CT That Old Man Anakin

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by WhinyLuke, Sep 22, 2012.

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  1. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Does becoming One with The Force mean that you lose your identity, regardless if it's the LightSide or the DarkSide of the Force???? Does becoming one with the Force meaning losing your identity or keeping your identity after your death???

    Oneness cannot be achieved with the DarkSide of the Force, I have no idea where you're are getting your yo info information on this from!!!!
  2. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    You have "no idea", yet the source is cited right in the quoted part of your post. Right.
  3. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    There are no quotes or ciations........
  4. Yunners Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 2
    In the rough draft… Ben explains that… if "Vader becomes one with the dark side of the Force, he will lose all identity. If he turns to the good side, he will pass through the Netherworld" and in the revised rough draft, Yoda "will rescue him before he becomes one with the Force."

    --Laurent Bouzereau, Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays

    --Laurent Bouzereau, Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays


    --Laurent Bouzereau, Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays

    I'm pretty sure there's one in there somewhere.
    Last edited by Yunners, Nov 24, 2012
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  5. MandalorianWrath Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2005
    star 1
    @Samuel Vimes :

    Your last post has convinced me that the theory I had come up with was flawed.

    Unfortunately then, it is probably impossible to identify a working pattern in how the ghosts work and why they look the way they look, other than "Well, why not?"

    Thanks for the discussion, which I have enjoyed very much.
    Last edited by MandalorianWrath, Nov 26, 2012
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  6. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    You are most welcome and I have enjoyed it as well.
    Stimulating discussion is fun and gives the brain a little work out.

    As for Force Ghosts, possibly the least complicated theory is residual self-image. How we look is a part of our self-image. We know what we look like without having to look in a mirror all the time. And if our apperance has changed then it can cause quite a shock when we do look in the mirror.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
    Son of a Bith and TOSCHESTATION like this.
  7. Yunners Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 2
    Well said, Your Grace.
  8. Jarren_Lee-Saber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2008
    star 4
    to make things even BETTER - do this:
  9. Blur Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 1999
    star 4
    Logically, it makes sense to see a young longer-haired Hayden as the Anakin force ghost, because this is what he looked like prior to being seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. However, the addition has problems: First of all, the younger Anakin looks out of place next to the old Obi-wan and Yoda. Plus, the Hayden ghost isn't even looking in Luke's direction, like Yoda & Obi-wan are! .

    Conversely, from an Emotional stand-point, I strongly prefer the old man Sebastian Shaw Anakin - this is what the old Anakin looked like when he was one with the Force and at peace, after Luke had saved him. Plus, it coincided with the old man Luke saw after he took off Darth's helmet. The scene when the three of them are standing there looking at Luke with pride & approval is one of the best sequences of the OT, and the perfect ending to the Saga.
    Force Smuggler and TOSCHESTATION like this.
  10. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    On the contrary, I'd say that the young Anakin logically doesn't make more sense than the old Anakin (although talking about the logic of a ghost is not logical), but emotionally it works much better (if you watch the whole saga in order, of course).
  11. Alessandro Sanfilippo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2013
    star 1
  12. Yondo Kuromu Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2013
    star 1
    That's because George Lucas's explanation doesn't make any sense. He said that the last time Anakin was good, it was like 20 years ago Hayden Christensen Anakin Skywalker, but others argue that the last time he was good, he was the Sebastian Shaw Anakin Skywalker who threw the Emperor off the Death Star. That was the point on removing Darth Vader's mask to reveal his face and show it again when he appears as the Force Ghost. Otherwise, removing the mask or not wouldn't make any difference.
    The reason why he has his hair restored, scares gone and limbs back could be because that when some part of the light side being is gone, it will be rejoiced into the Force. Thus, this is how he got his hair and other parts of the tissue lost back when he returns as a Force ghost.
    To be honest, I didn't like Yub Nub, I liked the Special Editions music, didn't mind them adding certain scenes of Coruscant, but wished they never added "Weesa FREEEE" in Naboo.
  13. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    But Shaw's Anakin had been evil throughout his career as Darth Vader before he decided to toss the Emperor down the reactor core and get electrocuted in the process. Plus, he hasn't seen his own face ever since he put on the Vader mask so it makes logical sense why Anakin would see himself looking like Hayden when his ghost appears at the end of ROTJ.
    Darth Raiden likes this.
  14. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    It has a logic to it but depends on Force Ghosts working like residual self-image in the Matrix, and they may or may not. Also, we don't even know if Vader saw his own face. For all we know there are mirrors or scanning equipment in his private pod chamber thing.
  15. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    For some people, Haydakin is so repulsive that no amount of logic can excuse his appearance. That's really all it is and there's nothing wrong with it.
  16. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4

    Even if Vader saw his own face, he would be horrified beyond belief that he now looks like one of Pinhead's minions from "Hellraiser". It would explain why Vader never took his mask off until his death scene in ROTJ.
  17. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    Do we know that for sure? Is there a place within canon that states that Vader never removed his mask - even for a short period of time?
  18. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    In the RoTJ novel, speaking of Vader's face, it said "It was a face that had not seen the sunlight in 20 years".

    This allows for the occasional removal of the mask, on-planet rather than in-chamber, in the first year or two after RoTS. This happens in Darth Vader & the Lost Command.

    We do see Vader without his mask in ESB (or at least, we see the top of his head) - but that's not in a sunlit environment.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Oct 22, 2013
  19. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    I think your quote is telling... we could "interpret" that as - he hasn't had his mask off in 20 years... however taken literally it could suggest that within his private chambers - or in a specialized environmentally controlled setting - he could survive for short periods without the mask.
    And in ESB, I thought we only saw Vader's helmet off, not the entire mask...
  20. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    The helmet, when taken off, exposes the face in RoTJ - my guess was that it was that same component being lowered onto Vader's head in ESB.

    Or at the end of RoTS.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Oct 22, 2013
  21. TX-20 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2013
    star 3
    I prefer "Old Man" Anakin simply because it is that Anakin that returns to the light.
    Last edited by TX-20, Oct 22, 2013
  22. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    If you look closely in ESB - you can see the top of the mask that covers his forehead and the front of his skull before the "helmet" is lowered into place.... I'll have to rewatch and slow down - but my impression has always been that only the helmet was removed in that scene and not the full mask...
  23. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    Trust George to take a bad scene and make it even worse .
  24. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    LOL.... tinkerer & putterer.... always can make it just a bit worse than before....
  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    Movieverse only, Qui-gon had lived a different life from the other Jedi. During the last years of his life, he had dedicated himself to the Force in such a way that when he died, he was able to transcend death. The other Jedi couldn't do it, because they were still following the path of training from a thousand years earlier. He was able to hold onto his mind, but he couldn't do more and had not been certain that his beliefs could work.

    Expanded universe, Qui-gon had heard the voice of a fallen Jedi that he was close to, a few years earlier. This lead him to wonder about how contact could be made from the netherrealm of the Force and thus began seeking out the knowledge of such abilities. In doing so, he began to try and practice retaining his identity, but had yet to know if he could achieve it, when the Battle of Naboo rolled around.

    Yes, but in showing Anakin's younger self versus his older self, there's pivotal difference that is being made. The older self is the result of not only physical aging, but of the dark side corrupting what was left of his body. By taking it back to his younger self, it is without the corruption of the dark side. On top of being physically whole without any of his scars and all limbs present. It would probably be the same way with Dooku, if he had turned back before dying and was helped into retaining his physical form, he would probably look like he did circa TPM and not AOTC, TCW and ROTS.
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