Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by WhinyLuke, Sep 22, 2012.
ROTJ's "story-arc" is the same no matter what Anakin's ghost looks like.
Not sure I understand the distinction you're trying to convey, here.
Here's my opinion about the change :
There was something fishy about that Shaw ghost, that really doesn't make sense when you take the whole saga into account. You can defend the Shaw version on account of your love for it, your nostalgia, or whatever. I grew up with the OOT, no prequels were out or even expected, and I sure love the earliest version the best (Yub Yub FTW). But it's undeniable that it doesn't make any sense for Anakin to show up with this physical appearance. Old, with hair, no scars, and Jedi robes. That's not Anakin reborn. That's who Anakin could have been, but never was. However, both Yoda and Obi-Wan show up looking exactly like they did at the time of their death. As they were.
However, there's also something fishy about Christensen : Why the white robes? Had he worn his Jedi clothes from ROTS, then the ghost would have made perfect sense : When Anakin became a Sith, his Jedi self was dead for the Force. Therefore, his Force Ghost was created at this exact time (ROTS appearance), but because Anakin was still a physical entity, even though he had become Darth Vader, his ghost was unable to appear (some kind of Force ghost glitch if you will).
When Vader finally died, his Force Ghost -which had been sort of stuck in Limbo or whatever- for 20 years was finally freed and able to appear. I believe that it is the Force itself that creates the Force Ghosts, not the Jedi. The Jedi just somehow found a way to re-appear and interact with the living using that Force Ghost, but they did not create it. It makes sense that the Force would create Anakin's ghost at the time of ROTS, as the Jedi that he had been was definitely considered dead by then. It seems to be what Obi-Wan explains to Luke in ANH anyway.
However like I said, the white Jedi robes don't make any sense. Only two appearances would have been perfect : Christensen with his own darker Jedi robes, or Shaw with no hair and scars (which in that case would have meant that the Force Ghosts were created at the time of the Jedi's physical passing, and therefore used his final physical appearance as a template). However, we got neither. So Christensen is already a little improvement over Shaw's ghost as it was in the OOT. But it's not perfect just yet.
But Ben was clearly wrong about Anakin being dead , anakin was alive , he lived to be an old man , he died as an old man .
so why should he suddenly get rejuvenated ?
I'm not sure you read my whole post, because I never suggested he was rejuvenated, nor that Anakin had died physically at the time of ROTS.
Basically, here's my opinion (it's not facts, I know it, but it makes sense as far as I'm concerned) : The Force creates a Force Ghost for every Jedi who passes away. Those ghosts couldn't interact with the living until Qui-Gon found a way to do it (how Anakin learned about this technique is a mystery, but being the Chosen One, I guess you could say he just found a way to do it himself).
When Anakin ceased to be a Jedi to become Darth Vader, the Force "lost" him and thought he was dead, then created his Force Ghost. But because Anakin was still very much alive physically, his Ghost was trapped in the Netherworlds of the Force, unable to appear or interact with the world of the living. But this Ghost already existed at the time of ROTS (hence the ROTS appearance).
When Anakin died physically at the end of ROTJ, his 20-year-old ghost was finally set free and able to appear.
I like this idea because if the Force Ghost symbolizes the soul, it means Anakin's soul was trapped in some sort of Limbo, Purgatory, or even Hell perhaps, for as long as he was under the influence of the DS, until he returned to the light and freed it.
By the way, Anakin the Jedi died during ROTS as far as I'm concerned. What came back at the end of ROTJ was Anakin the "good man", but I'm not sure you could say he was a Jedi all over again just because he threw the Emperor down some shaft after 20 years of murders and destructions. His Jedi self disappeared for good during ROTS, only to come back as a Force Ghost.
I'm talking about the film , in the SE he's shown as rejuvenated .
But he hadn't passed away . Also - this idea that the Force gets your ghost ready for you is a bit premature , sounds a bit like the coffin-maker getting the coffin ready when he hears you're not well gag . btw - does Count Dooku have a Force Ghost waiting 'on the peg' so to speak ?
Well its called Return of the Jedi .
I still don't get why you mentioned this though. I never said his ghost had been rejuvenated. I said it had been created years before.
That's what I said. Twice. It's even part of my explanation.
I'd say he does, but it will never get "unlocked" because of his death as an unrepentent Sith. Basically, Jedi who turn to the DS and never come back have to suffer the loss of their souls forever, through the unability to ever set their ghosts free.
A precision : I never said the Force gets your ghost ready in advance. I said the ghost was created upon the Force feeling it has lost you. It usually happens on a Jedi's death. In the case of Anakin however, it was at the time of his turn.
I'm -again- only giving a personal opinion here, and not trying to pass it as fact. I just don't have the patience to write "I think", "my opinion is", and the likes in front of every sentence.
Return of Nice Anakin would have sounded quite lame. Can you be a Jedi after 20 years spent murdering and torturing across the galaxy? And before it gets mentioned, I know Lucas has already officially stated that the title referred to Anakin and not anyone else.
It was due to the assistance of Obi-Wan and/or Yoda ( ROTJ commentary; Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays; The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader ).
because it's something in the SE which is ridiculous .
but you said :
The Force creates a Force Ghost for every Jedi who passes away.
so I pointed out that anakin hadn't passed away .
is it like on Amazon when they do a pre-order ?
Can your soul be redeemed after 20 years murdering etc. ? obvously yes , and obviously yes to your question , Return of the Jedi .
While I certainly enjoy Hayden's ghost far more than Shaw's, I think the way they did Hayden's ghost was stupid. I agree with you. They just found a picture of him and put it in the movie digitally, rather than him getting a new pair of robes-his old black jedi robes which would make sense (black robes aren't always evil-he wore them when he was good), white robes to symbolize purity and redemption (that could go etheir way). Just taking a picture of his face and posting on Shaw's robes were lame. His expression was not only creepy but didn't make sense, compared to smiling Alec Guiness Obi wan Kenobi.
What do you mean his force ghost was stuck in Limbo for 20 years? Anakin was Vader for over 20 years. I don't get what his soul being stuck in limbo means...
As far as you're concerned. It still makes sense. More than this hairy, smooth-faced, old Anakin played by Shaw anyway.
You take only one half of what I said and claim I'm omitting the other half. What I said was that the Force creates the Ghosts when it stops sensing the Jedi's presence. In many cases this is when the Jedi passes away. In the case of Anakin, however, it was at the time of his turn, and the ghost wouldn't appear because he was still alive. You have repeatedly ignored that part in your replies since you keep saying "But Anakin was still alive." Yes, he was. That's my point. There's no need to address this part. But I will argue this no further. Posters will read my previous posts and see for themselves.
Absolutely, yes... [/IRONY]
Obviously? I do not believe it can. Then again, I'm not really into Catholicism and such. As far as I'm concerned, Anakin came back as a redeemed murderer, but as a murderer anyway.
Did he need both of them to learn it? Or just one? What if just one helped him?
We don't know the answers to your speculation.
The sources listed differ somewhat. Lucas mentions both; the Annotated Screenplays only mention Yoda IIRC; the Windham book covers the topic in a conversation with Obi-Wan. I would say it required at least one of them.
I had a theory that when someone turns to the Darkside, their soul changes and creates a new "identity", soul, totally different than their old soul, not just a character change, but the creation of a new person.
The force itself creates force ghosts? Are you saying the Force is sentinent being, not just an energy field, but a personal being, like a God?
What do you mean, his force ghost was stuck in Limbo somewhere?
Do Force ghosts live forever, in eternity?
Can oneness be achieved with the Darkside of the Force? Can a Sith become a Force ghost?
When living things, Jedi or otherwise, die, does their conciousness fade away and their soul "dies", disappears, vanishes, into the netherworld of the Force, gone forever? Does Padme, can padme and shmi skywalker, retain her identity? Does that mean only 4 jedi live in the afterlife? Can obi wan and yoda help people who die become immortal? In my opinion, obi wan kenobi and yoda should bring everyone back from the netherworld. But I guess their conciosuness faded....
what does that mean ?
So you don't think his soul was redeemed ? and you don't think he was a Jedi as he lay dying on the death star ?
That debate is an entirely different can of worms, which may have been touched upon in this thread already but I'm too lazy to check at the moment.
I'm not into Catholicism either but it depends on how one defines "redemption." I think if Anakin had survived ROTJ, he would have lived his life very differently and done as much as he could to atone for his past, and therefore I think he was redeemed. Was he "a Jedi"? I have no idea, but I don't think "good person" and "Jedi" synonymous necessarily. However, if redemption in your (general "your") terms means "the ability to completely atone for the past," then it would be impossible for Anakin to be redeemed, as it would be impossible for many people to be redeemed.
Forgiveness is a different topic and is entirely up to the person doing the forgiving (or not).
PRO SHAW: for Luke, he sees Anakin as his father, and through his eyes it would make more sense to see him as older.
PRO HAYDEN: for the audience who grew with anakin.
I like both fine. However I do see the comments where Shaw looked a little too old and Hayden looked too young
On Hayden looking "too young": of course he doesn't look like the chronological age of Anakin at that point. He's not intended to.
I said it in my first post. To me, only two options were good choices :
- A ghost played by Shaw, but with no hair and scars. In that case Lucas would have shown that the ghosts were the image of the Jedi at the time of their passing (as is the case with Yoda and Obi-Wan).
- A ghost played by Christensen with his dark Jedi robes. In that case Lucas suggests (that's the way I perceive it anyway) that my theory is right.
Now, the two versions we had are flawed. Christensen with white Jedi robes never happened, so it doesn't make sense for him to wear them in death. An older ghost played by Shaw but with hair and no scars makes absolutely no sense, even if you consider that Force Ghosts' appearances depend on the person seeing them. Why would Luke imagine his father without scars and with this particular haircut when he saw him for the first time an hour before completely bald and scarred? Makes no sense.
Shaw's ghost only made sense before the prequels were released, and of course I never had a problem with him growing up as I simply assumed that Anakin had looked like that before he had become Vader. That's simply not true anymore, and Shaw's appearance has become -another- continuity wart in the overall saga. I would have been very happy had they just erased his hair and added in the scars, but they chose to go with Christensen to reinforce the sense of continuity and I'm just glad they did something about it.
No I don't think his soul was redeemed. Like I already said, I believe his soul was freed from the nightmarish Netherworld of the Force it had been trapped in for so many years. Freed, but not redeemed. And I do not believe he died a Jedi. But again, that's only a personal choice. I don't believe you can be a Jedi after all the atrocities he committed. No matter how many Sith he kills.
I assume you mean "for the audience who grew up with Christensen's Anakin", and it's not that simple. I grew up with the OOT, long before Lucas even decided that it was time for him to start working on the prequels.
I absolutely agree. I don't believe Anakin killed Palpatine to save Luke (only). He also saved himself by doing it, and he effectively ended his twenty or so years as a Sith. But was he a Jedi all over again? That's what I disagree with.
In 2004, when the DVDs came out and the change was first discussed, my friends were constantly arguing that "Return of the Jedi" referred to Anakin returning as a Jedi after he killed Palpatine. Well, I disagree. I think "Return of the Jedi" specifically refers to the return of Anakin's Ghost from the Netherworld of the Force. So there is no contradiction. Old Anakin never was a Jedi. He was only a former Jedi, a former Sith, and a tired old man who wanted to quit a life of butchering and killing millions.
Believe what you will though. There's room for other explanations. Thankfully.
But if the Force Ghost looks like the person in the very instant of death then Obi-Wan should have a nasty scar in his side, he does not.
Anakin would then be more than scared and hairless, he would also lack a few limbs.
Also you say that Shaws ghost made sense before the PT as that is how he was supposed to look before the turn.
Shaw is WAY too old to be an Anakin before the turn. Luke and Leia were hidden from their father when they were born so going just on the OT, Anakin turned around that time. Fast forward some 20+ years. Shaw as the ghost is now intended to be an Anakin 20+ years younger?
I have a hard time seeing that, that would mean that Anakin in RotJ is really old, at least 80-90.
You say that Force ghosts can look the age at the time of their passing. Anakin did not die when he turned, he died in RotJ as an older man.
Luke proves in RotJ that his father was there all along, he had only forgotten his true self. So Anakin soul is there the whole time, twisted and corrupted by the Dark Side venom possibly but there none the less.
So by that reasoning Shaw would have been wrong even with just the OT.
Unless we assume that Force ghosts are healed of their wounds, like Obi-Wan not having a big scar and Anakin having his hair back and his scars removed. If we keep Shaw in the unmasking scene then Shaw makes sense in the Ghost scene.
If Hayden has to be in the ghost scene then he should also be in the unmasking scene.
Bye for now.
How can you tell? He's dressed.
No. My point was that Anakin's ghost was created before he lost the duel.
At the time the PT did not exist, there was no way to know what age Anakin was supposed to be at any given time. Especially because at that time, all we had to go by were Yoda's words to Luke claiming that Jedi could live for hundreds of years. Shaw's appearance made sense.
they can, but that's not what I said about Anakin.
His father was there, but he was not a Jedi anymore. That was my point.
He was not, because his past was vague at best. You could have assumed he looked like that before his transformation into Vader, since you had no information whatsoever about his age, and you could assume the Force could prolong his life or delay the aging process, if Yoda's words were anything to go by.
That explanation makes sense, I just prefer mine. Like I said numerous times, I do not claim to possess the ultimate explanation about the nature of the ghosts. But my explanation makes perfect sense and I like it, therefore it is what I choose to believe.
I wish he was but I can live with Shaw's face.
Why does Shaw have to be in both scenes?
I do think the Hayden ghost makes more sense in the context of the films. There are two lines throughout the six films that pretty much spell it out for me. First one belonging to Yoda in ROTS, where he says “The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.” And again, perhaps more importantly, in ROTJ when Luke sees Obi-Wan’s ghost. Ben clearly says “Your father was consumed by the dark side of the force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened the good man who was your father was destroyed”.
Also, I think it adds further poignancy to the title Return of the Jedi.