CT That Old Man Anakin

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by WhinyLuke, Sep 22, 2012.

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  1. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

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    star 4
    Until Mustafar, never in the PT Obi-Wan there's a moment that implies Obi-Wan doesn't think Anakin is good. He might complain about Anakin's penchant for disobedience, but even he knows it usually happens because Anakin wants to set things right (i.e., save his mother, save Padme, save Obi-Wan himself). Obi-Wan still trusts hims up until he sees the hologram from the Temple's slaughter. So there's no contradiction with the OT in that regard. Just because some fans think Anakin is an evil emo, doesn't mean Obi-Wan shares that opinion ;)
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  2. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    [face_thinking]
    [IMG]
  3. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    Which would mean - and in my opinion does mean - that Obi-Wan's 'high' regard for Anakin (which he still holds even years later when he first meets Luke as an adult) was partially based on ignorance.*

    * Obi-Wan's unawareness of the Tusken Slaughter, and his unawareness of the exact..ahem...circumstances surrounding Dooku's death come to mind.


    Edit to add:

    I see that the ankle-biter is still busy posting more pictures...I-) I guess that the SW: House-of-Cards, Rationalizations, and Crisis Managment Dept. ran out of memo paper....[face_laugh]
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 19, 2012
  4. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

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    Well, it's debatable, he might have still considered him a good man but not a good Jedi. My point is, there's no contradiction between Obi-Wan's line in ROTJ and his actual attitude towards Anakin before he turned. Note that neither he nor Yoda believe that anyone can be brought back from the dark side.
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  5. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    In The Life & Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi, Obi-Wan came across the site of the Tusken slaughter at some point during his time on Tatooine, and was told by Qui-Gon's force ghost what happened. So, when he's talking to Luke, he knows.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Nov 19, 2012
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  6. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    star 4
  7. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    I'm not sure that Obi-Wan would have written Anakin off as "not good" even if he knew about the events in question.
  8. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    [IMG]
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  9. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

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    Nov 5, 2001
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    It's interesting that no one except Anakin himself seems to be upset about Tuskens' massacre. Even the peace loving Padme. Anakin knows it's not worthy of a Jedi but it's understandable to others.
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  10. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    Though if it were an 'average Joe' in the GFFA who committed those acts, somehow I doubt that that person would still be considered a 'good person '...so it seems strange to me that such actions would 'stain' one's Jedi-hood, but NOT their personal integrity. [face_thinking]


    To NaTaLie, Iron_Lord, and anakinfansince1983:

    True, these things can be harmonized and made to work. However, one must still remember that back when Obi-Wan was first written to have spoken fondly of the Anakin from the good ole' days , things like the Tusken slaughter, and the summary execution of Dooku*, probably didn't exist on paper back then. And I don't believe that this is/was a coincidence. I firmly believe that had Obi-Wan actually known of these things - or rather had Lucas known about them back when the OT was being made - Obi-Wan would have worded things a bit differently to Luke (and the audience).

    *things that were done while he was still known as Anakin, and hadn't turned to the dark side yet/become Vader.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 19, 2012
  11. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

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    Actually, folks on Tatooine considered Tuskens to be monsters and the rest of the Galaxy couldn't care less. As for Dooku, it can be argued that he was following orders as a soldier in a war (the Jedi being subservient to the government of the Republic).

    But then again, Obi-Wan did not know about all this and it came as a big shock to him (I bet Yoda was less surprised).
  12. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    Even still, would the slaughter be held up as an 'example' to follow?


    Not sure this excuse would really fly. But, let's allow it for the sake of argument: under the 'soldier following the Republic's orders' rubric, why would Obi-Wan consider Anakin any 'less' of a Jedi if he'd known the whole Dooku story? Then again, maybe Obi-Wan wouldn't approve of the 'following orders' defense either. He does have a (justifiable imho) dim view of politicians after all....


    I too think the same of Yoda's view...which for me, makes it all the more strange that he would consider Anakin to be completely 'gone' or 'consumed' by 'Vader' (his words from ROTS), given an already 'pessmistic' or cynical view of Anakin's character to begin with. Under such a view, what meaningful difference can their be between the evil of 'Vader' and the earlier evil or bad traits/flaws of Anakin, other than a difference in 'degree' ??? Or is it all about allegiance to one Force faction - Jedi - vs. another faction - the Sith???

    Edit to add:

    @MandalorianWrath:

    the biggest problem I have with your theory is Anakin's ghost image looking like his ROTS due to a 'loss of connection to the Force'. The problem is, Vader's use of the Force. How can Vader even use the Force if he's supposedly 'lost connection' to it??? If you say, "well ANAKIN lost the Force connection, but now as VADER, he's connected to the Dark Side, you see", which would be a bit convoluted imo, then we're right back to the old 'dual-persona theory'.


    The problem: how to explain "Vaderkin's" (intentional) continued use of the Force.



    His appearance 'made sense' to myself and others. If I may be so bold, your building a theory based on your own personal incredulity, and on nothing else. It sounds like Force ghosts - period - would be a 'stumbling-block' for you. How are Obi-Wan's or Yoda's ghost any more 'logical'??? But they're in the OT, nonetheless. I don't see how Anakin/Shaw's ghost would require any further suspension-of-disbelief. Some might have thought they should have just kept Obi-Wan/Ben as a disembodied voice, but they didn't. Some thought that Anakin shouldn't have ghosted AT ALL, let alone been 'redeemed' in the first place.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 19, 2012
  13. Sistros Force Ghost

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    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    I'm not getting Arawns memes..

    other than that great convo
  14. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    star 7
    Oh, there are a lot of people upset about the Tusken massacre, it's just that they're all OOU.
  15. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

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    Well, I'm not one of them. The only reason I'm upset is because of the PTSD Anakin got as a result and the implications it had for his future decisions.
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  16. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

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  17. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    I quoted this so I could "like" it again. AMEN to all your recent posts, especially this one.

    And yeah, some segments of the fandom are a hell of a lot more bent out of shape over the Tusken slaughter than anyone in-universe, and I think that would apply to Obi-Wan if he had known about it. And let's not forget that Yoda did know, as he saw it in the vision.

    As far as Dooku, that scene was very painful to watch and was actually more painful to contemplate than the Tusken slaughter was, as Dooku had not just finished torturing Anakin's mother slowly to death, however, as you said, truly evil people don't question their actions, and as I saw it, Anakin did not want to kill Dooku--he and Dooku both were giving Palpatine the "this is a very sick joke, right?" look. But, I do see it as the GFFA equivalent of a national leader ordering a special ops soldier to take down a terrorist who had murdered thousands of people.

    As far as "would the slaughter be held up as an 'example' to follow?", no, probably not, but if we avoid allowing people to be labeled as "good" simply because they have presented some behaviors that weren't "examples to follow," hell, we're all doomed.
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  18. thesevegetables Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 11, 2012
    star 4
    Doomed, doomed. We're doomed.
  19. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

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    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Some folks criticized Padme for falling for a murderer without realizing that maybe that's not the way she saw him. She saw a suffering soul who'd just lost his mother in a most brutal way and wanted to console (basically taking on a motherly role).

    Honestly, the way some people react, it's as if he's already killing younglings in the cold blood.

    Did he actually see it or just felt Anakin suffering? I wonder why he didn't have a counseling session with him.

    Well, the whole Jedi Order seems to be too subservient to the politicians in the PT. Don't care about slavery and suffering in the Outer Rim, don't do anything about corruption in the Senate, don't question using the slave army or becoming generals for the said army. Is it really fair blaming a young Jedi for following orders from a Republic's leader and a friend when the Jedi leadership sets less than stellar example?
    Last edited by -NaTaLie-, Nov 19, 2012
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  20. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    And in our world, do we Americans as a group/our government we elect/our religions care/fight against slavery? There is slavery in this world. There's plenty of suffering, too - we throw a few telethons and some bucks at a "new cause" and call ourselves do-gooders (some, not all) - it's not fair to characterize the Jedi as above.

    There are consequences to "interference" where one is not wanted or has the political werewithal - and sometimes interference creates more problems in the end. See real world events.

    Should they care? Of course. Should they do all they can within boundaries? Yes.

    And some will say they should do all they can regardless of boundaries - and some will not.

    As far as in-universe reactions to Anakin - on Tatooine they probably held a party. Perhaps Yoda knew, perhaps just knew of Anakin's "suffering." I doubt others IU knew, so of course they didn't react with glee or horror or anything in between. Same with Dooku.
  21. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I think he just felt Anakin's emotions, and didn't know exactly what he was doing. A point is made of this in the Star Wars Republic comics, when it's made clear that if the Order had found out, Anakin would have been expelled, and a Jedi who does find out advises him to tell or guilt will eventually consume him. While making it clear he's not going to tattle.
  22. MandalorianWrath Jedi Master

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    Feb 17, 2005
    star 1
    That's another semantics problem actually. I don't mean "loss of connection" as in "loss of ability to draw on it, use it, etc." I mean that as far as the Force is concerned, Sith are off the map.

    Jedi and the Force have a privileged, fusional connection, in that they feed of each other (that's not a fact, just another personal opinion, but the Force remains a rather vague subject when taking into account the films only).

    So yeah, when I say "Anakin lost his connection to the Force in ROTS", I only mean that this privileged connection, this symbiosis, is gone, broken, and can never be mended. The Force can't feel him anymore as part of this relationship. He's dead and gone.

    I want to take this opportunity to remind you that I too had no problem with Shaw in ROTJ before the prequels came out. I had found a way to make sense of his appearance by thinking he just looked the way Anakin looked before he had become Vader. It's the prequels that changed it all, because we now knew Anakin didn't look anything like that before he became Vader. So why the hair? Why the absence of scars?

    I would never have petitioned for Lucas to take Shaw out of the film anyway, I could have lived with him and told myself "Well, how could Lucas have known at the time?".

    It's not a question of what's universally logical. Like I said, Force Ghosts are not logical, so there's no point going this way. But we can definitely argue how logical each of these Force Ghosts is in relation to the others. And Shaw is -pardon me- a stain thrown onto the scene. Obi-Wan and Yoda both look exactly how they did at the second they passed away (I would argue that Obi-Wan was never cut in two as he disappeared at the precise moment Vader's blade came into contact with his arm, his body was never mangled). Why would Shaw have hair? Why would his scars have disappeared, when he had them for twenty years? You can say that Force Ghosts are healed of any wounds they may have sustained during their lives (even though that's every bit as much of a stretch as what you say my theory is, I mean, what's wrong with scars?), but why the haircut then? Is being bald also considered as a wound? If it is, why give him such a haircut, that he never had, and not another?

    My point is that Shaw could have made sense had the prequels never came out. But they did, and we know Anakin never ever looked like this, so there's no way you can make sense of Shaw's appearance. Like I said the first time I intervened in this thread, two options were left to Lucas when he chose to do something about it : remove Shaw's hair and add in the scars, to show that Force Ghosts looked exactly how they did at the time of the Jedi's passing, or remove Shaw altogether, and go with Christensen, which would mean that the Force considers turning to the Dark Side as the end of a Jedi's life, and he chose to go with that option.

    We can argue forever about what a Force Ghost should look like, how Shaw could have made sense, but the main fact that has to be taken into account is this : He's not in the movie anymore. Christensen is Anakin's ghost, for better or for worse.

    You mentioned the Occam's Razor "law". Giving the simplest explanation for a given situation. Well, let's try it :

    Why is ROTS Christensen Anakin's ghost? Because his ghost was created at the time of ROTS.
    Why would he be created at the time of ROTS? Because he "ceased to be a Jedi to become Darth Vader".
    Why would turning to the Dark Side trigger the creation of a Force Ghost? Because he left behind his privileged connection to the Force to become a Sith Lord.
    Why would "leaving that connection behind" make him a Ghost? It makes him a Ghost for the Force (they are Force Ghosts, not Ghosts). The Force can't feel his presence anymore, it feels the presence of a new individual, Darth Vader, instead. Therefore it registers Anakin as dead, non-existent.
    Where was the ghost hidden all this time? The fact Anakin was still very much alive physically probably was the cause of some glitch that prevented the ghost from appearing, or got him stuck in a parallel, immaterial world (Limbo, Netherworld of the Force, whatever...), in stand-by mode, for as long as Anakin remained alive.

    If you can give me a simpler (but still in-universe) explanation for each of these questions, I'll be willing to admit that there is another viable explanation for this. I mean of course you could say "Hell with it, Force Ghosts just look the way they want", and that's perfectly fine, Anakin could have chosen to look like he did before all Hell broke loose in his life. But isn't that a stretch as well? And why would he not choose to appear as he did in AOTC, before his mother was taken from him? Why would he not choose to appear as he did in TPM, before the Jedi took him away from his mother, triggering a series of events that culminated in the loss of the two people he loved the most in the universe?

    The only really logical explanation is : his ghost was created during ROTS. Why? I'd very much like to see how you explain it.
    Last edited by MandalorianWrath, Nov 20, 2012
  23. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    [
    What Yoda describes could be like a glass of water being poured into a vast ocean. The glass contains a persons essence or conciousness but when that glass is poured into the ocean, after a while the indiviudal bits have disperesed into the ocean that is the Force.
    How long this takes or what you must do to prevent it is irrelevant. What matters is that your theory is not supported by anything in the films and as long as it does not contradict anything said in the films, no matter how minor, it is possible. But Yodas words do contradict your reasoning.
    Qui-Gon had learned something in life and he used that knowledge in death to escape oblivion and retain his conciousness. He then taught Obi-Wan adn Yoda this, this is why they could do the same and could also explain why their bodies vanished upon death. With Vader it is not clear, Obi-Wan and Yoda doing it is talked about in out of the movie sources.


    Obi-wan could talk to and be seen by Yoda and Luke, he could still down on a log. He can controll his apperance, either just voice, only torso and head or full body. He can also decide on wheter his hood is up or down. Seems he can interact a fair bit.

    Yoda said that Qui-Gon has learned the path to immortality. If all jedi gets eternal Force ghosts then his statement makes no sense. Living forever in the world of Force ghosts IS still immortality.
    So that again speaks against your theory and Yoda said this AFTER he had talked with Qui-Gon.

    Is Yoda only talking about Jedi or about all living things?


    See above, he said that Qui-Gon had LEARNED the path to immortality. If all Jedi gets immortal Force Ghosts just because they are Jedi then there is nothing to learn.

    The contradiction is that those that die don't retain their conciousness which Force ghost do retain.




    And Obi-wan should be cut in half.


    Oh he does make sense.
    Obi-Wan "lived" on as a Force ghost, looking like he did when he died and he had no wound.
    Yoda also looked like he died but since we don't hear him speak we don't know if he still coughs a lot but I would think not.
    Shaw, as the Force ghost, looks the age Vader/Anakin was when he died but he had no wounds.
    About the only change is that Shaw is wearing different clothes. But then again Obi-wan left his cloak when he died but the rest of his clothes vanished as well.

    The important bit is wheter or not "spirit" Anakin had anything influence over what Vader/Anakin did.
    From what you say it sounds like "Force ghost" Anakin only can observe and not actually do anything.
    This totally destroys his redemption because then it is not Anakin that redeems himself, it is something else. This also makes your other point of how Anakin must die redeemed for the Force ghost to be free rather odd. If the Force ghost had nothing at all to do with what Vader/Anakin did to redeem himself and come back into the light then they bit of dying redeemed is irrelevant.
    By this reasoning Force ghost Dooku should have been freed in RotS because he had no say in what the Dooku body did and the fact that Dookus body died unredeemed should not matter.

    Also, this sounds like you want to absolve Anakin of all the evil that Vader did. If "Anakin" that is his "soul" or "Force ghost" has been cut off from Vader since RotS then he can't be blamed for any of the things Vader did.

    This also begs the question how Luke could sense any good inside Vader.

    So Vader/Anakin would have lived on but without a soul?

    Shaw doesn't look much like Hayden, not does he sound much like Hayden. And his wounds are not that severe. He is bald and pale and has a few scars but his face is still recognizable.
    If continuity was important then change both scenes. Afterall, Lucas had no problem with getting rid of Clive Revil and Jason Wingreen all together.


    Obi-Wan has lied to Luke, he lied about his father being dead, he lied about what happened to him, he lied about his father wanting to have his lightsaber etc. You can not claim that Obi-Wan never lies, he does.
    Obi-Wan wanted Luke to kill Vader, he never thought that Vader could be redeemed. Luke knew better because he could sense the good inside Vader when Obi-Wan could not.
    This tells me that Luke, in some ways, had a better understanding than Obi-Wan did.


    You are adding a lot of stuff never even hinted at in the films. You use a very Western concept of the afterlife, heaven/hell/purgatory etc. When Lucas used many Eastern influences in the films, esp with the Jedi.
    Second, if only Jedi go to heaven then what about the good people that fight evil and do good things but aren't Jedi. They can't get into paradise just because they never got picked to be Jedi.
    They could have lived very good lives and done many good things but they get no reward in the afterlife.
    Third, the afterlife, as described by Yoda, is the same for all people. You die and then your conciousness fades away as you merge with the Force. Good people, bad people, indifferent people, it is all the same.


    This also doesn't match with the films. The Force is BOTH the Light and Dark Side.
    Vader could draw upon both sides and the Dark Side of the Force was certainly aware of him.
    Which means the whole Force would be as well.

    The Force exists in ALL living creatures, unless Vader is actually dead, the Force is still inside him and the Force would know that he still exists. Also, the midis, who is the sort of middleman with the Force, Vader still has lots of them and they connect him with the Force. So the symbiosis still exists.



    The Matrix idea of "residual self-image" could answer all of this.
    Obi-Wan looks the same because that is how he saw himself when he died, same with Yoda. Anakin could never really see himself after he got put into the suit. So when he died, the image he still had of his face would be his RotS self.

    Or, this is how Yoda and Obi-Wan saw Anakin, if we go with the idea that they are the ones who pulled him out of the Force-netherworld then this is how they remember him.

    Either one is far simpler than your, sorry to say, very convoluted theory that living people get Force ghost that are somewhere else, Vader was "dead" to the Force despite still being alive and able to use it and only jedi go to heaven, all the rest are screwed etc.

    In closing, I prefer the Shaw image because that shows the full character Arc or Journey of Anakin Skywalker. The good man that became evil but managed to find his way back into the light again.
    The person that has been to hell and back again. Having Hayden there only shows the first part

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
    Last edited by Samuel Vimes, Nov 20, 2012
  24. MandalorianWrath Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2005
    star 1
    Here's why this theory doesn't work : If Qui-Gon "learned something in life", just like Yoda and Obi-Wan did (since he taught them when they were alive), he should have disappeared all the same when Maul cut him down. That did not happen. His body fell lifeless to the floor, and was burnt on a funeral pyre. Qui-Gon only learned the technique in death. Therefore, he needed his conscience in death.

    I never even hinted at ghosts not being able to interact with anything. It's what my whole theory is based upon : The trick Qui-Gon learned and passed down to Obi-Wan and Yoda is how to interact with things while dead.

    Matter of point of view I guess. Immortality to me refers to staying alive in life, and among the living, not in the afterlife (which by definition is "after the life", therefore in death, which in turn brings the notion of "mortality" which is the opposite concept of "immortality"). A regular ghost in our very human lore is not immortal. It's dead. It can't do anything physically. It seems Force Ghosts can.

    About every single living thing. But only Jedi get to survive as luminous beings. The rest we don't know, but I am content with your theory that they are just swallowed by the Force.

    Because they were Jedi?


    Yes, well, like I said... This is endless.

    Still doesn't explain the hair growth to me. Nor why he would have this particular haircut.

    Since Dooku never turned away from the Dark Side, his Jedi self has been silenced forever by his Sith self, and will remain in the Netherworld of the Force forever.

    Indeed. What Vader did, the Jedi that Anakin had been had no part in it. But the redemption is just as powerful, because it is that of a man. A man who failed at being a Jedi, and who managed to come back from the Dark Side. I don't see how I annihilate or nullify the redemption itself. Anakin the human being is redeemed.

    He sensed his father was still somewhere in there. Not the Jedi Anakin used to be.

    Indeed. He gave away his soul by pledging himself to the Sith. There's no undoing that. The best he could do was free his soul from the clutches of the Abyss it was trapped into. But he could not have become one with it again.

    Again, like many actors who still play the same part in movies. That's just movies.

    Right.

    I didn't refer once to the "your father wanted you to have his lightsaber bit". I'm just saying that when he says Vader killed Anakin, that is not a lie to me.

    About humanity, perhaps. Certainly not about the Force. You keep drawing parallels between Force Ghosts and just ghosts it seems. The Anakin at the end of ROTJ is not a "ghost", it's a Force Ghost, the image of the Jedi who had been dead for twenty years.

    I'm not adding anything, because I was only saying "what if...?" Also, Hell / Purgatory and Heaven are not specifically Western, and can be found in many other cultures, even Eastern ones.

    They are of no concern to us. We are debating about what happens to Jedi when they die. I'm not opposed to the idea that everyone joins the Jedi within the Force when they die. But only a Jedi gets to retain his individuality.

    I never said that.

    I have no idea what Yoda's quote you keep referring to, because I sure missed the bit where he described people's consciousness fading away in death. The onyl thing that comes close is his "Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force". That's not saying much. Especially when Yoda hasn't been enlightened by Qui-Gon's teachings at this point. So he knows nothing of death.

    Here's a very famous one : If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.

    "Forever".

    Jedi Anakin is dead forever.


    Yes. It is, as you say, aware of "Vader". Not "Anakin". They have different signatures.

    Physically. Spiritually though, the connection between Jedi and the Force, which is symbiosis (they grow out of each other) is missing when you're dealing with Sith, who only consider the Force as a means. They don't give it anything, they only take. In return, the Force doesn't give them anything. So no Force Ghost.

    So Anakin "chose" his Ghost face? How is that any less of a stretch than my theory?

    And they shaped his ghost to their will? And that's a "simpler explanation"?

    My theory could not be any simpler. Here's what it says : Christensen is Anakin's ghost because this ghost was created during ROTS. No amount of "Force Ghost can choose their appearances" or "Obi-Wan and Yoda gave him a nice haircut because they wouldn't have him bald" can beat that.

    Duly noted. I agree with the last sentence. But Anakin never became the Jedi he had once been when he returned. The good man returned, yes. his Jedi self was still dead. So as you can see, the character arc in my theory is just the same. The good man came back.

    Finally, here's what I hope is the ultimate argument to end this debate once and for all : You keep defending the idea of Shaw being in the film. Well, Shaw no longer is the ghost. therefore, any theory that requires him to be the ghost is faulty. Lucas had the choice, and he chose to take him out of the equation.That doesn't mean of course that my whole theory is right. But its basis is factual ("Christensen is the ghost"), while your theory is entirely based on something that does not exist anymore, something virtual, something that's fantasized.

    But any theory worth considering would start with "ROTS Christensen is the ghost because..." and not "Shaw should be the ghost because..."

    My theory is that "ROTS Christensen is the ghost" because that ghost exists since ROTS. Occam's Razor. Let's elaborate from that.
    Last edited by MandalorianWrath, Nov 20, 2012
  25. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    That doesn't really work because it fails to explain why all the other dead Jedi didn't simply learn after death. It is possible that Qui-Gon doesn't disappear or appear as a ghost because he only achieved "level 1" of the technique while Obi-Wan and Yoda attained a higher level of mastery in it.
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