CT That Old Man Anakin

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by WhinyLuke, Sep 22, 2012.

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  1. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
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    It wasn't that Luke was too old. It was that Luke was full of anger, reckless, hot-headed and when they first meet, arrogant. In short, he was a disappointment to him. He had hoped that Luke had matured and when he didn't, he let his feelings be known. Obi-wan had to defend him because he had a better impression of who Luke was, than Yoda.

    Yoda has only changed the rules when it comes to how old to train Jedi. Everything else still stands and that includes training two Padawans at once.

    Which leaves one Jedi. So all is good. As I said to sluggo, if both were trained at the same time and Leia is better able to pick up on the Force than Luke, that could very well lead to jealousy and anger on Luke's part. There's a reason the Code forbade two Padawans to one Master.

    If Luke became a Sith, then they would find another way to reach Leia. If not while she was conscious, then while asleep.

    She knows who Obi-wan is as her father spoke of him and she was sent to pick him up. And was excited when Luke said that he brought him along. She knew to trust him.

    I just said that. Whether she is killed or not, the fact is that so long as they don't know, she's safe.

    To Yoda and Obi-Wan, the ONLY two people that have any chance of stopping the Sith are Luke and Leia. If they are killed then that means the Sith will never be stopped and their rule will go on forever.
    So it makes zero sense for Yoda to waste his resources, esp when he has so few of them. Luke and Leia are valuable beyond belief to him and Obi-Wan.

    Say that the empire attacks and kills both Luke and Leia. Now Yoda and Obi-Wan are totally ****** as their last two hopes have died while they were sitting on their behinds.[/quote]

    Then they find another.


    Why, it's not like I go out and kill people. Or do I?
  2. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Because I respect you and generally like reading your posts.
  3. Samuel Vimes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    First, Yoda clearly SAID that Luke is too old but if Yoda waited three years then Yoda has no-one to blame but himself. So his "too old" argument is mostly due to his own actions or inaction.
    Second, Yoda has watched Luke for some time and the flaws you mention where things he saw before and yet he decided to call him.
    Third, given that Yoda was already aware of Luke's flaws, why didn't he call Leia instead?

    Film source for this?
    PPOR.

    Also, he changed more than just the age, he allowed Luke and Leia to grow up with parent figures that would lead to attachments. So the no-attachment rule was thrown out as well.

    All good? I don't think you understood what I wrote. If only Luke is called and he fails his training, either by turning or that Yoda feels he is totally unsuitable and refuses to train him.
    So then he only has Leia but the empire has killed her so now he has NO ONE.
    So he has just wasted his ONLY TWO hopes in the whole galaxy, nice job!

    And this is a totally baseless argument. First it runs counter to the characters of both Luke and Leia. neither of them have shown any signs of jealousy or anger over these kinds of things. Leia was in awe over Luke's power, no sign of jealousy. Luke wasn't very interested in power for power's sake.
    He didn't brag in front of his friends or showed any signs of being jealous that someone might be better at something.

    Second, in the Jedi order, the young Jedi got training IN GROUP from Yoda, we see this. Is there no risk of jealousy here? That scene alone disproves this reasoning. Also, the Jedi were together in the temple so they would meet and talk to each other. Is there no risk then of jealousy? The Jedi students are not isolated from each other. Even if they don't train together they could meet and talk about how far they have progressed and what they can do. They could even show off their powers in front of each other. That could lead to some being jealous of others.
    So risk of jealousy doesn't work as a reason. Why one Master only has one pupil is more likely due to that training requires a great deal of concentration and later on, when they go on missions, having one person be responsible for two students might be riskier.


    Again how? In RotJ it very much seems that she couldn't see the Force ghosts, so can Yoda or Obi-Wan even speak to her in any way?

    You have a very odd definition of the word "safe". The empire is hunting her down and wants to kill her. That is not "safe". The empire is after her even without them knowing who she is. She is already at risk. If she is killed then that hope is lost forever. And when you only have two hopes, it is foolish to risk one or both for no reason.

  4. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Yoda doesn't call Luke at all, Obi-Wan does, on Hoth.

    "You will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me."
  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Yes, but not everyone can like everything someone else says.

    Yoda's making excuses to avoid training him. He finally gives in because he knows that though it is a dangerous thing to do, they have fewer options.

    Because Luke has a basic knowledge and understanding of the Force. Leia doesn't. Obi-wan started with him and now, Yoda must finish with him before moving on to Leia.

    1. In TPM, Yoda says that it is impossible to train two.

    2. In ROTS, they speak of waiting until the time is right. Nothing else said about changing their methods other than that.

    Except Yoda and Obi-wan then tell Luke that he must be willing to sacrifice his loved ones, when he wants to go to Cloud City to rescue them. Meaning that they haven't totally abandoned the attachment issue.

    Then they find another.

    Right, because neither one of them knew their true identities or potential. That's different from actually training in the Jedi Arts and all that it entails. Remember, Luke says that he is not afraid to endure the training, but Yoda tells him that he will be. And it is true, Luke faces his fears in the cave and then when the vision of his friends suffering comes to him.

    They were children. They don't comprehend as well as they do as teenagers. That's why when they're paired off with a Master/Knight, it turns into one-on-one training. Qui-gon and Obi-wan, Obi-wan and Anakin, Anakin and Ahsoka, Luminara and Barriss, etc. You never see two-on-one during the PT era.

    You don't think that there weren't failures in the Temple? That one or more Padawans didn't become jealous or resentful during their training? It was possible and it probably did happen. But it would be worse beyond just the Temple and out in the field. Especially later on when one becomes a Knight and the other does, because that one still isn't ready to advance.

    She's awake. Different from being asleep. Anakin had visions of the future in his sleep. Leia has memories of Padme from the Force.

    It's not my definition. It is Lucas's. Obi-wan tells Luke that she is safely anonymous from the Sith. He never talks about her personal safety because she was a member of the Alliance. He only talks about her being a Skywalker. She is safe from them in that regard, whereas Luke stops being safe the minute they learn of his existence.

    And Yoda says that there is another, even though Leia is in Vader's custody and Luke has gone off. Even Yoda did not think all hope was lost.
  6. Samuel Vimes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Exactly, they have fewer options thus it makes no sense to waste one option by letting her wander around the galaxy, hunted by the empire. So train both at the same time. The potential risk of doing that is far less than the potential risk of letting her be killed by the empire. Add to that, Obi-Wan and Yoda must know that Luke cares for her so if she is killed or hurt, it could affect him badly.
    So another reason to bring Leia.

    How long did Luke train with Obi-Wan? An hour or two at most. So Leia is hardly far behind.
    And how long did Yoda expect this training to go on? He already is very old. Given that the PT jedi trained for over ten years, does he have this much time? To train Luke and then Leia?
    Also, the longer he holds off with Leia, the older she gets and thus less suitable.

    They have abandoned it enough that Luke and Leia are allowed to live in normal families and develop bonds to their parent figures. This was not allowed in the old order. So they allowed attachments but they still did not want Luke to be a slave to those attachments. There is a difference.
    So they changed more than just the age.

    What part of "There is NO other." don't you understand? Luke and Leia are the ONLY two people in the whole galaxy that are an option to Yoda and Obi-Wan. That's it, no more, no one else. If they are dead then they have ZERO, NO, ZILCH alternatives.


    Still a basless argument as you have ZERO evidence to support to your reasoning. Luke has to face his fear but fear and jealosy are two very different emotions. There is NOTHING in the films that suggests that either Luke or Leia are resentfull against others because of their abilities.

    Oh so children can't be jealous? Wrong!
    We don't see two-on-one no but it did happen before the PT and after the OT too apparently.

    You have just admitted that jealousy might and probably did occur so then this rule you talk about has nothing to do with jealousy. Why would it be worse beyond the temple? This whole argument is baseless. The young Jedi train together and have to pass a test in order to become pupils to a certain master. If jealosy is such a problem then that would apply here to.
    Also, wouldn't jealousy be something the jedi tried to discourage? So if a young jedi shows sings of jealousy time and time again, wouldn't they be deemed unsuitable and not pass this test?

    Also, what is the official reason behind this rule? From what I found, the rule is mentioned but not that this was to remove jealousy. And it seems that this rule WAS abandoned at various times in the orders history. Say at a time when there were very few jedi masters. Which is the case in the OT as there is only one.
    Source please.


    You still have not showed that Yoda or Obi-Wan could contact Leia. Luke could see and hear the ghosts while awake. If Leia can't then they will have trouble contacting her. Thus it makes much better sense to have Luke bring her.

    Apeal to authority fallacy.

    He isn't talking about her personal safety? Then what kind of safety is he talking about?
    What difference is there between the empire hunting down and killing you for being a rebel and the empire hunting down and killing you for being a Skywalker? You are just as dead in both cases.

    Obi-Wan said that Luke and Leia were hidden from their father to protect them from the emperor, who could either kill them or try to turn them as they would be a threat to him.
    This works as long as they are HIDDEN. Once they become known as enemies of the empire, they are no longer SAFE. Sure, had Vader known about her she might be in MORE danger but she already is in danger.

    [/QUOTE]

    First, when Yoda said that, Leia wasn't the "other".
    Second, Leia was still alive so there was some hope, if very slim. Had she been killed, then other hope GONE, FINISHED, ERASED.
    Third, that Yoda is so blase about loosing one of only two hopes is more than a little odd in view of RotJ and the PT but that's for another thread.

    Bottomline.
    Luke and Leia are precious beyond belief to Yoda and Obi-Wan so it makes no sense to let them run around and risk being killed by the empire. And Yoda has no reason at all not to train both at the same time and plenty of reason to do just that.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  7. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    True, but defending and trivializing mass murder tends to cast a bad light on other opinions as it shows a flaw with logic, ethics, and morals. That's why I find it troubling.
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Except that it is possible that the Jedi knew that she was being pursued and so long as she was, then Vader wasn't trying to search for Luke. Which is what happened. That she was in essence, being sacrificed so that Luke could be trained in secret. That thought had just occurred to me.

    But Luke has been training on his own for three years. He's not nearly as skilled at the start of TESB as he is at the start of ROTJ, but he's come quite a ways.

    I think by TESB, he was going to let Luke train her after he had finished with Luke. Yoda wasn't going to spend the years and years with Luke that was normal. He was going to him until he was satisfied that Luke was ready. Might take a year. Might take two years.

    You forget that there are other Jedi potential out there in the galaxy. They rely on the Skywalkers because of their availability and their connection. If they both fail, then they would seek out another.


    That's because they haven't trained together. It isn't a baseless argument. It is part and parcel of the Jedi training.

    Jealously with regards to attention and personal items. Not in terms of ability. It is easier to control as children at that age, compared to teenagers and adults. That is why Yoda can train a dozen children at once, where the children are easier to handle compared to adults.

    Yes, the Jedi would tend to discourage it. That doesn't mean that they're always successful. Just as they weren't always successful in preventing Jedi from turning evil either. They can reduce it as much as possible.

    If you're asking about the EU, there were differences. Four thousand years earlier, Vodo-Siosk Baas had trained three Padawans at once. But late in the training, Exar Kun was easily enraged by Sylvar and lost control of his emotions, nearly killing her before being stopped. A rivalry had developed between the two Jedi and worse that Credo idolized Exar. Conflicting emotions between all three Jedi that eventually took its toll on them, leading two down the dark path and one to skirt the line years later. In Obi-wan's era, he and Bruck Chun were rivals because the latter would tease and antagonize the former throughout early pre-teen years. Enough so that that this resentment nearly cost Obi-wan his place in the Jedi Order and would lead to Bruck being turned by Xanatos. Anakin had a rivalry with Ferus Olin which in the years before the Clone Wars, lead to all kinds of tension between them. Though Ferus didn't turn and Anakin did, it became a subject in their later confrontation. Then years later from that, Zekk had found out that he could be a Jedi like Jacen and Jaina Solo and resentment was fostered in him by Tamith Kai, leading him to become an agent of evil. So jealousy and resentment was there when multiple Jedi trained together. It didn't always happen and it didn't always lead to the dark side, but it didn't help matters either. In Yoda's case, in the films, he is doing his best to avoid a repeat of Anakin. Much less Dooku.

    Yoda says that the Jedi can see things in the past, in the future and old friends long gone. Anakin says that he can see the future in his sleep. Leia has memories of her mother, but she wasn't with her beyond those few moments. They could come to her in her sleep.

    Hey, you asked.

    The difference is that the Jedi know that the Sith would want to train the Skywalkers if they didn't want to kill them. This was true with Anakin as Palpatine wanted to turn him after learning of him and Vader immediately sets out to turn Luke as soon he has has confirmation of who he is. Leia wasn't important other than her status as a rebel. Vader never became obsessed with finding her as he was with Luke and that is because his identity was known. If Vader had known, then he would try and take her as well. On Cloud City, he only has Leia so that he can get Luke. He even considered letting her stay there once he had Luke, before he changed his mind. If he knew who she was, he wouldn't bother with Luke, he would take off with Leia.

    I'm aware of that.

    Jedi will sacrifice if they have to. Yoda and Obi-wan had both said that they would sacrifice the other if it meant ending the Clone Wars tomorrow. Yoda tells Luke that he should sacrifice his friends if it meant that he stayed and continued the training. They put the needs of the many above the few and even when it seems illogical, as Luke thought it was, they would do so if it was the right thing to do.

    I'm not trivializing it. I am merely pointing out that Anakin's actions were bad, but it was not enough to make him evil. As to defending it, I don't exactly defend it, but I understand it. It is human nature to want to hurt someone else as badly as they hurt you. To give into it or not, though, is a different matter. That is what Anakin faced that morning when he lashed out in anger and hatred. Though Luke doesn't know the details, he is able to find forgiveness for his father and his crimes, because he is capable of feeling compassion for him. He knows that whatever he did was wrong, but he could understand why he did it. It's the same way with Padme when she chooses to keep quiet about what happened and isn't repulsed by it.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Nov 20, 2013
  9. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Sorry, but calling it a mistake and downplaying it is trivializing it. Speeding is a mistake. Commiting mass murder does make you evil.

    I agree that lashing out to hurt someone else as badly as they hurt you can be human nature. The difference is Anakin went far beyond that by murdering women and children that had nothing to do with his mother's death.
  10. Alessandro Sanfilippo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2013
    star 1
    Where is the OP, she is a hot girl and wanna talk to her :)

    Mod edit: Not really an appropriate comment

    And you're kidding yourself if you think that's actually the OP:p
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Nov 21, 2013
  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
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    Well, as I said a few years back, who is to say that they aren't blameless? What makes you think that the women didn't participate in her torture? Hell, the children themselves are being raised to do what their parents have done. In Anakin's view, they were all guilty.
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  12. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    That depends on who you ask.
    The fact that you have different views on this proves that Palpatine is right: Good is a point of view. There is no definitive moral standard. Nature doesn't distinguish right from wrong; People do. We decide what is good and what is evil - and since we are individual thinkers, we often make different decisions.

    From my point of view, the murder of the Tuskens was an act of evil. Anakin was tainted by it and would carry it with him for the rest of his days. It would forever be a part of his life.
    That doesn't automatically make him an evil person, though. He was good until he joined the Sith. There was still hope for him until Mustafar, but turned, he had.





    - You're a good person, don't do this!
    - It's all right, I can see a lot better!

    /LM
  13. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    What about "neutral"?

    Maybe he was good till he killed the Tuskens, neutral afterward, and finally crossed the line all the way into evil in ROTS.
  14. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    I guess you could say that. He always had good intentions, but since he was also driven by greed, he descended slowly but surely into darkness.
    The trilogy was meant to portray a gradual transition to the dark side, after all.
    It says something about all of us, too. We all start out innocent and pure, but as we hit bumps in the road of life, we get bruised - and sometimes inflict damage on others, as well. None of us are perfect. We all have our dark spots - like the sun.
    ...but we also have bright spots. Noone is pure evil and noone is pure good. We're just human!

    ...and that's 11 000 posts! YEEHAW!!!





    - Wonderful! We are now part of the tribe!
    - Good goin', Ani!

    /LM
    Last edited by Lars_Muul, Nov 21, 2013
  15. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    congrats on the post count!
  16. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    Goodness, we're still fighting, er I mean "discussing" this?

    ...and congratulations @Lars_Muul on achieving your post count!!!
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  17. TX-20 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2013
    star 4
    WAR! But it's all good. Both sides have heroes. Evil is everywhere though...
  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Many of the older discussions went on for three years. Even longer. It was much different back when page/post count limits were in effect on the old forums.
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  19. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    No offense meant here.... just like watching a stalemate in WWI. Warfare where each side is firmly entrenched in their positions. You guys were obviously presidents of your high school debate clubs... :D
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  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Nah, we were just very passionate individuals with a lot of time on our hands.
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  21. Sith-Mullet Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2003
    star 3
    If I were to replace anything it would be the ending of RotJ. I hated the Ewoks dancing and all the fakeness surrounding it. It just goes to show you that cocaine can really mess with your dreams and visions.
  22. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    [face_shame_on_you]

    Let me get this straight:

    Ewoks dancing and "fakeness" (read: people acting genuinely happy) = "cocaine use"

    - but -

    Yoda flipping around, bouncing off walls fighting Dooku in AOTC = NOT cocaine use


    o_O
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Dec 2, 2013
  23. Sith-Mullet Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2003
    star 3
    Carrie Fisher has stated in her biography that most of the cast and crew were using a variety of drugs. Her guilty pleasure was snorting copious amounts of cocaine. The scene you are referring to regarding Yoda would have to be related to the graphics team doing drugs. I would say that they were sleep deprived and not loaded with chemicals.
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  24. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

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