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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

CT That Old Man Anakin

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by WhinyLuke, Sep 22, 2012.

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  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    It doesn't matter about Dooku, since he never becomes a ghost. So forget about that.

    Then we're just pissing up a rope, then.

    No, it is you making more difficult than it needs to be.

    He only committed two acts prior to his turn. He hadn't fully turned and embraced the darkness. That's Lucas's point in who he was before he became evil.

    Because the physical self represents all the bad, while the ghost represented the good that came before the bad.

    No, I did not. I said that Obi-wan and Yoda walked the path of the righteous. They never chose evil over good. Anakin did and when he did in Palpatine's office, that is when his inner self stopped aging.

    Because it is the result of the corruption of his body from using the evil to keep himself alive. The machines helped, but a lot of it was his own black will.
     
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  2. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    Yes, in that even though he's troubled he's still on the right side, and unlike later he doesn't kid himself that what he did on Tatooine was wrong. He's putting his life at risk trying to capture Dooku in AOTC, then in ROTS he's similarly endangering himself to rescue the Chancellor ( who he doesn't know to be a Sith at that point ).
     
  3. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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  4. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 13, 2003
    It does matter about Dooku since you and others have claimed that the Darkside ages you faster than normal. Dooku and Maul prove that that isn't the case at all.

    He can be on the "right side" and not be a good person. Just because he risks his life doesn't mean he is a good person.
     
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  5. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 2, 2000
    ...because he sold his soul to the devil! That's brilliant! ...and very creepy [face_worried]
    By choosing the dark side, he lost his soul. All the years that he then spent as Darth Vader belonged to the dark side. All that he had for himself was the years leading up to his turn.
    Once he'd killed the devil and renounced the dark side, he got his soul back and his inner self aged again.

    Ergo, his ghost appearing young is a sign of his lost years as a result of his deal with the dark side.

    Bazinga!





    - I will do whatever you... ask.
    - Hold me.

    /LM
     
  6. Darth Raiden

    Darth Raiden Jedi Master star 3

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    Aug 28, 2013
     
  7. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Oct 2, 2000
    Sweet! ;)





    - It's working! It's working!
    - Don't everybody thank me at once.

    /LM
     
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  8. Michael McKean

    Michael McKean Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jun 5, 2013
    Before all this.
     
  9. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    No, Dooku does very much matter because you calim that turning to the dark side speeds up your aging. Dooku disproves that theory.
    End of story.


    Interesting how "only" is used here. To make what he did not a big deal.
    Sorry but killing an entire village of men, women and children is not something I would use the word "only" with. This is mass-murder. So saying "He only commited mass-murder once before the turn." isn't a terribly effecitve argument.


    But there was plenty of bad that Hayden's Anakin did. And why does the physical self represent the bad? Old Anakin turned back from the dark side. He let go of his hate and anger and could finally do what his younger self could not. So why does Shaw only represents bad? Shaw is the face of a good Anakin, Arguable the most good Anakin has been since TPM.


    You said that Obi-Wan and Yoda look like when they became one with the Force. When Anakin became one with the Force, he looked like Shaw. That is an argument for Shaw.
    Now you try to invent an exception to this rule, the two jedi gets to look like when they became one with the force but Anakin, who died a Jedi, for some reason does not.
    And you have still not proved that turning stops your inner self from aging. See above, re: Dooku.


    [/QUOTE]

    Movie source for this?
    Anakin was burned, his arms and legs were cut off and he spent over 20 years inside a suit.
    That alone is enough to make him look a lot older than he really is. Had Palpatine not come, Anakin would have died. When Vader's suit got damaged in RotJ, he died not long after that.

    Lars_Muul.
    I do understand what you said about the different sides of Anakin, that he has good sides and bad sides. I can see that over time in AotC and RotS he is corrupted by the venom of the dark side and he lets his fear and ager grow stronger. This makes his good qualities weaker and strengthens his bad sides.
    But he is still Anakin and at times he realizes that something is wrong with him. That he has become tainted. That he wants more even though he knows he shouldn't. His self control has also gotten weaker and he acts before he should. He can feel bad about it afterwards but he apparently can't stop himself from doing those evil things. So before the turn, his soul/spirit is still inside him but it is tainted, poisoned and corrupted. When he turns, his good qualities are drowned under a sea of hate and anger, both fueled by the dark side. He can remember his old ideals but now he views them with contempt, that the person he used to be was weak but now he is strong.
    To me, his soul is still there, but now totally foul and corrupted.

    In ESB his good qualities begin to surface, he feels unexpected emotions. he doesn't want to kill Luke. He wants Luke alive, sure not for a very good end but still he cares on some level.
    In RotJ those feelings grow even stronger and Anakin realizes that he might have made a bad choice all those years ago. But he thinks he has no choice now and what is done can not be undone.
    His chains can't be broken. But Luke proves him wrong and Luke's faith in him, gives him faith in himself and he breaks his chains, lets go of his hate and anger and destroys his evil master.
    In terms of spirit/soul, Anakin cleanses his spirit/soul. It is now free of venom and corruption. But it is as old as Anakin is. It never went away, it was always there.

    This is why I still have problems with Anakin soul going away. By saying that, you remove a part of Aakin from what Vader is doing. And his soul should be the most important parts of Anakin and by removing that from Vader actions, then you make the real Anakin not so responsible for what Vader did. Also, Luke sensed the good within Vader. That tells me that the good part of Anakin, his soul if you will, was always there. Buried under a lot af darkness, hate and anger, but still there.

    And showing his ghost as young doesn't say much about his lost years. Indeed, to me, it seems to say that what happened after the turn was not important so we removed that and don't think about that any more. To me, that cheapens the full character arc of Anakin Skywalker.
    Old ghost, whether Shaw or Hayden with make up, would acknowledge ALL of Anakins life and actions, good and bad. He died a good man, a redeemed man. But his evil actions are not forgotten or removed.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  10. bluuu

    bluuu Jedi Youngling

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    Nov 15, 2013
    I can understand the arguments for either young or old ghost, and I'm not sure one absolutely trumps the other. One thing I want to note, though, is that the films never delve into the afterlife aspect (they graze it, at best). It is pure mysticism with too many vague variables. In other words, as cliche as this might sound, I don't think there's a correct option between the two versions.
     
  11. Firmus Jagdon

    Firmus Jagdon Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 7, 2013
    Too many people are not understanding the point of Hayden in JEDI...this not a preference, if it is, you are missing the broader picture...
    It makes sense. If you spend, hours watching the saga from start to finish its immensely satisfying to see the kid redeemed. Sebastian Shaw would be fine if the prequels were never made since that would have been the only version of Anakin we knew, but since we have now have seen Anakin in his Jedi glory as Hayden. Shaw’s appearance, barely on screen for a couple of minutes, makes little sense now compared to Hayden’s six hours and provides no dramatic power whatsoever. That's from the surface POV... but the reasons why exist because the Force was inspired by elements of Christian religion among many others, but predominantly; Lucas is doing a vintage change up and using some of those elements to define the Force and why young Anakin returned to his pristine self. He lost his soul when he turned to the Dark side, (the shot in ROTS with Anakin arriving on Mustafar and looks into the camera shows this) Lucas has said it is akin to being possessed by a demonic spirit, squelching all humanity from his soul. This is where he truly died, not years later on the Death Star.
    He died young and Vader was mostly machine- he died young in the Force as Anakin, not Vader. He didn’t live to be an old man in the Force as Obi Wan or Yoda, (which is why they are old when their ghosts appear) he lived to be an old man in a burnt, destroyed body as Vader a Sith. When he died, his ghost represents when he was a Jedi… returning… and not a Sith. Most theories of the afterlife depict people returning to their prime selves, not as some withered, ugly old man.​

    The Sith's don't become ghosts so that's not even a logical point...w​
    At this point, the addition of Hayden is not based on anything concrete and sound like making zero sense, (which it does) or contradictory, (which it’s not), it’s based on the cynical jerks who don’t dig the prequels and have really nothing against it other than petty and pathetic sour grapes
     
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  12. Firmus Jagdon

    Firmus Jagdon Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 7, 2013
    While were at it, The NOOO is echoed from SITH to JEDI. The first NOOO is of defeat, regret, the second is for freedom, defiance. It actually makes a ton of sense that I hope fans will learn to investigate and appreciate.It was the last remnants of humanity, emotion, and freedom being purged from his soul as Anakin realized, and subsequently accepted his fate. As a young man, he was too consumed with hate, ego, power, and jealousy to fight it; he felt his loved ones had betrayed him he had no choice but to succumb.
    In contrast, to Return of the Jedi, he sees a reason to reject it. You have the slumbering Anakin slowly awakening, (this begins in full when Vader is defensive about Luke calling him Anakin) remembering his humanity and compassion, and making a mindful choice not to let it continue anymore. Palpatine had stolen everything Anakin ever cared for, and as he witnesses his only son being murdered, unlike Mace Windu’s death, Vader decides to act, so the vocalized NOOOOO in this instance is wholly appropriate, finally shaking the chains of oppression and being released by killing his oppressor, Emperor Palpatine.

    Thank you and good night!
     
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  13. TOSCHESTATION

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 17, 2003
    ^^^Yes. We're to believe that turning stops you from aging, but somehow does not also keep you from ghosting in the first place ......
     
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  14. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    How was Anakin able too come back if he was dead?
     
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  15. Firmus Jagdon

    Firmus Jagdon Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 7, 2013
    He came back because he was never physically dead, only spiritually," once he let go of his anger and hate, he was able to go to the next phase, which was a Force Ghost... he didn't die in the Force, as Obi Wan and Yoda did... make sense?
     
  16. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    The way I see it was that Anakin Skywalker never died. Sure he was 99.99999999999999999999999999999% gone and was taken over by Vader for the longest time but was coming back in ROTJ before he stopped Palpatine. I just can't buy that he was 100% gone and was somehow able to come back from that. There had to be a tiny part of him alive to make it (to me) realistic that Anakin could take over again. And with that small part of him being alive he aged and wasn't Hayden anymore.
     
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  17. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 13, 2003
    Yep, just like Luke saw as well
     
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  18. TOSCHESTATION

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 17, 2003
    ....by not cooperating with the appeal-to-Lucas defense.


    'Only' equivocations aside - IF that was Lucas' point, then he sabotaged it by making Anakin 'grey' or skirting with the dark side in AOTC and ROTS prior to the turn.


    Is there a "Dark Side 101" book that explains all of this? Just wondering where this comes from, under a films-only perspective.....
     
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  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Right, but we don't see their ghosts so it doesn't matter.


    Except Anakin was a good person even after his first indiscretion. That was the point of his turn. He was a good man who made bad choices and those choices lead to him making a conscious choice to become evil. He was still good at heart and still did good things, which is why Palpatine's plan to turn him on the Invisible Hand didn't work out the way it should have. He was hoping that Anakin would become his Apprentice and leave Obi-wan to die. That's why he was crying on Mustafar after all that he had done up to before Padme shows up.

    "There's always this good in you. And the good part is saying 'what am I doing?'. Then the bad part kicks in and says 'I'm doing this for Padme, I'm doing this for the galaxy and so we can have a better life'. But the good part is always saying 'WHAT AM I DOING?!"

    --George Lucas to Hayden Christensen, Hyperspace webdoc.

    "Anakin on the balcony contemplating what he’s done. This is the first time he actually has a chance to think about what it is that’s happened by himself and the tear here shows that he knows what he’s done but he’s not committed himself a path that he may not agree with but he is going to go along anyway.

    It’s the one moment that says he’s self aware. He rationalizing all his behavior. He’s doing terrible things. But in the end he really knows the truth. He knows that he’s evil now and there’s nothing he can do about it and that’s the moment where the pathos of him being stuck in that suit is real because if he had to do it over he probably wouldn’t do it but he can't stop it now."

    --George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.


    Except as I also pointed out that Vader and Sidious also used it to keep themselves alive longer than they should have. Not to mention Dooku doesn't repent and thus we don't see a ghost.

    Just because he committed a mass murder, doesn't make him evil. He just committed an act of revenge which not everyone who does is evil. He was still good. He still cared for his friends. He still cared about doing the right thing. He hadn't fully turned evil yet. His soul was still salvageable at that point.

    Because he used the dark side not only to do evil things, he also used it to keep himself alive when the fire should have killed him. The body is corrupted and when freed, the soul that was is as it had been before the fall. Before the burning.

    I didn't invent this. Lucas did. I'm just trying to explain it to you.

    Right, because he had let go of the dark side and because his suit was damaged. That's why he dies. The two things were necessary to keeping himself alive like he was.

    Which is the point of the ideology that I spoke of. A Jedi does not think of themselves. A Jedi can let go of all conscious self and physical self, in order to return from the Netherrealm of the Force and appear as they do. A Sith Lord cannot do that, because they want to live in the mortal world forever. They are selfish beings who crave power and wish to use it to rule over all. That is why Qui-gon told Yoda the requirements for becoming what he was almost capable of, required a state of being that a Sith cannot reach.

    Except he didn't. Lucas's point in Anakin's fall was that he was a good person, but because of his power in the Force and his emotional state, he winds up making bad choices in the name of what he thought was right. This is so that we understand why someone would choose to do what he did and why Luke can sympathize with his father when the time comes. That's why Lucas made the prequels, because he liked the idea of a good person who takes the wrong path and pays for it. It shows that he could be saved, but he continues on his downward spiral because he cannot pull himself back.
     
  20. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 13, 2003
    [face_laugh] You, sir, are funny. It doesn't matter if we see their ghosts or not because YOU were talking about the dark side aging you PHYSICALLY. So Dooku and Maul do matter because they completely disproves YOUR assertion that using the dark side ages you physically. It doesn't. Exhibit A - Maul. Exhibit B - Dooku.

    :oops: You really think that what Anakin did was an "indiscretion" and that he was still a good person? He committed MASS MURDER. A mass murderer IS NOT a GOOD person.
     
  21. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Oct 2, 2000
    That's an absolute. We all know what they say about absolutes.





    - If you are not with me, then you're my enemy.
    - Then I'll see you in hell!

    /LM
     
  22. Firmus Jagdon

    Firmus Jagdon Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 7, 2013
    This is stated twice, first by Padme, her final words, "There's still good in him... I know..." And Luke on Endor... "I sense good in you,"....
     
  23. Firmus Jagdon

    Firmus Jagdon Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 7, 2013
    Anakin did not... He was under the spell of Palpy and did the murdering under Lord Vader. He expressed reget over the Sand people, but they killed his mother so he gets a pass for that one.
     
  24. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Okay. I guess we are on the same page.
     
  25. Firmus Jagdon

    Firmus Jagdon Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 7, 2013
    HAHA! Yes we are... I love to talk Star Wars...
     
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