Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by WhinyLuke, Sep 22, 2012.
Ben and Yoda were wrong, though.
OK, this has gone on for far too long.
While I entertained each and every one of your points for the sake of the argument, I feel it is time for me to go back to the basics and repeat once more what my theory is because of that part of your post :
Force Ghosts, in my theory, are not "ghosts" and I only refer to them as ghosts because they are widely acknowledged as "Force Ghosts" by the community.
They are images, created by the Force, of all individuals who've had a priviledged connection to it during their lives. I of course refer to Jedi. Whenever that connection is lost, the ghost is created.
Most Jedi are Jedi for their whole lives, therefore, that connection is only lost when the Jedi passes away -which explains Obi-Wan's and Yoda's ghosts looking like they do-. In the case of Vader however, that connection was lost during the events of ROTS. Even if Anakin returned at the end of ROTJ, the connection had been broken there and then. And that loss of connection triggered the creation of that "ghost", which, since Anakin was still very much a living, breathing being, could not appear and ended up being stuck in Limbo, Purgatory, Hell, whatever... for as long as he kept living.
At the end of ROTJ, his ghost was freed. End of story. We can now see that Christensen makes sense. Assuming that theory is right of course.
But until proven wrong factually ("that's not possible because in that film such character says such line that directly contradicts this theory", etc...), I will consider it as the real deal.
It has nothing to do with who should have scars or robotic limbs. It has nothing to do with who looks the right age. All this is speculation. Shaw was an old man, but who's to say the ghost he played wasn't supposed to be a younger version of himself? They often only use the same actors playing characters at various ages for the sake of being easily recognizable. Imagine a young actor appearing on screen at the end of the film next to Obi-Wan and Yoda in 1983. Nobody would have known who he was, they would have had to assume it was Anakin. But they used Shaw and everyone knew who he was instantly. He may very well be playing a 40 year old Anakin there. Who's to say?
Anyway, all that speculation about what Anakin pre-turn should have looked like when taking into account Owen and Beru's ages is irrelevant to the matter at hand. This is all going nowhere. What matters is the theory, and whether it sounds possible as far as the mythology of the films is concerned, or not.
You now have my full theory laid out before your eyes. Read it, please make sure you understand it, and then tell me what doesn't make sense about it, because I just don't see it.
Ok, problems I have with your theory.
1) "Ghosting" is described as a learned ability, Yoda talsk in RotS how he will teach Obi-Wan to talk with Qui-Gon and that Qui-Gon will have things to teach Obi-Wan. That suggest that this is not an inherent gift from just having a connection to the Force.
2) "They are images, created by the Force, of all individuals who've had a priviledged connection to it during their lives. I of course refer to Jedi. Whenever that connection is lost, the ghost is created."
By this logic Siths should have Force ghosts too because they have a connection to the Force as well. Also Anakins connection to the Force wasn't lost in RotS, he could could still make use of it. The Dark Side is a PART of the Force, not a separate thing.
Anakin became evil and twisted yes but the Force connection was still there.
Also with the PT and the midis, we know that ALL living beings have a connection to the Force, some have a stronger connection is all.
3) This image, when is it created? At the birth of these Jedi or only when they have gained enough knowledge to actually use the Force?
So would Luke have a Force Ghost in ANH or ESB? Or did he get one only when he became a Jedi?
Assuming that he died moments after, what would the ghost look like? Like RotJ Luke? If so then there is no reason why Anakins ghost can't look like Shaw, scars or not. Luke got a ghost and that looked like he did at that moment. Anakin got his ghost back so why wouldn't that alter it's apperance to match? Or is the apperance of the ghost only variable the FIRST time you get it and not when you get it back?
4) What about Force users that are not Jedi? It is possible to learn how to use the Force and not be a Jedi. The Jedi are only an organisation after all. What about Jedi that leave the Jedi order but don't fall to the Dark Side, would they get Force ghosts?
5) "They often only use the same actors playing characters at various ages for the sake of being easily recognizable. Imagine a young actor appearing on screen at the end of the film next to Obi-Wan and Yoda in 1983. Nobody would have known who he was, they would have had to assume it was Anakin. But they used Shaw and everyone knew who he was instantly. He may very well be playing a 40 year old Anakin there. Who's to say?"
Actually they quite often use different actors to portray younger versions of the character, ex in Indy 3, River Phoenix plays young Indy.
Two different actors play Anakin in the PT.
Also the script calls Anakins Force Ghost "elderly" so he wasn't intended to be young. Also IF Lucas wanted the ghost to look young all he had to do would be to hire a younger actor (say in his 40's) to play unmasked Vader, with lots of scars and makeup. Then he appears healed in the ghost scene. But Lucas didn't, he cast an older actor to play both scenes, that is clear indication that Anakins Force ghost isn't intended to e before the turn.
Owen and Berus ages are relevant because you said that we have no info about Anakins age but we do. Nothing rock solid but enough to get some idea about his age.
Bye for now.
Like I said, they had to learn to use that "ghost" to reappear and interact with the world of the living, so that's the ability they are talking about.
Like I also said, I think the ghosts are images of individuals who've had a privileged connection with the Force. Sith do not have this since they are the source of the Force's lack of balance, as per Lucas himself. They are not meant to exist if they have to be destroyed to bring balance back. They also use the Force while Jedi serve it. It makes sense that only the Jedi would be "granted" the gift of a ghost.
This image is like an echo of the individual within the Force. It's only triggered by the loss of connection. It's not something that is created and then grows along the individual, it's more of a "trace", or "resonance" left by the individual when he/she departs (again, I'm not referring to death here, but to the loss of that connection).
As long as they do not threaten the balance of the Force and use it appropriately, it makes sense that they would also have these ghosts. But they haven't found a way to use them to reappear, like Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin, and to a lessser extent Qui-Gon, have.
While what you say makes perfect sense, my point was only that my theory does not rely on what age Shaw was supposed to be and therefore the whole debate as to who should have played him, what age he was supposed to be as a ghost, what age was he supposed to be compared to Owen and Beru, is all an irrelevant debate that does not alter the veracity or at least the possibility that my theory is correct.
The only thing that comes out of this is the fact that Shaw never did make sense in the film. He does not look like he did at the time of his death, like Obi-Wan and Yoda do, and Lucas chose to take him out and have him replaced. There's a reason why this happened : Shaw's appearance was flawed.
Like I said many posts before, I would also have accepted had they erased Shaw's hair and added in scars. In that case, Ghosts would simply be that : ghosts. Images of the dead person. But they didn't, and that tells me something.
The Darkside of the Force naturally exists and it's is a part of nature! It's is the people who use it that are the inbalance! Remember the Darkside of the Force cave on Dagobah, Yoda's hiding home refuge planet?
Of course, the Jedi also use the Force, and in various books it's said that the Sith serve the dark side. The thing is that the Sith promote the dominance of the dark side to the exclusion of balance, while the Jedi efforts are seen as preservation of the balance.
Both are a natural state/part of nature, and can't/cannot ever be DESTROYED!!!!!
Yes, the Jedi make use of the Force. What I meant rather was that the Sith use it as a slave to accomplish their own personal, selfish goals, while the Jedi seek to preserve the natural state of things through their use of the Force.
Can the Sith/DarkSide Force-sensitive users, become one with the DarkSide of the Force?
Can oneness be achieved with the DarkSide of the Force???
In the EU, Sith have become incorporeal, apparently immortal- but not invulnerable- spirits. Usually they are restricted to certain locations, like their tombs.
Ghost aren't just images of the dead person, Obi-ans hsows that. He continued to exist as Ghost. I would think that Anakins Force ghost is also a continuation of the person he was when he died, not the person he was just before the turn. That would weaken his character arc and the journey he goes on.
Bye for now.
Right, so that's one interpretation you can have of what Yoda says. Where are the facts contradicting my theory here?
Yet Qui-Gon's body didn't and he still managed to retain his conscisousness, so what's the rule here? That has nothing to do with disappearing. The contradiction in this is obviously due to the fact that Lucas chose to have Obi-Wan disappear for commodity's sake : it was easier to have him vanish then to show him being cut in half. Why? Because of the ratings and the FX available at the time.
Explain why Qui-Gon didn't disappear and became a ghost? What about Anakin?
No, that's not what I'm saying. Anakin's ghost was not "frozen", he was lost. But yes, he was still conscious of everything that happened, as a Force Ghost is the image of the Jedi through the Force, it is also a part of the Force, which is everything and everywhere, therefore sees everything. The Ghosts are omniscient. They see through the Force.
I don't think you remember me saying that the reason Anakin's ghost was freed was not because he died, but because he died redeemed. Dooku's ghost -because yes, I think he has one too- will never be freed, since he died an unrepentent Sith. His soul will be trapped in the Limbo forever.
I'm an OT kid and always had a problem with Shaw's appearance if he was meant to be Anakin at the time of his death. Even as a kid, I could never figure out why he had his hair back. That's not a "wound". The only way I found to make sense of it was that Shaw was actually portraying Anakin as he looked before he became encased in the Vader armour. I'm not gonna lie and say that I wanted Shaw to be replaced by Christensen when the PT came out. I'm not gonna say that I wasn't content with Shaw. I'm just glad they did something about it, and I understand why they did it.
I still don't see a contradiction with my theory here. We are talking about supernatural entities that feed on a supernatural form of energy, and it's useless to try and make sense of how it all works. They are not ghosts to me, you have to think of them as the souls of the Jedi echoing through the Force. Souls are eternal, so it makes sense that they would live on. Obi-Wan's, Yoda's, Anakin's. All of them. That doesn't contradict the fact that Anakin's soul was lost when he sold it to the Dark Side. It was lost there and then. Trapped in the Abyss of the Force. And freed from this trap when Anakin killed Palpatine.
Christensen as a ghost is a not-too-subtle way to tell us that Anakin's soul had been lost for 20 years. Was it supposed to suddenly transform into Shaw as it was freed 20 years later? No. Souls / Ghosts don't age. If Anakin's had been materialised twenty years before, when the Force felt his departure, then that's what it is supposed to look like forever.
Then there are also Obi-Wan's words about Anakin in ANH. Most people either think he's lying to Luke when he says his father was killed, or that he was simply wrong about him.
Jedi see through the Force. When they speak, they express the point of view of the Force. The Force has considered Anakin dead for twenty years. As a Jedi, he is dead. As a human being, he is still alive. But his Force ghost is already there, somewhere.
And Luke showed this to be wrong, the good person that was Anakin was always there. Obi-Wan couldn't see it but Luke did.
Basically your theory is that turning means the persons soul is lost. They turn, a ghost is created but is trapped because the person is still alive and it stays trapped until the person dies as a redeemed person. Seems far too convoluted, simpler version; when a Jedi turns, the "priviliged" connection is broken but since the Force is aware that the person is alive, no ghost is created. If that person manages to find his or her way back into the light the connection is re-established. And then when the person really dies, the ghost is created.
In closing, your theory seem to say that Dooku gets a worse fate than Maul or Palpatine. They never had this "priviliged" connection since they never were Jedi and thus no Force ghosts are created when they turn. So they could do all manner of evil and when they die, their souls are returned to the Force pool same as all others. Poor Dooku, his soul sits alone there in Limbo.
Bye for now
Well, here's a 'kid' who understood at the age of 11 back in '83 that Shaw Anakin was healed like Ben and Yoda, and wasn't meant to represent specifically how he looked before he turned. Besides, you're still trying to 'make sense of it'......remember what this poster said:
"We are talking about supernatural entities that feed on a supernatural form of energy, and it's useless to try and make sense of how it all works."
But is your theory the actual reasoning behind "them" (read: Lucas) "doing something about it"???? You have yet to establish that.
That's because he was lying about him, in terms of the context of Luke's question (see next two posts below).
Are they 'infallible' then? Remember, what Obi-Wan said in ROTJ about his statement being 'true'.... "from a certain point of view" . It wasn't necessarily the 'point of view' of the Force.
Except Luke asked " how did my father die ?" He did NOT ask, "what is my father's standing, in terms of Jedi-hood, these days?"
Healed like Yoda... LOL
Ankle-biters gonna ankle bite...
Also known as: argument-via-"funny"-internet-picture, with plenty of 'net-speak' thrown in ("KTHX"). All that was missing from that picture was an "OMG".... Survey says of your latest attempt: Still not a refutation/argument/answer to post #265.
You're ILL, Yoda!! NOT WOUNDED! Therefore.....NO HOSPITAL FOR YOU!!!!
- The "Great Harmonizer", who also goes by, "The Force-Deux-Ex-Machina-god of the ex-post facto SW universe"....
Is there an echo in here? Echo in here?
The thing is anyone can see problems with that reasoning just as easily as you see problems with mine. If Qui-Gon didn't disappear, yet managed to create a Force Ghost, if Anakin didn't disappear, yet Yoda and Obi-Wan went ahead and saved him from becoming an energy stain in the Force, how does it all work? Qui-Gon dies, yet somehow uses the Force while dead to prevent his soul to merge? Anakin dies, yet is put on stand-by for a few seconds while Yoda and Obi-Wan use the Force to save him?
We do not know whether Force Ghosts are still Force users. The EU might have said so, the films didn't. So how can they act upon things in death? If the Force swallows you whole when you die, how can you have the time / the energy / the ability to retain your consciousness? Qui-Gon died. If you lose your conscience when you die, there is no way he could have "found a way to come back" in death. The only possible explanation is that we actually retain our consciousness in death, and Qui-Gon only managed to come back from the "world of Force ghosts" (cheesiness intended) to interact with the living again. That was his achievement.
Yoda says "Luminous beings we are. Not this crude matter". That's very important. What are Force Ghosts, if not literally the luminous beings we are? When we die, the crude matter is destroyed. The luminous being (soul, Force Ghost, etc.) lives on.
No matter how you look at it, you cannot interpret Yoda's word about being merged with the Force as "we disappear when we die". Because he either A/ doesn't know about Qui-Gon's reappearance yet, and therefore doesn't know exactly what happens after death or B/ knows about QUi-Gon's technique, and therefore knows you don't have to disappear when you die.
Also, what's incompatible between becoming a Force Ghost and merging with the Force? If the Force is what materialises the ghosts, then they are effectively a part of it, merged with it. There is no contradiction.
That's not how a "proper" director works (whether Lucas is one is another debate). You want to put your vision on the screen, not have the screen dictates what happens on it. If Lucas wanted Vader to slash through Obi-Wan, there was no way he would settle for a stabbing motion. He would have to find a way to have this happen, with what technology was available at the time, and perhaps make compromises with the graphic content in order to get the rating he was aiming for.
And Shaw should be bald. This is endless.
Maybe because Shaw doesn't make sense.
That's my mistake actually. I shouldn't have said "omniscient". I only meant they could see everything that was happening, when it happened. Not that they could see the future, which is always in motion. I don't believe the Force to be a God-like entity. It's a living organism.
Anakin and Vader are one and the same physically. Spiritually though, Anakin is shattered for as long as he lives as a Sith.
I think it's important to remember that we are dealing with fantasy here. Not the real world.
I'm a firm believer that Anakin's return was bound to have him die. It was prophetic.
Although for the sake of the argument : if he hadn't died, his soul would have been freed from the Limbo and have joined the real "Force Ghosts" world, where all the Force ghosts are, but would still be unable to appear within the living world.
I absolutely agree with you on that point. I'm still making sense of the idea behind that change. I'm not defending the how, but the why.
As for the unmasking scene, I don't see why that would be necessary to have Hayden there. First of all, the ire of the fans would have been multiplied tenfold. Secondly, it wouldn't be exactly neat to wipe out Shaw's entire appearance within the saga when he was cast and selected to be the original Anakin. And finally, we can assume Anakin's features would have been deformed by his wounds + Dark Side enough that he could have come to resemble Shaw rather than Christensen. Just like you can buy in most films that a kid and a grown-up who look nothing alike can be one and the same character at different ages.
I believe the same. I said "when he killed Palpatine" because that was the physical manifestation and the direct consequence of his return to Good. Anakin did return from the Dark Side. (But I don't believe he was a Jedi all over again, like I stated before).
By that logic, Shaw should be bald. Unless when you pull yourself out of the Force and come back from the dead as a ghost, you also get to choose a new haircut that you've never even had before.
I do not believe that for a second. I think Obi-Wan's lesson to Luke about "points of view" is one of the most fundamental lessons learnt in Star Wars. Obi-Wan was right, from the point of view of the Force. Anakin DIED when he became Vader. Spiritually, when you change your name, you become someone else. Your older self is gone (dead). That does not mean in any way, that you cannot change back into who you were, because things aren't all clear cut and status quo. Anakin did come back as his older self. But for as long as he was Vader, he was spiritually dead, and only physically still alive. But since Jedi don't think in terms of physicality 'this crude matter) but in terms of soul, senses and feelings 'luminous beings), Anakin was dead.
I'm serious when I say that the point of view speech from Obi-Wan is perhaps the most important thing in Star Wars. It is the thing that struck me the most as a kid when I saw ROTJ for the first time. The thing that taught me the most about life. Obi-Wan was right. What he says makes too much sense to be dismissed as a lie or a mistake. He was 100% right, from his point of view. Which is the point of view of the Force (He's a Jedi. He doesn't see things, he senses them through the Force.)
If anything, this debate is proof that Obi-Wan was right. We are two individuals with entirely different points of view. We see the same thing, yet understand it completely differently. The thing now is to accept the other's point of view as sensible, and move on. Like I said many times already : This is my theory. I don't claim to possess the universal truth re: Force Ghosts. I do'nt claim that your theory is wrong. But I will need definite, factual proof that mine is wrong before I can consider believeing in another theory. I have yet to see this proof.
He had it coming.
Also, what if the world of the Force is something like Hell / Purgatory and Paradise, with the Sith ghosts going to Hell, the Jedi to Paradise, and the ones stuck in Limbo in the Purgatory for as long as their fate remains undecided. In that case Dooku would be stuck in Purgatory forever, which is bad enough, but Maul and Palpatine get a ticket straight to Hell and you can be happy enough they got a worse fate than him
On to TOSCHESTATION's post :
We are talking about two different things here. I'm trying to make sense of Anakin's appearance at the end of ROTJ, not how the Force Ghosts work.
Force Ghosts are supernatural, you can 't « make sense » out of them. But that doesn't mean you cannot have assumptions as to how the whole thing works. The important thing is to remember they are just assumptions and cannot be verified nor justified by real life examples.
I'm not trying to establish that. I'm delivering my own personal theory. As long as it is not disproved officially (or by common sense), I can believe whatever I choose to believe in. I'm not trying to prove that Lucas thinks what I think. Only that what he has done hints at my theory being the right one.
No, he was doing exactly what he later said he was saying : « expressing the truth from a certain point of view ». That doesn't make it a lie. There are several truths. Everyone at some point or another has had to experience that in their lives. Universal truth is a lie.
Whose was it? It can go two different ways : Obi-Wan's personal point of view, or the Force's point of view. Because Obi-Wan is a wise old Jedi, who teaches Luke not to « look at things », not to rely on his eyes, but to sense things through the Force, I believe he does not trust his own personal judgment as much as he trusts the Force's.
Therefore I'm inclined to think he is expressing what he has seen through the Force when he says Vader killed Anakin. I think this statement is a fundamental truth when looking at things from the Force perspective (if that's even possible for a common mortal).
Re: your first question - Force Ghosts are not infallible. I don't believe that they are anyway.
I honestly can't see your point here. How does what Luke asked change anything what Obi-Wan said?
That's why they call it 'search'
Personally, I prefer Hayden as Anakin's ghost because I associate the character of Anakin Skywalker more with Hayden and less with Shaw.
"wounds: they are the ONLY thing one can be healed of..because I said so!"
- latest 'memo' from the Star Wars Saga: House-Of-Cards, Rationalization, and Crisis Management Dept.
Well, the problem with your personal theory is that it wouldn't survive a "trial-by-Occam's-Razor", in my view.
"Universal truth is a lie"....is that statement itself 'true'????? It's the same sort of problem with statements like, "the truth is relative": is that statement 'relative' too, or is it the exception to that rule?
Because if Ben was supposedly telling the 'truth' by the criteria of "well your father is no longer a Jedi, so he's dead to the Force", then that statement is a non-sequitur in regards to THE QUESTION THAT LUKE HAD ACTUALLY ASKED: Luke wanted to know how his father had died, physically speaking.
I think it very much does, no matter what option you choose to consider :
> ROTS Christensen is Anakin's ghost in ROTJ, therefore his ghost must have been created at the time of ROTS.
or Shaw :
> Obi-Wan and Yoda both look exactly how they did when they died, yet Shaw somehow has his hair all grown back, therefore his appearance makes no sense.
The pun was intended.
But when you answer somebody else's question, you deliver what you consider to be the one answer to it, not according to what you think the person asking the question wants to hear. For Obi-Wan, Vader very much killed Anakin. I won't go into that any further, Obi-Wan explains everything himself in ROTJ. What he says there makes a world of sense to me, and needs no further explanation.