device for the flocked-up attack-defence dialectic that follows. The Clone Wars essentially begin over one woman: the "mother"/"sister" clone, Padme Amidala. And also this saga's "Helen Of Troy": the face that launched a thousand ships.

    Oh, yeah. This page contains a groovy six-shot collage of a venetian-blind-lit Obi-Wan glancing in the direction of an emerald-squared worker robot, stuck to a window like a bug, and the kinetic ballet, involving more blue and emerald, that follows:

    That's a nice interpretation -- I concur! These little moments suggest worlds unseen. Obi-Wan is possibly trained in some sort of standard Jedi-approved "mercy killing" method, which is rather a shocking thing, if you think about it for a second.

    Yes. The Grievous killing is instructive. Coming before Obi-Wan's duel with Anakin, it offers us a unique perspective on Jedi violence: a sort of callous indifference that easily crosses over to being a spectator of wretched suffering.

    A very good point. By extension, Anakin -- ani -- is a mistreated animal, too; but now there is something (fear, envy, hate, attachment) that prohibits Obi-Wan from being consistent.

    A clever example of the Jedi simply enacting their brand of justice without regard for the lives of others -- even their own safety -- is when they kill all the battle droids on the Invisible Hand (which then requires Anakin to use all his skill to avoid them all experiencing a fiery death). This "take no prisoners" attitude seems implied in the transformation of Anakin into Vader.

    Well, it all began -- this entire "tragedy" -- when Darth Sidious made those industrious Neimoidian folk an offer they couldn't refuse. ;)
  16. Lazy Storm Trooper

    Lazy Storm Trooper Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 18, 2012
    you saw a planet get blown up and it is like stuff just got real...
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  17. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 20, 2005
    That's true. For being the lightest installment -- from a certain POV -- ANH manages to somehow have the single-most effective act of genocide in the entire saga.
  18. StarWarsVerses

    StarWarsVerses Jedi Knight star 1

    Feb 14, 2013
    Two of 'em even.
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  19. darthbarracuda

    darthbarracuda Jedi Knight star 3

    Nov 4, 2012
    That moment when you hear the soft thud of military drums in the background, right after the opening crawl in Episode III. And then you see the huge epic battle below. My jaw dropped when I saw and heard that. One of the best parts of the PT...IMO
  20. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

    Jan 30, 2013
    When Vader first reveals himself to Luke on Cloud City, first you hear the breathing...............

    "The force is with you young Skywalker, but you are not a Jedi yet"

    I love that scene

    DARTHSHAME Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 19, 2003
    This still gives me goosebumps.

    I also love Vader's first scene in ANH. The way he walks through the door and looks around. I saw this as a kid and knew he was the baddest dude in the whole universe LOL.

    Love Yoda raising the X-wing from the swamp.
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    DARTHSHAME Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 19, 2003
    I forgot to mention another scene. I love the scene in ESB when Lando leads them to the dining room and Vader rises from the chair. Han shoots at him and Vader blocks the shots and then takes the gun. That is my favorite scene in the entire movie.
  23. SithLord_1270

    SithLord_1270 Jedi Knight star 3

    Nov 5, 2008
    .....when Vader reveals to Luke that he is his father. To me that changed the whole nature of the saga. I think that forced Luke to grow up a LOT. He had to question things. It also went from a simple hero kills the villain, avenges daddy to this is ur father u have to figure out how to handle it.

    .....when the Falcon bursts thru the flames of the exploding Second Deathstar

    ....when Anakin/Vader tries to comfort Luke as he's dying

    .....when Luke burns the suit.

    ....when I first saw Yoda fight. People chuckled when he produced his lightsaber....until he ignited it and took it to Dooku.
    Then they were cheering.

    .....when Luke has beaten Vader down, he looks at Vader's severed hand then looks at his own artificial one....& pulls back from the edge. And makes that awesome declaration.

    .....when Vader Force Chokes Ozzel while giving orders to Piett.

    ......when Vader "accepts" Capt. Needa's apology.

    ......when Vader & the Clones march into the Temple. I actually cheered them on. :)
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  24. A'den Skirata

    A'den Skirata Jedi Knight star 2

    Sep 26, 2012
    That moment when....You realize Vader is Luke's father :eek:
  25. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012
    Two moments really stand out for me. The moment that great Star Destroyer booms over-head. Nothing like that had been seen before in a cinema. It was just.....striking. The other moment is that sudden, deadening end to Obi-Wan and Vader's duel in ROTS. Its all spinning blades and drama and then...STOP! He's cut his limbs off?! Wha?!! Its the numbing finality of it. The brutality. Shocking.
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