CT That Old Man Anakin

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by WhinyLuke, Sep 22, 2012.

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  1. TX-20 Force Ghost

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    Jun 21, 2013
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    He was not at his most pure considering the way he looked in ROTS was after the whole slaughtering of sand people incident.
  2. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

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    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    I humbly disagree... My father died several years ago... the ghost I see in my dreams is different than the ghost that appears to my mother. Which is probably different than the way he sees himself if he looks in a mirror. I think that's exactly what happens as a corporeal being observe a Force (or any other) ghost.

    Let's suppose your notion is correct. Who determines when that person was "at their best"? If it were me, I might say 22. If I ask my wife, she might say 32. If I ask my mother, she might say 2. [face_laugh] So who makes that determination? Then let's return to my question above, why are we to believe that this form is static and set forevermore??? Should the appearance of the apparition not depend on the circumstances with the viewer? In Luke's case, how would he have recognized Anakin in his 20's since he's never seen him as that? In my case, how would I know if it was my father if he deemed his "best" to be when he was 21? Would I recognize him?

    I respect your opinion, I just can agree with it due to the flaws in the argument.
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  3. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

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    Oct 22, 2013
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    Well said @TX-20!!
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  4. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    TPM Anakin FTW!
    JK.
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  5. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    His ability to sense Anakin didn't go away, but it was not SHOWN during the end scene. His ability to SEE Anakin was what was SHOWN. No need to invent background for a scene to support your ghost arguement.

    Anakin, as young Anakin, doesn't appear as he did prior to his turn to the darkside for 2 reasons.

    1.) following your logic, he should appear minus a right arm since he was missing it prior to his turn and RotS looking Anakin never had both arms. Intact RotS Anakin never physically existed.

    2.) He never physically wore those robes.

    So, what you have with young Anakin is exactly what you are railing against with old Anakin. Except Luke actually saw old Anakin and not young Anakin when he removed the helmet.
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  6. T-R- Chosen One

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    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    So Yoda was at his best when he died of old age, cripled with a cane? Obi-Wan was at his best as an old man?
  7. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    Very good counterpoint... and another observation that would support my theory on ghosts' appearance being dependent on the observer...
  8. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Kind of along with what you're saying is this. Since Luke is the only person to ever actually SEE a Force Ghost, shouldn't they be an idealized version according to how Luke knows them?

    This is only if you want the appearance dependent on the observer.

    Personally, how they appear when they ghost is how I think they should appear (and how it was until young Anakin was added).
  9. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    Exactly... think of it in this context...
    "When Luke thinks of ObiWan, Yoda, or his father, how does HE envision them??" Answering that question will lead you to the correct answer in my opinion of how the Force Ghosts should have been portrayed in ROTJ.
  10. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    In the novel of RotJ, he didn't recognize the old Anakin, only thought "is that his dad?" so appear doesn't matter.
  11. T-R- Chosen One

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    Aug 13, 2003
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    I'll have to check it when I get home. I didn't think the ghosts, at least Anakin's, appeared in the novel at all. Weren't they like images dancing in the fire or something?

    Besides, it doesn't matter what the novels say (such as Ben and Owen being brothers, Leia was hidden in a trunk by her real mom, and Anakin wishing he had met Yoda) anyway because when the novels and what was on screen don't match up, onscreen takes precedence.
    Last edited by T-R-, Nov 4, 2013
  12. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    ^^^^This.

    Except that nothing ON-SCREEN - in the OT/ROTJ at least - contradicts those elements from the novelization*.

    *elements, which btw, weren't things merely made-up by the novel author (except maybe the 'trunk' thing); they were actually 'canon' at the time the movie and novel were first released. The Ben and Owen thing actually came from the full, un-cut dialogue from the final shooting script (a script which was the result of both Kasdan and Lucas re-writes).

    As for Anakin 'wishing' he had met Yoda....from what I gather from the new Making of ROTJ Rinzler book, Anakin and Yoda had supposedly never encountered each other - ???, in-person at least (Force visions not withstanding).
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 4, 2013
  13. T-R- Chosen One

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    Aug 13, 2003
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    True, but in this case what I meant/was talking about was the dialogue. The onscreen dialogue and the novel dialogue regarding Ben/Owen and Anakin/Yoda are different/not there in the movie. Since the dialogue is different, the dialogue from the movie takes precedence.
  14. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    When does Anakin "wish he had met Yoda"? Can't recall where in RoTJ that was. If you could show a few lines of the text with that line in, that would be helpful.
  15. T-R- Chosen One

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    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    I will when I get home from work.

    I'm pretty sure it's when he was being unmasked. Something to the effect of he wished that he had met Yoda to thank him for training Luke.
  16. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    The movie never said Luke even recognize the old Anakin, who without the horrible burned injuries.
  17. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
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    It didn't need to say Luke recognized Anakin because it SHOWED that Luke recognized Anakin through Hamill's performance.

    Watch the scene. Watch Luke. Luke shows acknowledgement and relief.

    All conveyed by Mark without saying a word. Acting at its finest.
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  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Luke would have to be a complete dumbass to not conclude that was his father.

    Qui-gon wasn't skilled enough to take his body with him when he became one with the Force. Yoda and Obi-wan did because they spent twenty years preparing for that. With Anakin, they helped him. The emotional and mental state of being selfless and noble is what helps it along. The Sith cannot reach that state of being to even begin to attempt it. As Qui-gon said, it is something that can only be achieved for oneself.

    As to why it would stop aging, it is because a physical toll is taken on the body, but not the soul. In many beliefs, the soul is part of who you are and when you lose it, you aren't even considered human anymore. If you are able to regain your soul, then you are human. Your soul is who you are. Anakin, in a metaphorical sense loses his soul because he becomes evil. He regains that bit of humanity when he becomes good again and it is purified from the dark side. Because the Jedi walk the righteous path, they have an old soul when they become one with the Force.

    Who cares?

    To the Jedi and Sith, that is death. Anakin stops being Anakin and starts being Vader. That's where the point of view comes in. Obi-wan has a hard time with that which is why he keeps referring to him as Anakin, even knowing that he is now Vader. By the time they meet again, he only refers to him as Vader during their duel. Luke is the only one to truly see past Vader and see Anakin, which is why he starts calling him father to his face on Endor.

    He doesn't have a choice in the matter.

    It isn't about most pure. Anakin was still a good man right up to the moment he attacked Mace. After that, it was all down hill.
  19. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Shaw's face is an idealization. It's the face of who he would have been had he never turned. But it never existed. And it's not a face Anakin can claim to own -- it's a face he never presented to the world. For me, it's important that Anakin retain an image of himself that represented both good and evil because that's who he is. Like I said earlier, I prefer the Hayden ghost precisely because this is the only version of Anakin that we have seen do great good and great evil. We never see Shaw's face as Anakin risks his life to save another's, nor do we see his face as he kills innocents. You may disagree, but to me it's very important that this duality be shown with Anakin.

    Sorry, but it's a pet peeve of mine when parents try to take credit for their children's achievements even when they've contributed nothing. Anakin had sex with Luke's mom -- that's basically the extent to which he contributed to Luke's growth as a person. Maybe you don't mind, but I do -- I've seen enough deadbeat parents try to reinsert themselves into their successful children's lives saying they are "proud" of them. Now, of course, Anakin did turn back, but I feel he should express love and gratitude rather than pride. Just a personal preference.

    Yes -- it's about Luke seeing his father whole and healed. Which works as well with the Hayden ghost as it does Shaw's ghost since Luke never became attached to his father's face given that the man was either hidden behind a mask or horridly disfigured.

    Likewise, I don't see why you have to invent paragraphs of material to try to disprove the Hayden ghost, but to each their own.
  20. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    It's not so much a question of the audience but of Luke having a particular attachment to Shaw's face. I don't really see why he would -- he saw the man's face once and it was scarred, hairless, disfigured. It certainly didn't look healthy and whole. So, to me, it doesn't seem to matter which ghost you show from Luke's perspective, especially since Luke has always been able to associate a presence with his father.

    The Fire Lord is an interesting case in that it's meant to reinforce the audience's perspective as Zuko's. Zuko has not seen his father for three years and in that time, his father has become a larger than life fixture in his world. Him being faceless is a manifestation of that fact and it's extremely significant that the audience sees Ozai's face for the first time as Zuko looks up at him. It is at this point that Zuko finally comes to see his father again as a man, rather than an all-powerful shadow over his life. But the shadow is most definitely meant to dissociate Ozai from his humanity -- to make him seem untouchable and all-powerful to the audience so we understand how Zuko feels about his father. It's extremely clever but the masking of the face is done for a very specific purpose. Ozai isn't supposed to have a face for a very good reason -- and seeing his face is what makes us realize that he's just another human.

    Amon manufactures this to a degree as well.

    The dehumanization of the clone troopers is achieved through a similar means. You'll notice that throughout ROTS, when they talk to the Jedi, they are unhelmeted. This is especially noticeable in the opening scene. As soon as Cody talks to Palpatine, though, he puts his helmet back on, sublimating his identity. We may have already seen their faces, but by wearing a helmet, the clone troopers once again can be dehumanized and they are shown as the foot soldiers of the new Empire.

    Masks are extremely significant. As are actions. And the only time we see Shaw's face is as he's dying and as a Force ghost, which, in my opinion, does not compare in the slightest to the impact Hayden has. At least for me.

    Yep, I misunderstood. Sorry about that.

    Ehh…I expounded on this in the post above so I won't get into the gory details but I will say that I've never understood nationalism all that much. So you were born in a particular country. So what? You didn't do anything -- there's nothing to feel pride about.

    However, gratitude is a sentiment I agree with.

    Now that is a question for George Lucas. I can only provide reasons that I like Hayden better but, obviously, they won't answer your question.

    Your point about Shaw is a good one, but it doesn't tip the scale for me because, as I noted earlier, I prefer the Hayden ghost because it is more difficult to dissociate his face from Anakin's actions (both good and bad). But you have outlined a big reason that I still like the Shaw ghost as well, regardless.

    I disagree pretty strongly on that. Shaw looked rather ill and broken under the mask. As a ghost, he looks healthy and whole. That makes a huge difference. If you've ever seen someone go through a serious illness, they often come out of it looking like a totally different person. And his looks are significantly altered as a Force ghost anyway.
  21. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Never existed? It existed the moment the mask came off. That's the face we saw clear as day.

    I'm sorry you can't see the difference between trying to take credit for Luke's achievements (something Anakin isn't doing) and being proud of Luke. It means even more since Anakin was such a bad example of a human being.

    Let's take Hayden and Shaw out of it. It's young vs. old. If you want to replace Shaw with Hayden, fine, but make him look the age he was when he died. Do not have him look younger than his son.

    I didn't invent anything, that was you my friend.
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  22. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    It was at the nmasking:

    "He wished, briefly, he'd met Yoda, to thank the old Jedi for the training he'd given Luke."

    and if anyone once to give credence to the novel:

    "Luke gazed on his father's face.

    It was the sad, benign face of an old man."

    and no ghosts, just faces in the flame of the bonfire.
  23. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Nope, Anakin died as a disfigured, scarred, pale, sick man. Shaw's healthy face, smiling with a full head of hair never existed. It would have had Anakin not turned, but you can't undo the past.

    On the contrary, the very fact that I differentiate between pride and gratitude is why I'm not fond of Anakin displaying pride. He hasn't earned it. Leia showing pride in Luke would be more appropriate.

    *Shrug* Doesn't bother me. If you prefer him older, that's your right. It is not of great importance to me.

    :p Pot meet kettle.
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  24. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    And yet...even Lucas supposedly* thought that ROTJ - as it was originally (with Shaw ghost) - was 'unclear' on this point. [face_thinking]

    *given statements he made around the time of the change, circa '04/'05


    Apparently darth sinister does not...


    Anakin "stops" being Anakin and "starts" being Vader by reasons of arbitrary "just so" story-telling diktat (meanwhile, one has the actual characterization of Anakin across the PT films telling a different story from the artificially dichotomous 'offical' Anakin-or-Vader view).The 'point of view' came in because Lucas apparently wanted to have his cake and eat it too - i.e. "Vader killed your father" vs. "Vader is your father".... he likes BOTH plot points equally. The out-of-universe reason, to me, is more compelling than the in-universe one.

    It's also curious how the above rationalization applies only to Anakin/Vader, and not to say, Count Dooku.


    See above. The "down hill" had already started by the beginning of AOTC.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 4, 2013
  25. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Who cares? If his ability to sense Anakin didn't go away, then he had the ability to sense Anakin at that point, so he can sense Anakin no matter what Anakin's ghost looks like.

    It's called "turning to the dark side". According to the OT that's a thing.

    The only different story being told here is people trying to dump the concept of a dark side turn from canon and replace it with fanon about "turning by increments". We're now throwing out core concepts of the OT, just because they're standing in the way?

    Mentioning Dooku in this context would only be meaningful if Dooku had returned to the light side, ghosted, and appeared in ghost form as the same age. Unfortunately, those things didn't happen.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Nov 4, 2013
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