CT That Old Man Anakin

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by WhinyLuke, Sep 22, 2012.

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  1. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    It is, because a Sith Lord like Darth Sidious cannot become a ghost because he cannot be selfless, having no thought of himself and cannot let go of the mortal world. If Luke had killed Vader, either in anger or in passiveness, Obi-wan and Yoda couldn't help Anakin to retain his identity. He had to let go of everything that he held on to as a Sith Lord and in doing so, he was able to do what only three other Jedi had been able to do. Retain his conscious self. If Han died at Bespin, he wouldn't be able to retain an identity because he has no knowledge of the Force like Luke. When Vader killed Nute, he couldn't for the same reasons, but also because he was a selfish individual.


    The standard of right is by which he choose to do it for himself, rather than what you or someone else would do. There is no wrong in this situation. As to getting paid, Shaw was already getting paid. Hayden's pay was probably only for ROTS.

    You can have the discussion, but in the end, it really doesn't matter why he did it.

    Shaw is the result of Anakin's poor choices when unmasked and all that came with it.

    I don't believe it is underestimation. Rather it serves as a symbolic gesture to take it back to that point, rather than have it as it had been with Shaw. Old Anakin is the physical shell of what he was in life. The younger version is in essence what he had been without taint. It is the true self that Luke spoke of, bogged down and caked in evil and sin. The Netherrealm of the Force is a passage of sorts that only accepts the true person with the sins washed clean.

    In TESB, Vader wants to use Luke to help him take out Palpatine and that is still true in ROTJ, though it is more subtle than in the former. Palpatine then wants to turn Luke in ROTJ, so that he can eliminate Vader and have Vader 2.0. This would become an issue by the end of the film. Luke is also a threat because as Palpatine says, Luke could destroy them which goes back to ROTS about eliminating all of the Jedi.

    That's because those changes were less visual effects and more story changes, which included some visual enhancements. That was mostly the case in the 97 SE's. He hadn't planned to change those films, but did so as he went along with changing ANH. The 04 changes were more about story continuity with TESB and ROTJ. The Blu-Ray changes were mostly audio and visual alterations.

    The same way he second guessed himself with "Close The Blast Doors!" in ANH, where he removed it back in the day and then put it back in with the SE's and the changes to Obi-wan's roar in ANH.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Nov 11, 2013
  2. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Shaw is the result of Anakin's one good choice and the redemption that came with it.

    Seriously? That version of Anakin was already tainted since it is after the Tusken Slaughter. His true self didn't cease to age. It was revealed at the end of his life, not when he was 20.

    Source for this? first off, nothing ever suggested this, secondly, all beings whether good or evil return to the "Netherrealm of the Force" and are lost forever. The Jedi's ghost ability prevents it from happening.
  3. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    What makes the Force Ghost Jedi different is not that they don't go to the netherworld- but that they can return from it:

    "One who has returned from the netherworld of the Force - your old master, Qui-Gon Jinn."
  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The taint of sin was represented in the physical scars when he was burned up and then was put into the suit. When "... he ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader." That's how Lucas put it and how it was represented in ROTS.



    Right, but it is in that return from the Netherrealm of the Force and retaining the identity in a physical form, that the true self emerges. The source goes back to the rough drafts of ROTJ, where Vader was burned up again in the lava and comes back from the Netherrealm as an undamaged Anakin Skywalker, into the physical world. This carried over into the version that was filmed in 82-83 and is taken one step further with the 04 changes.
  5. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    edit:

    I understand all of this. What I meant by asking that question about the rule of two, is: "In light of the Rule of Two, how does hiding the twins from evil guy #2 protect them from evil guy #1????".


    But he actually, objectively, did NOT 'cease to be' Anakin Skywalker (when he became Darth Vader). That was Obi-Wan's (and perhaps others') "certain point of view".


    None of this early 80's material said that he went back to the physical form of what he looked like (age-wise) before he had turned.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 11, 2013
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  6. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I like this take on "a certain point of view":

    http://irregularwebcomic.net/119.html
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  7. Merkual Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 4
    People have a tendency to like the first version of something they saw. I saw, I think, Shaw first, but I still believe that Hayden Christian made a better Force Ghost.
    -------------------------------------

    I wouldn't say that was true in this instance.

    It comes down to the fact of this IMO, IF you're going to change Shaw, then by sheer logic you should change Guiness too? (or is that blasphemy since he's a renowned actor and therefore untouchable to the lesser known Shaw?)

    Shaw represents redeemed Anakin, putting Hayden in there reminds me of "master Skywalker there are too many of them, what are we going to do?" I doubt that was the intention Lucas had in mind somehow
  8. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    Plus Shaw is looks old enough to be Luke's dad, whereas the Hayden ghost does not.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 11, 2013
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  9. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Sith can't become ghosts no, neither can evil people like Tarkin or good people like Han or Shmi.
    Mace, Plo-Koon, Kit Fisto didn't become ghosts either.
    That says clearly that ideology isn't the only thing that matters.


    So it is right just because he did it and there is no wrong way to do it? If there is no wrong then then it can't be right either. For something to be right, a wrong alternative must exist. Otherwise the term is meaningless.

    You didn't answer my question, is the Anakin, as played by Shaw, a good person when he dies, yes or no?

    I don't think so, Haydens Anakin was tainted by the dark side even before he fully turned.
    Haydens Anakin had not managed to overcome his own darkness. Shaw's Anakin did overcame his own demons and passed the test of the dark side. Shaw is the one purged from taint as he finally managed to let go of his hate and reject the dark side. Haydens Anakin never managed to do that.


    [/QUOTE]

    From what I understand it, the line "close the blast doors" was in some versions of ANH but not in others due to which audio was used. There were two stereo versions and one mono version and some of those versions had it, others did not. So it was apparently a question which mix was used.
    When a video version was first made, they used the version that lacked this line, that why it was lost.
    So, based on what I've read, it doesn't seem that this was a deliberate choice by Lucas but more of a slip up due to there being many different audio mixes.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
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  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    How can you still be confused? If Sidious was aware of them, Vader would be sent to kill them. Or convert them.

    True, but it isn't just a name. He ceased to be the type of person that he was as Anakin Skywalker and embraced the identity and ideals of what became Darth Vader. It's like Angel and Angelus in "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" and "Angel", where having a soul means that Angel is a good person and has the memories of his crimes as Angelus, but when he loses his soul, he is the opposite of that person. They're the same man, but they're also different.


    Yes, I know that. But the point was that going in and coming back out was a stark change. All that had been was physically gone now. Lucas just took it up another notch ten years ago by adding age to it.

    I never said it was the only thing that matters. I said it was a key aspect of it. The ideology is why it is possible to come back. I never said that the training wasn't important.

    No, it means that it comes down to a point of view. Your point is that it is wrong all together and only one way was right. My point is that it is right for what he chose to do. That doesn't mean that I think it was right or wrong all together.

    Anakin was good when he died, but not for what Lucas wanted him to be now, which was to represent his ghost as before his fall from grace. Not afterwards. Hence burnt Anakin is the shell containing the real Anakin beneath it.

    That depends on when you consider it taint and what the taint was.
  11. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    This little discussion came about because you claimed that when a person turns to the Dark side, their soul/sprit stops aging. I asked you what you based that one and you said that Sith don't become Force ghosts when they die. Due their ideology and not being selfless.
    My counter argument is that almost everyone in the SW galaxy don't become Force ghosts.
    Non-Force users can't do it, Jedi that lack the training/knowledge can't do it either.
    So it isn't JUST about ideology. You agree, good.
    So then the Siths lack of Force ghost is not proof or indication that their spirits/souls stop aging.

    No, my point was that putting Hayden in just one scene and not the other creates more problems than it solves, like breaking established logic. It also doesn't work if your goal is better continuity between PT and OT. Also my point that just doing a copy/paste job is cheap and lazy and not bothering to tell the actor what you are doing and not letting he/she do their job is never "right".

    If your point is that it was right for what Lucas wanted, then that is a meaningless statement to make.
    Then the only way for it to be "not right" is if Lucas tried to do it one way but couldn't.
    What you are saying is that Lucas could have replaced Force ghost Anakin with a carrot and it would have been just as "right" as long as that is what Lucas wanted.
    It would be like if Lucas wanted to replace Force ghost Obi-Wan with Ewan but he only did it for all the ESB scenes, but not the RotJ scenes. Now the ghost looks different in the two films and is just a mess from story and continuity stand point. But by your logic, if Lucas only wants to replace him in one film and not the other, then this is "right."

    I however, am looking beyond Lucas's wishes and tries to see if this works well with the other films and filmmaking in general.

    It is obvious that Lucas wanted just to change the ghost but not the unmasking scene since he changed just one of them. It is equally obvious that he wanted to show force ghost Anakin as young. Both are redundant statements to make. The question is, does it make sense within the confines of the six films?
    If Anakin is good again at the end, then Shaw DID play a "good" Anakin, one that was once again on the light side. So then that can not be used as an argument against Shaw as the ghost.
    Both Yoda and Obi-Wan look the age when they die, Hayden's Anakin does not. This is a break of established logic, unless you assume that Anakin really, literally died in RotS, which some do.

    [/QUOTE]

    Two reasons.
    1) With Luke, he had to pass the test of facing the Dark Side and overcoming it. In ESB he takes his weapons into the cave. That was a test of the dark side and he fails that test. In RotJ he is told that his final test is to face Vader and by so doing, his own dark side and the Dark side of the Force.
    He comes close but pulls himself back and passes the test and is now a Jedi.
    Anakin never managed to pass this test as a young man. He could not control his own anger and hate and he could not let go. Until RotJ, that is when Anakin finally is able to pass the test, and to let go of his anger and hate and be at peace, as a Jedi should be.

    2) In AotC Anakin looses control and gives into his hate and ager and commits mass murder.
    Sure there were external factors and he was under great emotional pressure. But there he gave into his hate and used the Dark side again and again. If not before, then here he became tainted.
    As Yoda said "Once you start down the Dark path, ..." Here he started that journey down that path.
    At the start of RotS he again gave into his anger and used the Dark side and even murdered a helpless Dooku. Sure he said that he should not have done that but he still did it. That made him even more tainted. Before the turn, Anakin is actually able to see that something is wrong with him. That he does things he knows he must not do and that he craves things he shouldn't. Even he can see and feel the taint that has been growing in him.
    In RotJ is the first time when he can overcome this taint and purge himself from it. His hate and ager are now gone and the Dark side with them.

    Thus the redeemed Anakin at the end of RotJ is a untainted Anakin, at least after TPM. And an Anakin that finally passed the test of the Dark side. So Luke and his father passed the same test at almost the same time. And because Luke was able to pass it, so too could his father.

    In closing, if you put Hayden in both scenes, with suitable make up, it would work fine and I wouldn't have any problems with it. As it is now however, it made better sense before this change.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
  12. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    You misunderstand me. I'm not saying that the Devil made him do it, or that he allowed the Devil to take over his body. It does get a bit tricky to get my point across, though, when I call the good part of Anakin "Anakin" and the bad part "Vader". That makes it sound as though Anakin is a good guy who, indeed, was possessed by Vader.
    Therefore, I'll just refer to the good and the bad in Anakin as "the good and the bad in Anakin" :)

    Now! Anakin has good qualities and he has bad qualities. His good qualities are the good part of him and the bad qualities are the bad part. Anakin is both of these parts.
    Greed is a bad trait that he carries with him already at a young age, but the good in him is his primary driving force, which is what keeps him under control. For years, the bad and the good are both with him, but the good outweighs the bad (except for that slip in AOTC)... until things go seriously downhill in ROTS. Then, the bad gains the upper hand. Upon learning that he has killed Padmé, Anakin finally breaks down and the good in him is utterly defeated.
    By the time Luke is handed to the Larses, the good in Anakin has been smothered and is no longer active. It lies dormant until it stirs awake in TESB. By acknowledging that he is Luke's father, he also acknowledges, deep down, that he is the man who loved Luke's mother, the man that he has purged from his being as a result of the trauma that Padmé's death brought him.
    That's when the good in him comes to life again. At first, it's just a tiny spark of light, but over time, it grows and when he meets Luke again in ROTJ, there's a serious conflict going on inside of him. At length, good triumphs and vanquishes the evil within Anakin. His greed is gone and he dies a good man.
    What we then see is a ghostly manifestation of the good in Anakin. It looks young because it was completely out of the picture for 22 years.

    I don't expect you to agree at all, but hopefully, you understand what I mean now.

    I think it's safe to say that it would be interesting, at least :)

    I totally buy Shaw as an aged post-Mustafar Hayden, so to me, that would be unnecessary.





    - With the blastshield down, I can't even see!
    - So love has blinded you?
    /LM
    Last edited by Lars_Muul, Nov 13, 2013
  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    If they turned back from the dark side and were helped by one who was a ghost, then that would be the proof.

    There was no established logic to break.

    That doesn't make sense. The fact is that the films were made in two different eras, with two different actors playing Anakin and Obi-wan. If Lucas had Obi-wan's ghost be younger, it would be no different. Just as it is no different having Zachary Quinto and Leonard Nimoy play Spock in the last two Trek films. Or having Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellan in the same X-Men film as James McAvoy and Michael Fassbender, both playing two different versions of the same characters.

    There's no job in standing there and smiling.

    Why?

    That's taking it to an absurd extreme. It is only right for Lucas to do a copy and paste job because it saved him money creating another set of robes and having Hayden stand there for that. This gets the job done and the amount spent is less than it would be the other way.

    Except that's different. Anakin's ghost was only in one film and made sense within that context to change it. Lucas would have no reason to change Obi-wan for one film and not another, which is why it didn't happen.

    Nothing is ruined with the OT and as to overall filmmaking, every director is different. Lucas himself is more of an editor director than a traditional director.

    Lucas did change Shaw's appearance by changing the color of his eyes and removing his eyebrows, to match how Hayden looked in ROTS, during the last couple of weeks of filming. So the unmasking was changed, just subtly. Having two actors in one film like that, playing different aspects of the same part is no different from any other Hollywood film and television show.

    As to the latter, it might be death. It might be stopped aging. It doesn't break the logic other than you were used to what came before and Lucas tweaked it now.

    Anakin committed a crime, but he was not evil. He is only truly tainted when he makes the conscious decision to turn evil and embrace the dark side.

    No, it doesn't. That is you arguing what you would prefer. It makes sense the same way it does across all of Hollywood and has for years, regardless of any ghost-redemption storyline.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Nov 13, 2013
  14. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Yes there was. Obi-Wan died as an older man and his ghost looked, talked and sounded exactly like when he was alive. He had no wound from Vader killing him, so ghosts are apparently healed of their wounds. Yoda looked the same, he never talks so we don't know if he sounds the same, but that is logical.
    In the old version, this was the same with Anakin, he ided as an older man and his ghost was of the same older man. His wound were also healed and the only difference was his clothes.


    Why was Ian put in ESB? Continuity. He had been the character in four of the five films the character appeared in, so having him in all of them makes sense from a continutiy stand point.
    People have argued that Shaw looks too old and used the actors age of 70+ as not matching the age Anakin has in RotJ with the PT in mind. So if that is the reason to remove Shaw then he should be removed from both scenes, not just one.
    Shaw played Anain when he died, same as Alec but while Alec also plays the ghost, Shaw for some reason does not. This breaks established logic.

    Really? I think most actors would not be pleased to hear you say that.
    Second, if you film someone without their knwoledge and then puts them in a film without their permission or paying them, they would have reason to sue you.



    Because there is no way for it not to be "right". For something to be right, a wrong alternative must exist. It would be more correct to say that it was "sufficient" for Lucas.
    If Lucas didn't change this, it would be "right" because Lucas didn't change it.
    If Lucas put Hayden in both scenes, then it would also be "right" because Lucas put Hayden in both scenes. See what I mean?

    In other words, cheap and lazy.

    Except it doesn't make sense as the toher two ghosts look the age when they die and Anakin does not for unknown reasons.


    Who talked about "ruined"? There has been an established logic of how Force Ghosts work, they are a continuation of the character in death. They die but continue on as spirits and look, sound and talk the same as when they were last alive.

    Even with the changes, Shaw doesn't look much like Hayden and they don't really talk very much alike either. And Shaw and Anakin are not playing different aspect of the same character, but different ages of the same character. Hayden was a young man Anakin, Shaw an older Anakin.
    And Anakin died as an older man and he was also a good man when he died. Thus, given the other ghosts, it makes total sense that Anakins ghost should be played by the same older actor.

    And you keep trying to kae this discussion personal, I have already told you, I have no problem with Ian being in ESB despite it being different from how I first saw it.


    He gave into his hate and used the force to kill and kill again. He used the Dark side of the Force.
    As Yoda said, he started down the dark path.


    [/QUOTE]

    Again you keep making this personal. I have given my reason for why one works and one doesn't. They are not based on what I first saw but based on the logic of the films, the story and characters.
    And about other films, yes different actors have played the same character at different ages.
    Have I argued against that? No. That Jake plays Anakin in TPM and Hayden in AotC and RotS is fine. The problem is that Shaws plays Anakin when he dies but not his ghost, and that is not how it worked with the other two ghosts.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
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  15. Odolwa Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2013
    star 3
    Young anakin/Hayden as the ghost makes sense for me

    Anakin was last good and "whole" when he was young, Then he got his legs cut off and burned and became evil contained in a suit. So when he redeemed himself and died, he reverted back to that last time he was Anakin and whole, hence hayden ghost. Thats the way i see it *shrug*
  16. Odolwa Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2013
    star 3
    one last thing, it wont let me edit my posts for some reason?

    Anyways, I dont mind shaw as anakin when he takes mask off, but to me he looks like some innocent old grandpa type person, If they did change it i would want to see more signs of evil/torment/sadness on his face.
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    We never see him get any wound in the first place. He seems to merge with the Force on the spot.
  18. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Yoda died and then his body vanished. Therefore it is logical that Obi-Wan died and then his body vanished.
    So what killed him? Vader's lightsaber. As Obi-Wan said "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can ever imagine."
    From the ANH script;
    They start for the Millennium Falcon. Ben sees the troops
    charging toward him and realizes that he is trapped. Vader
    takes advantage of Ben's momentary distraction and brings his
    mighty lightsaber down on the old man. Ben manages to deflect
    the blow and swiftly turns around.
    The old Jedi Knight looks over his shoulder at Luke, lifts
    his sword from Vader's then watches his opponent with a serene
    look on his face.
    Vader brings his sword down, cutting old Ben in half. Ben's
    cloak falls to the floor in two parts, but Ben is not in it.
    How it looks in the film is most likely due to technical difficulties and having a person get cut in half might have caused rating problems back then.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
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  19. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    To sum up my arguments re: the ghosts.

    1) The established logic of Obi-Wan and Yoda is that Force ghost look the same age as when they die. They talk and sound the same. They have all the memories and personality of when they were last alive. Their wounds and injuries are gone.

    2) Anakin, at the end of RotJ, died as a good man. He rejected the dark side, he let go of his hate and his attachments and stepped out into the light once again. This is something that young Anakin never managed to do. Anakin passed the test as an older man, not a young man.

    3) Anakin, as played by Hayden, had already done bad and even evil things before his turn. He commited mass murder, he murdered a defenseless Dooku. The venom of the Dark side was already running through him. He was tainted by evil, by the stain of the dark side. Older Anakin has purged himself from that, his soul/spirit is free from the taint and corruption of the dark side.

    So the arguments that Hayden was the last time Anakin was good does not work, Anakin was good at the end as well.
    Hayden's Anakin was not pure or untainted even before the turn. He has not yet passed the test or learned to let go of his anger, fear or his attachements.
    Likewise the argument that Shaw's Anakin never existed also does not work. Shaw did play a good Anakin at the end.
    So he did exist. His wounds are just gone. Also, by this logic, the ghost played by RotS Hayden is also someone that did not exist as RotS Hayden had already lost an arm. So two-armed Anakin last existed in AotC.

    So if Hayden is going to be there then it makes better sense that he is in both scenes, scarred in the unmasking scene, and then with older makeup in the ghost scene. It creates good continuity, you get to see the same actor again and he is allowed to act.
    You show that he has learned from his past misstakes, that he has passed the test, that he has learned to let go.
    This would work fine and I would have no problem with it.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
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  20. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Not only do we not see Ben cut in half, but in the film it's a sideways stroke, not a downward stroke.

    He doesn't have to be "pure or untainted". Just not on the dark side yet, or equivalently someone who can still be described as a good person like at the start of ROTS or the end of AOTC.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Nov 14, 2013
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  21. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    EXACTLY! =D=
    But, following your logic of a "whole" Anakin, the RotS Anakin WASN'T whole. He lost an arm as a padawan. Using your arguement, Anakin should look like his AotC's self since that was the last time he was "whole."

    Could he really be described as a good person in either AotC or RotS? He was an arrogant, selfish, egotistical murderer in both of those movies. In both of those movies, his younger self was already on the path to the darkside. The only adult version of Anakin that was not on the dark side and a good person is the one that sacrifices himself for his son.
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  22. Visivious Drakarn Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2013
    star 2
    Obi-Wan died, his body vanished, but his clothes remained.
    Yoda died, his body vanished, but his clothes vanished.
    Is there any valid explanation? [face_coffee]
  23. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Actually, only Obi-Wans cloak remained, all his other clothes vanished along with him.
    Yoda's blanket remained while the rest of his clothes went away.

    @Arawn_Fenn

    This was mostly directed at darth-sinister and he argued that Anakin only became tainted after the turn. So before that he was pure or untainted. I don't agree. Anakin had already gone down quite a way down the dark path. The turn was the final step, not the first one.
    So Hayden's Anakin had already done evil things, committed murder even mass-murder. He had not yet fully embraced the dark side no, but the venom of the dark side was already running through him.
    I would not consider Luke, in the moment in RotJ when the totally looses it and attacks Vader, as totally pure or untainted. He used the power of the dark side, it fueled his actions and made him powerful. But he did not go all the way, he stopped himself. He let go of his anger and hate and the venom of the dark side left him and he passed the test.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Right and now it is that he's younger because the aging from when he was evil is not represented now. Because he walked the path of darkness versus the others who didn't and thus they age normally and their ghosts represent that.


    Except you're still missing the point. Shaw represents the aged Anakin not only because he was twenty years older, but the dark side aged him as well. That is Lucas's justification for keeping Shaw as a living being and having Hayden as the ghost. Lucas established his reasons, you just don't agree with them.

    That's being childish and unprofessional if they did that. Shaw and Hayden were both professionals about it and were not angry at all, for not being told about it. Both were surprised, but neither took legal action over it.


    A wrong alternative does not have exist. Right means that there were two methods and Lucas chose one that he preferred.

    There are reasons. We've gone over it again and again.


    Right and Lucas took it one step further with Anakin.

    Neither does Guinness and McGregor, Nimoy and Quinto, Pine and Shatner, McAvoy and Stweart, Fassbender and McKellan and so on. That's a pretty poor excuse.

    Except as Lucas has said, he wanted it to be the Anakin before the fall that is represented. Simple as that.

    Yoda was also wrong. Anakin came back from the dark side.


    And as I say, he changed it because Anakin was evil and then became good again, but his inner self is only reflected from before his fall. The others didn't fall and thus they look as they did when they became one with the Force. It is that simple.

    And when Luke appears to Cade in "Legacy", he looked like he did in ROTJ. Not like he was during "Legacy Of The Jedi".
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Nov 14, 2013
  25. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    You still have not been able to prove this the dark side ages you bit. And the movies prove you wrong.
    Dooku used the dark side for over 10 years and he aged normally. Anakin looking older would have more to do with severe burns and being locked in a suit for over 20 years.

    Then it is not "right", it is what Lucas preferred.
    Also there were at least three methods. Not doing anything, change the ghost but make it look old, change the ghost and make it look young (Hayden or Jake), change both ghost and unmasking scene. Etc.

    And I have explained why they don't work for me.


    And Lucas can wish for Anakin to be seen as a carrot if he wants to, I look at this and try to see if it works within the logic of the story and film. You are using a appeal to authority fallacy, "Lucas did this so it makes sense." Sorry, I look at more than that.

    That Yoda might have been wrong about the dark path forever dominating your destiny doesn't mean that Anakin hadn't started down the dark path well before the turn in RotS. He had committed evil acts, used the dark side, given in to his hate and anger.
    And it did dominate his destiny. He stayed evil for many years and only turned back minutes before he died.


    [/QUOTE]

    Except that Anakin died as a good man. So he was good, turned evil and then became good again. Why should that be ignored? And Anakin was old when he became one with the Force, same as the others, so now you are arguing for Shaw, not Hayden.
    And why would the years you spent being evil matter if you die a good person?

    This argument is just going nowhere, perhaps best we drop this.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
    T-R- likes this.
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