JCC ''That movie'' in Benghazi.

Discussion in 'Community' started by BaronNoir, Sep 12, 2012.

  1. Katana_Geldar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 8
    I did, it makes my blood boil and that's excluding the fact that I was in the city that day. I only heard the sirens though.

    But this gives fuel to every racist in sight, it just makes things worse. Have our loud-mouthed heavy-weights like Allan Jones weighed in on this yet? He'd be foaming at the mouth.
  2. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    Well Jello Islam is a religion very much in it's infancy. So the point at which they reach the need to separate religion and politics, for an already highly political religion, is hard to determine. It's not just "how" they get there, it's "when" and "why" too.

    I suppose you could argue this infantile idiocy is retrograde Islam dying the death of a thousand cuts, but I guess I'm at the point of asking how much longer we need to tolerate this.

    Great op-ed piece on it:
    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...no-friend-of-islam-either-20120916-260e8.html
  3. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    I don't see the need to patronizingly call Islam "a religion very much in its infancy" when Muhammad existed a great deal closer to Jesus than we do to Muhammad. And saying secular ideals don't exist in the Muslim world is just ignorant.
    Last edited by Darth Guy, Sep 16, 2012
    Dark Lady Mara likes this.
  4. Katana_Geldar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 8
  5. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    Guy I've written a lot about this on these boards in the past so I'm not going to bother retreading myself on this front, especially for you.

    If you want you can go through my posting history.
  6. Juliet316 Streak for Colors Bonanza Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2005
    star 7
    Read that two mosques were vandalized here in Virginia.:(
  7. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    Ender talks about no longer tolerating "this," and Katana says we're "too nice." So what's the plan? Chinese-style re√ęducation camps? Soviet-style forcible atheism? How are "we" going to deal with this Other that we in the West are completely incapable of understanding?
  8. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    Jello, honestly?

    When this happens in your backyard and you've spent a substantial period of time defending Islam from ignorant denunciations by Christians and racists alike, you tell me how you feel.

    Australia's a multicultural society and that has worked immense to our benefit. But this? You do not come here to trash a country because some retard in the US made a film that the US government tried to have taken down and have your kids holding placards saying "behead anyone who offends the prophet." No. Emphatically no. **** that, emphatically too.

    If I want to suggest Mohammed diddled kiddies and was a fiend for penis, I should be free to do so without fear of being targeted for reprisals. Similarly if anyone wants to mock my atheism, I'm content to wish them a good day and not plan cruel and inventive ways to punish them with violence. That's the benefit of liberalism; live and let live.

    This is deeply troubling stuff, Jello, for a liberal. It's fundamentally challenging what liberalism's limits are. I mean, it's easy to say it's handful of bad apples, but had 400 people protesting in Sydney with such charming slogans as the aforementioned beheading one; "Obama, Obama, we love Osama" and "your dead are in hell, ours are in paradise". That's a systemic issue.

    And kids with these slogans? How is not deeply troubling.

    When you have to reconsider your stance on Huntington's thesis it's a bad day, Jello.
    Last edited by GrandAdmiralJello, Sep 16, 2012
  9. Katana_Geldar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 8
    IMHO this is about abuses of freedom of speech. I said the very same thing about funeral picketing ages ago and I got shouted down. We're tolerant to extend these freedoms to people in the West, but the problem is not everyone plays by those rules. Because we're tolerant, we can be taken advantage of by people who simply don't respect this. We're too nice.

    I really don't think those who started the ideals freedom of speech had this in mind at all. It probably was freedom from reprisals for speaking out.
  10. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    We don't have a freedom of speech, though.
  11. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    I completely understand you venting in outrage about it. I understand why it's something you'd be appalled by. But saying that they've crossed a line is one thing--what concerns me is the sort of things that style of thinking leads to. I mean, I'm seeing a subtext of "maybe multiculturalism doesn't work"--and you're right to be troubled by that, because it is a troubling thought.
  12. Katana_Geldar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 8
    Yes we do.

    Jello, tolerance is one thing. But it's something altogether when that tolerance is used against you. As in, to walk all over you.
    Last edited by Katana_Geldar, Sep 16, 2012
  13. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    I still think multiculturalism is a wonderful thing, though Jello. 20% of Australians were born overseas; 50% were either born overseas or had parent(s) born overseas - this is a source of pride for us. This is something that we think reflects well upon us. Where you run into issues is that multiculturalism is supposed to be a tapestry rather than a melting pot, but it's a two way street. Give, and take. I fail to see how the behavior on Saturday fits in with the ideals of liberalism and multiculturalism which define Australian life.

    Think of it this way; for you, this happened to a US ambassador in an already highly-unstable part of the world. You didn't have people try and take control of a major US city in this fashion, to protest against the right of one fundamentalist Christian to express his idiotic ideas in public. Property was damaged. People were hurt. And illiberal views were given a soapbox from which to be broadcast.

    This is not multiculturalism. It's a clash between illiberal and liberal ideals. Think of it this way; if I define the Australian way as being a tapestry of interwoven cultures to which everyone benefits, I would feel comfortable saying that Saturday's protest is a challenge to the Australian way.
  14. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    Katana it's great that you found that link, really it is but if you can find for me constitutional provisions for the freedom of speech then I'd be happy. It's an implicit right but during the second world war for example, the media was heavily censored by the government and the government has the ways and means to do so through the statutes that establish and govern ASIO and ASIS.
  15. Katana_Geldar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 8
    It didn't look like it had happened in Australia, that was the strangest thing about watching it om the news. I recognised the land marks, as well as the fact that I'd been there earlier that day. But it didn't look like Australia. Things like that don't happen here.

    @Ender_Sai You mean something like this?

    You do have a point though. We don't have a bill of rights, we don't have freedom of speech specifically defined in our constitution. I think it's more taken as a given and there's limitations put on it by the law, but I could be wrong.
    Last edited by Katana_Geldar, Sep 16, 2012
  16. Condition2SQ Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 4
    Perhaps I'm being a bit naive, but why the need to embrace multiculturalism as dogma? It seems superfluous to me. This is purely anecdotal, but in grade school being tolerant of individuals of all racial and religious backgrounds was heavily emphasized, and I'm seeing it now with my nieces and nephews as well. Axiomatic therefrom is that ideas that express intolerance are to be shunned, regardless of who expresses them. Stating by fiat that all ideologies equally engender tolerance makes no sense. The claim that Mohammed (or anybody else) be beyond criticism and that anyone who criticizes him deserves condemnation is an absolutist and fundamentally intolerant statement, and I don't see why we need to jump through hoops to accommodate it, especially considering Mohammed was a rather unsavory individual by 21st century standards.
    Last edited by Condition2SQ, Sep 16, 2012
  17. Katana_Geldar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 8
    Condition, I'm putting it down to the innate insecurity of overly religious and/or zealous people. It's something that I just can't understand, but it's there.
  18. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    Multiculturalism has only been a positive for the countries where it's active policy though. This isn't an issue of multiculturalism, because multiculturalism requires cohesion between all the cultures involved. It's not that the majority lets a bunch of yapping kids crawl all over them; it's that through shared experience we end up richer and more diverse for it.

    I fail to see how multiculturalism was ever permissive of this nasty, pervasive facet of Islamic culture. That's where I'm struggling.
  19. Condition2SQ Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 4
    I find Paul Berman's analysis of the theoretical limits and potential pitfalls of liberalism to be pretty compelling.

    Now, I hasten to point out that this absolutely doesn't apply wholesale to the situation with Islam, Islam being far more complicated and having a far more complex history with the societies with which it is presently clashing. But that's somewhat beside the point anyway. The piece is putting liberalism's limits under the microscope. Still, I am also in agreement with Jello about being wary about what the implications of embracing this kind of analysis would entail.
    Last edited by Condition2SQ, Sep 16, 2012
  20. Katana_Geldar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 8
    I rather link what this guy says, expresses my point exactly.
  21. Condition2SQ Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 4
    EDIT: I totally read that backwards and withdraw my support. It actually lends itself to a reading from either side of this argument. Religious hatreds could mean "hatreds of religion" or "hatreds dressed in religion".
    Last edited by Condition2SQ, Sep 16, 2012
    Katana_Geldar likes this.
  22. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    I literally have no idea what to say in response to that.
  23. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    You quoted a working class, lowbrow tabloid. I'm just saying.
  24. Katana_Geldar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 8
    Yes, but I also quoted this guy.

    Besides, the Tele is easier to read on the train. ;)
  25. SithLordDarthRichie London CR

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2003
    star 8
    When the Middle East learns to seperate State & Religion then things should change. Plenty of Christians take offense to things, but even if the Bible itself says you must put to death those who defy God the law of the land prevents such things. In many Islamic nations violent acts such as stoning women is acceptable because they have laws based on what the Koran says.

    And regarding Freedom of Speech - I think anyone can say whatever they want if they aren't violent. If some who follow Islam think those who mock the Prophet should die that is their opinion and they are entitled to it, just as some redneck in Texas would be entitled to say that he thinks it's ok to kill gay people. When we start deciding what people can and can't say we open Freedom fo Speech to abuse where the state can simply decide it knows best what people should be allowed to do and then restrict more and more.

    Protest all you want, be as angry and hateful as you want, but the line is drawn at violence towards people and property that is not your own.
    Last edited by SithLordDarthRichie, Sep 17, 2012