CT That Old Man Anakin

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by WhinyLuke, Sep 22, 2012.

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  1. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Kennedy's a rather special case though in that he was the youngest president ever elected to office. That and I think you have to remember that to even be eligible to be President, one has to be at least 35. Contrast this with the Jedi where Luke (in his twenties ) is trying to train to be a Jedi and Yoda makes a comment about his age.

    It's about context, in my opinion, because when the youngest a President can possibly be is 35 then, yes, a man who was elected at 43 is comparably young. But with the Jedi -- if one can become a Jedi in one's twenties (as Luke does), then I find it significantly harder to believe that anything over 35 could be considered young. That's a pretty subjective point, to be fair, but I don't think your analogy holds very well due to the age limit for US President.

    Plus, consider that Kennedy died at 46 and (President or not) that's a very young age to die at, comparatively speaking.

    I understand that. But Luke's youth is a pretty serious plot point as it is also reflective of his inexperience and susceptibility. Vader also calls him a "boy." But that's really beside the point (for me). Han is noticeably older than Luke. Thus, it makes sense that he would teasingly, sarcastically, or endearingly call him "kid." With Vader and Obi-Wan, Shaw's ghost does not look younger than Guinness. I think it's a stretch to say they look even the same age given that there's almost a decade between them. Thus, Vader specifically using Ben's age as an insult is really rather odd when one takes the Shaw ghost into account.

    See, I agree with you and Toschestation in thinking that Yoda was just testing Luke's resolve, but I still think the fact that age was brought up is rather important. It seems a rather odd thing to bring up if it wasn't some sort of tradition or common practice. What I mean is, Luke can actively work to control his anger and reign in his impatience. He can't do anything to change his age. So Yoda bringing it up demonstrates (to me at least) that he's testing Luke's resolve by bringing up points that might prove difficult in Luke's training --> and Luke's unusually advanced age of starting is one of them. At least, that's what I take away from it.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Nov 17, 2013
  2. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    star 6
    All of that is true. But still, I think Kennedy's characterization as 'young' may have to do with more than just the presidential age requirement. His lifestyle, his looks, his political views; all of those probably (to my eyes at least) contribute to the feeling that he was 'young.'

    I guess all I'm saying is that if Lucas were going to go with the Annikin age for Anakin, instead of the Darth age, I could buy that line about "young Jedi" even if it applied to an Anakin who was only a decade younger than Ben.

    It's been a long time since I've seen the original ghosts, but I bought Shaw as Anakin. I don't remember thinking he was way older than Ben, just by appearance. I don't know if I could easily distinguish a generic 62-year-old from a generic 72-year-old old if looks were all I had to go on.

    Again, this is just one of those 'if they'd have stuck with the older Anakin, I could have bought it, personally' things.

    To me, the age thing and the line "you must unlearn what you have learned" go hand-in-hand. It would be easier to train if you start before all your preconceptions are formed (similar to the "there is no spoon" kid in The Matrix) but it's still possible for Luke (and Neo). Age seems like an effect rather than a cause; the real problem is the closing of an open mind. And Yoda has been watching Luke, so he knows how his development has gone.

    Is age relevant? It could be. But if necessary (if starting with an older Anakin, for example), that line could be retconned like so many other things. It's really a matter of figuring out which retcons you (you being GL) preferred. I think everything in the OT except the Shaw ghost could be made to fit relatively easily with either age for Anakin. And Star Wars is the king of story points being 'made to fit.'
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Nov 17, 2013
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  3. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    You may be right about that, but truthfully, to me the biggest factor for Kennedy is always going to be the fact that compared to other Presidents, he was unusually young and that he died so tragically and early in life. All of that will, forever, contribute to his perpetual youth in the context of America's historical discourse.

    Unless most Jedi were older than Anakin or Anakin actually was still a young man (which is the route the PT went), I just don't see how your point fits exactly. Especially when compounded with subsequent statements in the OT.

    And I'm not saying you're wrong to think that but, personally, I can't see Shaw at all as being near Guinness' age. Let alone younger. He looks older (though still good for his age).

    That being said, the references to Anakin's age in the OT are passing at best so if you watch it in isolation (without the PT) it's much less likely that Shaw's age will be an issue. My point simply was that, in the context of the OT, Anakin is supposed to be younger than Obi-Wan and so casting an actor to play Anakin's ghost that is almost a decade older than Obi-Wan's actor is problematic. Of course, that's really beside the point because Shaw was cast for the unmasking scene -- no ghost scene was ever really planned.

    You make a good point, but I guess where I do see Yoda bringing up age as relevant is that I can't see why he would unless there was some precedent for it. As I noted earlier, Luke can't do a darn thing to change his age. Why not have Yoda say "the boy is too set in his ways" to better reflect the issue of "unlearning what one has learned"?

    Thus, I do think that even in the context of the OT alone, the point of age has some relevance.
  4. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Or it could be that he wanted to show that Anakin has gone back to his RotS self so old age make up would run counter to that.
    "Lucas confirms that he does not want to age Christensen, explaining that Anakin has reverted to who he was when he went over to the dark side. "
    Notice the word "reverted". That indicates that Anakin has gone back to something, not that something has unchanged within him.

    Or it could be that applying make up to Hayden would cost money and he would also have to tell Hayden what he was doing. And it seemed that Lucas wanted to do this as cheap as possible and telling Hayden was not a priority.

    Since he says that he killed them ALL, that does indicate that he ran after those that tried to flee.
    It also indicates a methodical search of each and every hut. So even tought we don't see it, the dialogue strongly indicates that Anakin killed each and every last Tusken in that camp, that would include searching all the tents and chasing after those that try to run.

    That all the warriors attacked him is probable but that the women and children did the same is much less likely. We know that sandpeople as easy to scare and they will run if they feel they are in danger.


    [/QUOTE]

    He lost control because someone close to him died. If Padme were to die then he could react the same way. And if he didn't see himself as a danger then that shows he doesn't understand the severity of what he did. He got angry and wanted revenge and he started killing and he didn't stop killing until there was no one left to kill. Anakin later said that as a Jedi he should not feel this way. But either he could not stop himself or he did not want to stop. Either alternative is a huge alarm clock. Self-control is very important to the Jedi, both because the power they have and the danger of the Dark Side. Both are things Anakin would be aware of. If he doesn't see this then that goes to show just how corrupted and tainted he has become.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  5. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    You overlook a crucial detail, Yoda didn't train Anakin, Obi-Wan did. Obi-Wan said that he took it upon himself to train Anakin and that he thought that he could train him just as well as Yoda. Why he did this is not explained in the OT but it is possible that Yoda deemed Anakin as too old and that is why Obi-Wan trained him.

    From what Obi-Wan said, that when he first knew Anakin, he was already a great pilot and Obi-Wan was amazed with how strong the Force was with him. That could suggest the following scenario. A 30's Obi-Wan meets a late 20's Anakin, who is an accomplished pilot. Obi-Wan can see and feel that Aankin is very strong with the Force and suggest to Yoda that he would ake a good Jedi but Yoda refuses. So then Obi-Wan decides to train him anyway. So in light of just the OT, the age factor does not have to be an issue.

    However, in light of the PT, Yoda's objection of old age does raise a few questions. Yoda decided to hide the Skywalker twins until the time was right. So after the events of ANH, why didn't Yoda or Obi-Wan call Luke and/or Leia to Dagobah? Why did they wait a further three years before doing anything? Luke and Leia are both hunted by the empire and if they were to die then all hope is lost.
    So Yoda has only himself to blame here, he culd have called Luke earlier but he didn't.
    This problem does exist in part in just the OT as well but since we see that Yoda was instrumental in hiding the children it gets a bit more iffy.

    Lastly, the "old man" insult is a case for younger Vader. But Vader can't see himself or notice how old he has become. But Obi-Wan has gotten quite a bit older since Vader saw him last.
    If you saw a class mate when he was 20 and then you see him when he is 50, you can say "Wow, you got old." Among old people, they can call each other "old man" even tought they are of the same age. Most often this is done in a joking, not too serious way.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
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  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    He can presumably still do simple arithmetic.
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  7. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    This gets brought up in the Rebel Force trilogy. Ben is not entirely sure Luke is suitable for training fully yet- he needs to see what Luke's doing for a while, before he finally decides Luke will not be "another Anakin".

    As to why not Leia- I'm not sure. Maybe he wants to ensure that the secret stays secret as long as possible- by making sure even she doesn't find out until Luke's completed his training.

    "That is why your sister remains safely anonymous".
  8. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Umm…no offense, but what does this have to do with what I said? I was just pointing out that given that Yoda mentions Luke's age as a consideration for his training as a Jedi (he's too old), the implication is that Jedi were traditionally trained at a significantly younger age than Luke was -- in their teens at the latest. I wasn't really talking about Anakin's own training, just that the OT set up a precedent for Jedi beginning their training before they hit their twenties.

    I'm not saying your scenario is wrong, but it does strike me as a bit odd that if Anakin began his training in his twenties (and this was common) that Yoda would say that Luke is too old given that it was apparently the norm among the Jedi. Why raise the objection then?

    In light of the OT, it seems that Yoda's words suggest that Jedi began their training younger than Luke was at the time -- so before they hit their twenties.

    I've always felt that Yoda's hesitance was merely him: a) testing Luke -- as others have pointed out and b) voicing his concerns to Obi-Wan. Because, like it or not, they once again have to place the fate of the galaxy in the hands of a Skywalker. That's not necessarily going to be their top choice.

    Also -- you're joking about the whole Dagobah thing right? Can you imagine trying to raise a baby there? Do Yoda and Obi-Wan even know how to take care of young children? Yoda might have taught classes, but that doesn't mean he's fit to see to the needs of two newborn humans.

    As for why they didn't call them there right away, it always seemed to me that Bail, in sending Leia to get Obi-Wan in such a desperate hour, would likely have picked up her brother at the same time (likely at Obi-Wan's insistence). Things got messy, though.

    Uh…sure it is. Unless Anakin get lava-backed fried his ability to do elementary school math, I think he knows how old both he and Obi-Wan are. And if you're going to insult someone as an old man, it doesn't work if you're about the same age or older than them. It would be like calling someone "fatty" when you are just as obese or even more so than they are. I mean, I guess you could do so, but it wouldn't work very well as an insult which I think you'll agree is the point of that scene.

    Also…I'd just like to point out that given that Anakin ends up killing Obi-Wan not five minutes later, I think we can safely say he meant it in a "serious" rather than "joking" way.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Nov 18, 2013
  9. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    The discussion is about Anakins age in RotJ and you argued that Shaw was too old.
    And one thing you brought up was this:
    So you made a case against Anakins "old" age and used what Yoda said in ESB.
    My counter is that Anakin could also have been "too old" in Yoda's eyes.
    It is possible that the normal starting point was younger than Luke's age but that need not apply to Anakin.

    Obi-Wan saying "A young jedi named Darth Vader." get very iffy in view of the rest of the OT.
    There never was a young Jedi named Darth Vader, that is the Sith name and title Anakin assumed when he turned. What Obi-Wan said was correct when ANH was made but in light of the sequels, it was not. So you have the certain point of view and all that but basically Obi-wan is lying here. Either by omission or twisting the thruth.

    From what I've read, Vader and Luke's father, when they were still separate characters, were not of the same age. I think the ANH novel even called Vader "a boy". So Vader was apparenty designed as younger and Luke's father as older. When they were merged, Lucas had a choice, go with Vader's age or with Luke's fathers age. When RotJ was made, he went with option nr two. But when it came to the PT, he changed his mind and made Anakin younger.

    Age isn't the only thing that seem to separate Vader and Luke's father. Vader was called "young jedi" or "pupil" while Luke's father was called a Jedi Knight." The implication that Vader's training was not complete unlike Luke's father.

    I think you missunderstod me, I was talking about after ANH and why Yoda didn't bring Luke and /or Leia to Dagobah. By that time both are grown up and Luke has started his training. So why wait three years? Secrecy is no longer an issue as both are being hunted by the empire. And they are together so if the empire catches up with the rebels, both Luke and Leia could die.

    But again, after ANH, Luke and Leia were at the same place so ghost Obi-Wan could have appeared to Luke at any time and told him to go to Yoda and take Leia with him. It makes little sense to wait three years. So if Yoda is that concerned with age then he should have told Obi-Wan to bring Luke/Leia directly after ANH and not wait three years. Also, why wasn't Leia called? In RotJ Yoda wanted Luke to pass on what he had learned. If he meant Leia then she is now even older than Luke was in ESB and thus even more unsuitable from an age perspective.

    In the earlier drafts of ESB, the other is said to be in training somewhere else. Which makes better sense. Luke and this other are both in training but at separate locations.


    [/QUOTE]

    Insults don't have to be very logical. And as I said, if you haven't seen a person for 30 years then the image you have in your mind is of a younger person but then you see this much older man. So it is not uncommon to think or say that this person has gotten old. Vader last saw
    When it comes to your own age, you know the age in years but wheter or not a person thinks of himself as old varies quite a lot. Some people in their 50's behave like they were much younger while others behave like they were older. And two people can be of a similar age but look very different in age. Say one guy has gotten bald, or has a gray beard while the other has not.

    I remember an old Clint Eastwood film where he called his co-worker "Shorty" all the time. Yes Eastwood was taller but not by much and the other guy was hardly short.
    And in the movie "Lock, Stock and two smoking barrels" one guy is often refered to as "fat man" despite him being quite thin and thinner than the people calling him that.

    Vader meant what he said as a taunt, Obi-Wan has gotten weaker and older, which in some ways is true. While Vader thinks of himself as more powerful than before. So in his arrogance he might ignore his own age and just see Obi-Wan as this old man compared with how he looked in RotS.

    But yes, this is an indication that Vader is younger than Obi-Wan. How much is not clear.
    From what I gathered, Obi-Wan was meant to be 70 in ANH and if Anakin was to be in his 60's in RotJ then Vader could be 58-60 years old in ANH. With those ages I can buy that an arrogant Vader would call Obi-Wan "old man" when he thinks himself as much stronger than his former master.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  10. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    But Leia isn't safe, she is an active part of the rebellion and is a wanted person. If the empire catches her, she would be killed.
    So after ANH, the secrecy/safety angle no longer works. Plus she is with Luke the whole time, if the empire gets to them, they are both dead.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
  11. Firmus Jagdon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2013
    star 1
    Unless the actors birth certificates are splashed across the screen, it doesn't matter.
  12. Firmus Jagdon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2013
    star 1
    They like to train children because there are easier to indoctrinate if you will. They have no egos, no pre-concieved notions of how things work yet. Anakin was stated as too old simply because of his fear... Luke was trained because both Obi Wan and Yoda knew him and knew he was good person free of hang ups, ego and agendas.
  13. Firmus Jagdon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2013
    star 1
    The ghost change has been explained. It's similar to stories of death, souls sometimes returning in dreams to loved ones, as their former selfs, Anakin ceased being ANAKIN on Coruscant, after killing Windu... he placed his soul on pause at that moment.. not hard to understand.
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  14. Firmus Jagdon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2013
    star 1
    She was safely anon to Palpatine... who never sensed her. Vader is the one who discovered her.
  15. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    That Vader/Palpatine doesn't know who she really is does not make her safe. She is a member of the rebellion and both Vader and Palpatine knows that. So if she is caught, she will be executed for treason. The empire is searching for the rebels and that includes her. If she is found, she would be killed.
    So Leia is already on the Empires wanted list. Her being a Skywalker only means that Vader/Palpatine might try to corrupt her instead of just killing her. But either alternative is bad.

    So Leia is not safe anymore and could get killed at any moment and since Luke is where she is, if the Empire finds them, both hopes could die.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  16. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    I agree, actually - although I don't interpret the Hayden ghost the same way. To me, it's not that his years as Vader are erased and forgotten (how could they be?), but rather that his spiritual growth was halted when he chose the dark side. With GL's quotes in mind, it seems to me like he distinguishes spirit from mind. Mind, body and spirit work together to form one whole, but they can also go separate ways. As is, the way I interpret the situation, the case with Anakin. When he chooses to join the dark side, he makes himself an incomplete person by denying his spirit nourishment. His mind and body continue to grow and learn things, but it's not until those last moments where he confronts his inner demons and defeats them that his spirit is allowed to grow again. Then, he is once again a complete person who has learned from all of his horrible mistakes. Again (and I know this means practically nothing to you), the robes tell me that he is now a different person from the Anakin I saw in ROTS. If he had truly gone back to who he was then, his ghost would've worn what he wore then.

    That's my take on it, but I totally understand why you think the way you do. I would have nothing against seeing an aged Hayden ghost in the movie, because for me, both versions make sense.

    I think that's about as far as this discussion can go right now. A new trilogy is in the making and hopefully, it will add something on this topic. Maybe it confirms what some of us are saying, or maybe it retcons the whole thing with a brand new explanation.
    Either way, I think I'm just gonna sit back and wait.





    - Sick have I become.
    - The dark side I sense in you.

    /LM
  17. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    Thats always the explaination I heard from Lucas. However, once Anakin turns back to the Light Side, wouldn't his spiritual growth catch up, he would once again be Anakin, not Vader?
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  18. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    It is true that he is no longer Vader, but rather than catching up (as in fast-forwarding 23 years), his spiritual growth merely continues from where it was halted. Spiritually, he has lost 23 years of his life, even if his body and mind have been along for the ride the whole time.
    ...according to Lucas - as far as we know. We'll see if the next trilogy says differently. He's changed his mind on a lot of things in the past. Who knows what's been said during those story conferences?





    - You're the closest thing I have to a father.
    - Old and weak.
    /LM
    Last edited by Lars_Muul, Nov 18, 2013
  19. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    Says who?

    If the spiritually growth also reflects what a person looks like, shouldn't his spirit look like Anakin, as he is when he becomes Anakin again?
  20. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    You don't have to quote everything I say when my post is right above yours - and I'm not gonna do this all over again. Please just read my above posts again. Everything I have to say about this is right there.





    - You have learned much, young one.
    - I am a slow learner.

    /LM
  21. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Yoda waits to see what kind of person Luke becomes now that he's started his training. When he feels that he is ready, he tells Obi-wan to tell Luke about him.

    Leia isn't called because the Code forbids training two at once, under one Master. Yoda chooses to start with Luke because he believes in the Force wants to be a student of it. When Luke shows up, he is disappointing him because he failed his test and Yoda worries that he might be making a mistake. He only brings up the age to Luke, because he's trying to avoid doing this since Luke's a **** up.

    Safely anonymous. Most people over look the second word. No, she isn't safe safe. But her true identity is secured from the Sith. When Luke says, "And sacrifice Han and Leia", Yoda tells him that he must do that. If she died on the Death Star or at Cloud City, it would be a terrible loss, but her true identity would be kept hidden from the Sith. If Vader knew who she was, he wouldn't have had her executed, he would have started to try and corrupt her. Just as he does Luke when he finds out who he is.
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  22. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    If Yoda made Luke wait three years before calling him then as I said, Yoda has only himself to blame for Luke being too old. Also he says that he has watched Luke and what he has seen doesn't fill him with confidence. Add to this the fact that Luke and Leia are both hunted by the Empire and could get killed at any moment.

    First, didn't Yoda realize that many of the old rules in the code were messed up and that is why they lost to the Sith? Didn't he decide to send Luke and Leia away and let them grow up normally before attempting to train them?
    So why would Yoda be so attached to this specific rule when he has discarded so many others?

    Second, this reasoning makes Yoda a bit of an idiot. He calls only Luke, not Leia, who is hunted by the empire and could be killed at any moment. If he calls Luke and he fails and Leia has been killed, then Yoda has just wasted his only two chances of stopping the sith.

    Third, could Obi-Wan even appear to Leia? If Luke is called and fails, can Yoda even get to Leia?
    Also getting Leia to come along with Luke would be a lot easier than getting Leia to come on her own. Leia doesn't really know Obi-Wan and even assuming that she could see his ghost, would she listen to what he has to say and go with him just like that?

    So given the risks involved, I find it very odd that Yoda would be beholden to such a rigid rule, esp when there is so much at stake.

    [/QUOTE]

    But she isn't safe in any sense of the word. The Empire is hunting her and wants her dead. The Empire not knowing that she is a Skywalker doesn't protect her in the slightest. Actually the reverse would be more likely. If Vader knew who she was, he would not want her killed but captured.
    She was safely anonymous before she started to fight the Empire. Once she did, she became a target, Skywalker or no Skywalker.

    To Yoda and Obi-Wan, the ONLY two people that have any chance of stopping the Sith are Luke and Leia. If they are killed then that means the Sith will never be stopped and their rule will go on forever.
    So it makes zero sense for Yoda to waste his resources, esp when he has so few of them. Luke and Leia are valuable beyond belief to him and Obi-Wan.

    Say that the empire attacks and kills both Luke and Leia. Now Yoda and Obi-Wan are totally ****** as their last two hopes have died while they were sitting on their behinds.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  23. Firmus Jagdon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2013
    star 1
    I don't see the point since none of that happened, :)
  24. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    @Firmus Jagdon - please don't post one message after another, include them all within the same post and use the Edit function if necessary. That applies to everyone.
  25. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    well getting your arms and legs cut off, getting burned, and living in the suit for 20+ years could age anyone as well.

    Mass Murder being evil is not dependent on public compassion for the victims. It is evil, plain and simple.

    Anakin "losing control" is not a defense for mass murder. He CHOSE to commit each murder. One by one. Person after person. Women and children after women and children.

    What he did to the Tusken's was evil. Once again, I find your continued attempts to justify mass murder troubling.
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