CT That Old Man Anakin

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by WhinyLuke, Sep 22, 2012.

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  1. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    So you don't think it possible that 20 or so years of dark side use MIGHT age someone? And what's the actor's age got to do with the character's age - you may well think he looks old but a lot of folks don't "see him as 70."


    I don't follow your logic at all. "Best" because he found he was going to be a father while young? What in heck has that to do with anything? He died middle-aged, not young and after years of dark side use.

    You are, of course, free to find this "exciting." Not all of us do. Some of us find it disconcerting and out of place.

    If you absolutely have to have Hayden, "age" him and stick that face in the next revision of the movie. Then the Hayden-preferrers get Hayden, and those who prefer an aged man get an older man.
  2. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    =D=

    Fixed it for you.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Oct 21, 2012
  3. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    As i said earlier, it's more fatherly to put in Hayden christensen as anakin skywalker's ghost at the end of return of the jedi, because he sees luke and leia, put in his younger form. If he never became darth vader and put in that robot suit, he would have raised his children normally. He was about 20ish, when they were born, and he would have raised them at that age. Showing his younger ghost is showing anakin as the father that luke and leia never had.
  4. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I'm not following that logic at all, and I have nothing against the Hayden ghost.

    How is it "fatherly" to have the 23-year-old Luke seeing his father at age 23? As Valairy mentioned, Vader was 46 when he died; the 22-year-old Hayden (based on the time frame that ROTS was filmed) could no more pass for 46 than the 70-something-year-old Shaw. And when one takes into account the aging effects of Vader's injuries and the Dark Side, Shaw is the more logical choice based on the "fatherly appearance" argument.

    Yes, if Anakin had not turned, he and Padme would have raised their children, but Anakin would still be 46, and would not look the same as he did when he was 23, the GFFA version of face lifts and wrinkle creams notwithstanding.

    If you are trying to say that Shaw and Hayden don't look alike, I agree, in fact I think Shaw had brown eyes. But that doesn't mean Hayden looks more "fatherly" or that he would still appear as a 23-year-old simply because Anakin was young when his children were born.
    TOSCHESTATION and Valairy Scot like this.
  5. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Luke and leia never got to see a younger version of their father, because they were seperated at birth. Luke and leia seeing a younger version of their father is the closest we get to anakin never turning to the darkside and raising his children with padme normally.

    Also, as obi wan kenobi would say, "many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view".

    Shaw vs hayden ghost debates all have different opinions because of that.
    Last edited by Lord Tyrannus, Oct 21, 2012
  6. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    OK, I see your point there. I still think an aged Hayden might work better in that situation, but this is not an argument I'm heavily invested in either as I like both ghosts.
  7. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    I kind of like both ghosts, but I don't get sebastian shaw's appeal. I think hayden's ghost reminds us that the vader with the samurai helmet and pale face and robotic body and breathing is the same person as the long haired, young, handsome, jedi skywalker from the prequels.
  8. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Now I understand what you're trying to say (only newborn infants wouldn't remember how their dads look - only the mother :p) so even then I'd argue for at least a FEW years older Anakin. Thanks for perservering to clarify your point for those of us who didn't understand it.
  9. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Since the people that are hung up about Shaw being too old often use his actual age then the problem remains. An almost 80 year old actor plays someone almost half his age.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  10. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    It still doesn't fit because Obi-Wan said "..who was a pupil of mine UNTIL he turned to evil." That means that Vader was Obi-Wans pupil until the moment he turned. If we are going to use the excuse that Obi-Wan still sees Anakin as his pupil even when he isn't then he should have said "..who IS a pupil of mine that turned to evil." But Obi-Wan used the past tense when speaking of Vader being his student.

    Anakin status as master did not seem dependent on him learning anything from Obi-Wan having much to to do with learning anything at all.
    It seemed in part due to a lack of age/experience and that the JC did not like that Palpatine forced their hand. Obi-Wan managed to become a Master even with Qui-Gon dead, so he did not need him learn to become a Master.
    So Vader saying that he was but a learner does not really fit.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  11. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    "I was once a Jedi Knight, the same as your father" Seems to hint say that Anakin had at least reached Jedi Knight status.

    (It also seems to suggest Obi-wan never reached Jedi Master status before the Purge).
  12. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    But in a sense, aren't all Jedi (minus younglings, padawans, etc) widely known as Jedi Knights, with ranks of Knights or Masters? I get the feeling "Jedi Order" and "Jedi Knights" are somewhat interchangeable names for the organization, which is largely made up of ranked knights.
  13. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    The Jedi are like medieval knights in a sci-fi space setting. They are knighted in a ceremony. Yoda knighted Obi wan Kenobi. After becoming a knight, the council grants you the rank of Master, which Mace windu didn't give vader. They presumably do it because of your wisdom or skill, or something along those lines.
  14. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    It's possible that the concept of "Jedi Master" had not been invented at that point.
  15. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Well the interesting thing with this is that Obi-Wan calls himself and Lukes father "Jedi Knights" while Vader is refered to only "a young jedi."
    That, along with Obi-Wans comment that Vader was his pupil UNTIL he turned to evil and Vaders comment that he left Obi-Wan as a mere learner all indicate that Vaders training was not complete but Luke's father was.

    Bye for now
    Blackboard Monitor.
    TOSCHESTATION and sinkie like this.
  16. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Technically, you're correct on the implications. But really, nitpicking to this degree doesn't really add to your enjoyment of Star Wars, does it? At that time, Vader =/= Anakin. It changed. Modify your perceptions, then - Jedi spend all their lives learning and often from one another. It's not at all unreasonable that a Jedi, once a teacher to his apprentice, thinks in terms of being the teacher even past that stage.

    But, since I'm partaking in this discussion, nitpick away - who am I to say anything.
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Except the Force does not normally operate via begging, and he would have no particular reason to think that would work.

    You said it: he's accepting something inevitable. He even says that nothing can stop his death, and that presumably would include the Force. Letting go when it's inevitable is different from being advanced enough to "let go" in a general context.

    Because to compare him with aliens like Yoda is pointless and really conveys no information. He's being called young meaning young by human standards. And you can't use the argument that you don't know he's human because that is obsolete by TESB/ROTJ.

    But as I said, that can be explained by the effects of the dark side, but the healed Force ghost can't use this explanation.
  18. Mnhay27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 1
    Even as a child there was one thing that always bugged me about Shaw as Anakin: The accent. I could never understand why Vader spoke with an american accent for three movies, took off his mask, and suddenly he's English! And I still don't think it makes any sense.

    Sure, I can buy the idea that the mask lowered his voice to a deep baritone for some reason. But changed his accent? That's just silly.

    Am I the only one bugged by this?
  19. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    You don't think he sounds British with the mask on? Weird.





    Anakin - a man of many dialects
    /LM
  20. Mnhay27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 1
    Well. being an Englishman myself I can tell you with some degree of certainty that he doesn't sound like any Brit I've ever met. He sounds American through and through to my ears.
  21. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Oh it can but please bear with me. If Shaw in the unmasking scene is fine because he looks old due to "the ravages of the Dark Side" or premature aging due to the suit. Then his ghost is healed of his direct wounds, the cut of limbs and burnt of hair. But the "ravages of the Dark Side" isn't removed and the years he spent in the suit has left it's mark on him. So he doesn't get a face lift.
    Ex. take a young man that is quite fit and trim. Then when is around 30 he is an accident and looses both legs and spends the rest of his life in a wheelchair.
    The wheelchair and a certain bittereness towards life makes this fit person quite a bit overweight and he dies in his late 60's. Now say that he gets a ghost and his ghost is healed of his wounds, what would that mean? Probably that he gets his legs back. Would that also include that he gets slim as well? Not really, because him being overweight isn't a "wound" as such. It probably came about as a result of the wound but it isn't a wound. A person that lives in the desert would likely get a very wrinkly face, is that a "wound"? Again I would say no in this instance.
    Before you say it, no there are no absolute rules how ghosts are supposed to look. But the discussion about Shaws ghost involve the removal of his wounds and wheter an explanation can be found. To me, the premature aging, either due to his extensive use of the Dark Side or his years in the suit aren't wounds like having your legs cut off. So having a Shaw that has his wounds healed, arms, legs and hair back but not getting a face lift shows an Anakin that have spent years in the Dark Side and it has lef it's mark on him. His ghost is healed in some ways but not in every way. His ghost shows a man that has aged more than he should and shows that his actions and choices DID have consequences. He has redeemed himself but his evil actions has left a permanent mark on him.
    That he is healed shows his redemption and that the once good man has found his way back into the light but his old apperance shows that the years in the Dark Side are not wiped totally away. In all, the Shaw ghost shows the FULL character arc of Anakin Skywalker, not just the first part.

    This got a bit long and yes it might be a bit far fetched. But if you can accept Shaw in one scene, due to Dark Side aging then simply have that Dark Side aging present in the Shaw ghost as well and there should be no problem. So an explanation CAN be found.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
  22. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    As for why Anakin/Vader looks older, it's a combination of the darkside, his disfigurement on Mustafar, and barely taking that helmet off his face. A combination of factors.

    Besides, the younger Anakin ghost, as opposed to the Sebastian Shaw one, is way better looking than Shaw as Anakin.
  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    When he was younger, he wasn't trying to stop his own death, he was trying to stop the death of a loved one.

    When he attacks Palpatine, what is he doing? He's trying to stop the death of a family member.

    He still seems to have this thing about stopping the deaths of family members through drastic actions.

    It doesn't matter. The information is given as exposition to the audience as well, telling us that Vader was young when he turned. And it doesn't matter that Luke didn't necessarily know Vader was human in ANH, because we all knew he was human by the next film.

    If you were going to do that, you would want to compare him to human Jedi only, not aliens.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 24, 2012
  24. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    I don't see how Anakin Skywalker saving his son made him a good guy. The EU showed the empire doing a lot of atrocities, protecting a family member is redemption? Redemption is a change of heart. Many tyrants had families that they loved.
  25. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Shaw's ghost in Jedi, was ugly.
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