CT That Old Man Anakin

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by WhinyLuke, Sep 22, 2012.

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  1. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    I just quoted from the movie/screenplay (or "printed film")....check the movie/screenplay again, Arawn.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 1, 2012
  2. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Quote from the screenplay all you want. He didn't call Anakin good.
  3. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    Jan 17, 2003
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    :oops: Check - the - film, Arawn. It's there. In the scene @ Ben's home, he says, ......"and he was a good friend."
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 1, 2012
  4. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Like I said, he didn't call Anakin good.

    But when Disney remakes Ep.IV I'm sure you'll get what you want.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Nov 1, 2012
  5. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    Yes, broken-record, we heard you the first time and you're still wrong. You're engaging in contradiction for the sake of it*, like the famous Monty Python sketch.

    Now, if you actually have a point - say, like arguing that in the OT or especially ROTJ, Ben told Luke that "your father was a 'decent' but troubled young fellow when I knew him" - you'd be wrong of course, but you'd at least be arguing a point. Here, though, your tenacious arguing about minutiae serves no ultimate purpose other than to distract from the point of discussion.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 1, 2012
  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    You're thinking of the Disney version, not the ANH we have now.

    Trust in the Mouse, because the Mouse is in the house.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Nov 1, 2012
  7. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    No, I quoted from the ANH that we have now. Stop putting words in my mouth, Arawn. If you have no counter-argument or point to offer, leave this discussion.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 1, 2012
  8. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    The ANH we have now never had anyone call Anakin good. For that, we must hope that Disney makes the necessary changes.

    It wasn't Ben or ROTJ that spoke of Anakin's troubled nature. It was Yoda in TESB.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Nov 1, 2012
  9. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    Yes Yoda did...but Ben did not. Even in ROTJ, which was after Yoda's pronouncement, Ben mentions "the good man who was your father". That was the point of the quote that you lifted from post #155 - that YOU would have a point or reason to argue over the detail of how many times Anakin was called good by Obi-Wan if say, Obi-Wan in ROTJ had 'fessed up' and told Luke that "your father was a decent but troubled young man" or something more fitting in line with what we now know about Anakin courtesy of the PT. Instead, your just quibbling over the number of times in the OT that Ben called Luke's father good.
  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    I never said he did.

    I know. That's the one time Anakin was called good in the OT which I referred to.

    If, say, someone claimed repeatedly that Anakin was called good in ANH, which is false.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Nov 1, 2012
  11. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    I'm trying to figure out how "decent but troubled" is the opposite of "good."
  12. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    To conjure an imaginary OT/PT discrepancy out of thin air on this point, there's really only one place to turn.

    Show Spoiler
    [IMG]
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Nov 1, 2012
  13. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    star 4
    It's not the "opposite" of "good"....it's that "decent* but troubled" would fit more with what we were shown in the PT.

    *under a 'lowest common denominator' paradigm
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 2, 2012
  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    But if "decent but troubled" is not the opposite of "good", I see no contradiction in Obi-Wan's words. I did not interpret "good" to mean "without flaws" or even "not troubled."
  15. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
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    It's not necessarily a 'contradiction' per se, anyhow......


    My question then would be: what exactly DID you interpret 'good' to mean?


    words - they mean things
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 2, 2012
  16. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    I'll be happy to answer that, but I'm not interested in any sort of discussion in which you pick apart my definition and try to tell me why Anakin didn't fit it in your mind. I think we've already established that mileage varies on the criteria for "good."

    To me a good person loves his family and friends and fights for justice and the preservation of peace. Anakin's loyalty to his loved ones and his albeit-misguided intentions of ending galactic warfare made him good.

    As The Supreme Chancellor said, "good" doesn't mean "never making an ethical mistake" or "never losing one's ****." I think effort and intentions count, and I think hatred (the cold-blooded and calculated version as opposed to the heat-of-the-moment version we've all expressed from time to time) separates the good from the evil.
  17. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I agree.

    Some of Anakin's actions, while they were no doubt wrong, were actions I can see many good people making and are similar to a lot of the other responses of characters throughout the Saga.

    When Darth Maul killed Qui-Gon, for example, Obi-Wan didn't just let it go and meditate -- he tried to beat Maul to a pulp. Obi-Wan was simply lucky enough that he had an opponent skilled enough to fight back and then was able to collect himself when he fell in the pit. And he responded this way in spite of having been raised from birth as a Jedi.

    It's a similar situation with Luke. When Obi-Wan (someone he doesn't even know all that well) is killed in front of his eyes, his immediate response is to shoot the stormtroopers even as his friends plead with him to leave -- he's angry and can't let it go. Similarly, he goes off on Anakin in ROTJ for the mere threat against his sister.

    Or there's Leia and Chewie -- they're both fine with choking Lando for playing a part in having Han frozen in carbonite. Even though it's clear that Lando made such a decision under duress and is trying to help them. They're angry and thus they lose control and attack him in response.

    That's why I can't see the Tusken slaughter as precluding Anakin from being a good person. It was wrong, no doubt about that, but considering the circumstances, I can't say that any of the other characters would have responded all that differently.

    His other wrong-doing, killing Dooku, is again too "grey" for me to condemn him for it. What soldier wouldn't kill an enemy leader (who is responsible for countless deaths) when asked to by his head of state? Anakin's intentions and his desire for revenge were wrong, but again, I think many good people would have chosen as his did in his situation.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  18. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    But again, Anakin has once before been in the situation where he has murdered those that could not defend themselves. He knew that this was wrong and said he should be better than this. And yet when the situation again comes up and he has the chance to kill someone that he hates, he commits murder. And again, he fails to take responsibility for it. He does not tell anyone.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    star 7
    People always lose me in the Tusken argument when they assume there was a search. There is no evidence that Anakin calmly and methodically searched out every single Tusken in that camp, and plenty of evidence that he didn't: one, the AOTC novelization, which has him committing the entire slaughter in a heated blind rage, and two, the fact that "Anakin" and "calm and methodical" don't mix under the best of circumstances.

    I saw no reason to take "I killed them all" as literal fact any more than I had reason to take "It's all Obi-Wan's fault" as literal fact. I don't take the word of hysterical people at face value. I'm sure Anakin did kill every Tusken he saw, but in no way will I ever be convinced that he searched the camp to ensure they were all dead.

    And my view of the cop in your scenario would be different if the cop's mother had died in his arms a moment earlier after being slowly tortured. I'd still reserve the majority of my condemnation for the torturers--the ones who actually committed first-degree murder in the most horrific manner possible.

    I understand the "Anakin was a Jedi" argument, but in those circumstances I have a hard time judging him so harshly for the loss of control, and I certainly don't think he deserves more condemnation than the Tuskens.
  20. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    No. It was not self-defense because Luke could have left. In fact, that's exactly what his friends were imploring him to do -- "Come on, Luke." They knew he was angry and wanted revenge "There's nothing you can do." But Luke's feelings overwhelmed him and he continued to angrily shoot at them even though he is holding his friends back from leaving. It is only hearing Obi-Wan's voice that finally causes Luke to leave.

    Plus, one of the reasons that Luke is able to stop is because he cares about his father -- he wants to save him. And, just as importantly, he is able to look down at his cut hand and see how his own actions are leading him down the same path his father traveled. It gives him an opportunity for self-awareness that Anakin never got.

    Actually, a more apt comparison, I think, would be to the man who beat to death a neighbor he saw molesting his daughter. It was a spur of the moment rage brought on by intense emotion at a loved one being harmed. Anakin, unfortunately, had this compiled even more horrifically -- not only did his mother die in his arms, but he spent a month receiving visions of her pain and had to stand by powerless as she slowly died while those responsible for her pain were outside. Given the circumstances, I can understand that he snapped.

    Luke barely knew Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan had not been tortured for a month, and Obi-Wan allowed himself to be killed. Yet, Luke still responded with anger and killed people even when he could have gotten away. I'm not surprised that Anakin reacted so violently, to be honest.

    No they didn't. Luke killed stormtroopers -- people he knew nothing about (except for the fact that they, for certain, hadn't killed Obi-Wan since he saw Anakin do that). But did he care? No. What if they were conscripted? What if they were economically pressured? What if they had been blackmailed into service? He knows nothing about them but kills them anyway, just for being there and wearing the clothing of "the enemy." That's basically what Anakin did -- he was so blinded by rage that he was unable to control himself and simply attacked those who were either directly or indirectly tied to his pain. Plus, I don't differentiate between the women and men -- they're both adults and the power differential is not so great between them. Likewise, you're ignoring the fact that Anakin has the Force. He wouldn't need to "search" for anything -- he could simply destroy his surroundings in his rage. Look at what he did upon discovering Padmé was dead in ROTS, for example, and that was after he'd been mutilated and endured a long, drawn-out surgery.

    I think you forget that Anakin told both Padmé and Palpatine. Don't forget, he doesn't know that Palpatine is evil. Palpatine is the head of the Republic and in a position of authority. It would be equivalent to someone not telling their parents the truth but telling the President of the United States. I can understand why he wouldn't tell the Jedi, though -- he probably believed that the Jedi wouldn't be able to understand his reaction, having not been raised by their mothers themselves. Someone like Palpatine would have, though. The problem is that Palpatine told him "it is only natural" and thus Anakin would have been reassured. I can't blame him for trusting the words of a mentor.

    No I wouldn't. I would, however, sympathize with him if he had his mother brutally tortured to death and, in a blind rage, opened fire on those who had held her captive. If he then told the President who reassured him that what he had done was "only natural," I would understand why he wouldn't have told his superiors. Such a person clearly needs help, but if they are given reassurance, I can see why they might choose not to seek out professional help nor tell many others. When people are afraid or guilty, they often look to authority figures that they feel they can trust -- Anakin's mistake was trusting Palpatine.

    I agree that Anakin has a problem. I can also see, though, why he chose not to tell the Jedi -- the Jedi have never had mothers, they're the type of organization that says "mourn them do not, miss them do not." I think that he was afraid they would never be able to see just why his mother's death had disturbed him so deeply. And that's why he turned to Palpatine and also confessed to Padmé.

    He does not tell anyone because he's confused. And, in fact, he has no response when Palpatine brings up the Tuskens. You make it out as though Anakin's situation is clear cut although it isn't. He knows that killing in revenge is wrong, but at the same time, he trusts Palpatine and is praised for killing Dooku. He even says as much throughout the film -- "I feel lost." It's against the Jedi Code, but at the same time, Anakin wants revenge, Palpatine (his Head of State) is telling him to, and he is praised by Obi-Wan for killing Dooku.

    And certainly, it is wrong to kill unarmed prisoners, but situations are often opaque and ambiguous. When Seal Team Six killed Osama bin Laden without even trying to take him prisoner, there was some debate about the legality of the killing. But the soldiers who carried it out were heroes to the public, regardless of how the President was perceived for issuing the order.
  21. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Again it is NOT a case of condeming Anakin and NOT condeming the Tuskens. BOTH sides did wrong but two wrongs don't make a right.
    So I am NOT excusing or making light of the Tuskens but how his actions reflect on Anakin. Both what he did in the camp and afterwards.

    I base my judgement on the film, nothing else. In the film we see Anakin begin his killing, he cuts down the two guards at the tent, then some tuskens run towards him and anohter runs away/into a tent. He kills one that runs towards him and then we see nothing more.
    Then we have Anakin telling Padme what he did, that he killed them all and not just the men, but the women and the children as well.
    First we have no reason at all to doubt what he says here, he says he killed them all and we have no evidence that disproves that.
    Second, Anakin killed women and children, would a small child run and attack a much larger foe that is killing everyone in his path?
    Very unlikely, they would hide or run away.
    Third, we know that Sandpeople are easy to scare and they can run away from a percieved danger. So some of the sandpeople would have tried to run.
    But again since Anakin says he killed them all then we have to take him at his word. If we start with the idea that he is hysterical and doesn't know what he is talking about then why not dismiss the killing of children and women as well? Perhaps he killed only those three we saw and the rest ran off.

    Your version is that Anakin stands still while Tuskens run towards him and he kills them, all the while many other sneak of or hide themselves and then Anakin just leaves. Sorry but the movie does not suggest this. For Anakin to say that he killed them all does mean that he has to search the tents. Either he did this while killing or he did this search after he had calmed down. But a search is implied. If a killer enters an appartment building and then says "I killed everyone in that house." why should we think he means "I killed two guys in one apparment and then I left."? Should the phrase "The explosion destroyed every window in the building:" actually mean "The explosion destroyed some windows in the building."?

    The question about the cop was wheter the cop in question should tell his superiours what he had done and if that cop should remain on active duty and not seek any kind of help.

    Anakin was a part of an organization and he knew that his actions was a violation of their rules and how they should behave.
    So leaving the actual incident aside, afterwards he should have told Obi-Wan or someone esle in the Jedi order what had happened and let them decide what should happen to him. Remember, it is not just that a Jedi should not attack and kill those that can't defend themselves. There is also the danger of the dark side and how a jedi must not give into hate. Anakin would have been told this many times and how this is dangerous. What he did wasn't just killing, it was killing in hate and that is very much not something a jedi should do.

    Bye for now.
    Blacboard Monitor.
  22. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    star 7
    Again, if you're trying to sell me on the idea that Anakin conducted a search, don't bother. You're wasting your time. There is absolutely nothing you can say that is going to convince me of that.

    In the AOTC novelization, the women and children all ran into a tent, and Anakin used the Force to drop a large boulder on the tent. That is the version I accept. Make up your own version if you so choose, that's your prerogative, but I'm not going to buy it over a more official source.

    And if you are only going by what you saw in the movies, why are you including your own interpretations of what happened off-screen, after Anakin cut down the first two Tuskens, and expecting me to accept your version over the novelization? That's not basing your judgment on "the film, nothing else."

    The only part of this issue that I'm going to agree with you on, is that he should have told Obi-Wan. But I'm also not going to sit in pious judgment on him for not doing so, when there are a number of reasons why he might not have, including shame (and based on TCW novelization, I believe this was his rationale) and not having time for such a conversation when Geonosis happened.

    Killing in hate isn't something that anyone should do, but if I were in his shoes, I'm not sure I would do much better. And to me Anakin will always be a human being first, a Jedi second, especially when the Jedi Order seems to expect its members to have a personality opposite of Anakin's.
  23. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

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  24. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

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    I only saw the movie so whatever is in the novel isn't official to me in any way.
    I saw Anakin start to kill Tuskens and later he admits that he killed them all. Why is it unreasonable to assume that he did in fact kill every last Tusken in that camp? He says he did and we have no reasons to think otherwise.
    We see the village, about twenty tents and we hear Anakin say he killed all the men, women and children there.
    I hardly think it is making up my own version when I simply go with what is said and shown and make the simplest conclusion possible. Namely that Anakin killed all the Tuskens in that camp and he did so with his lightsaber. We only see him kill three Tuskens, were any of them children? No, so we know that Anakin did kill other Tuskens off-screen. How did he do this? We saw him use the lightsaber for the first three so what is wrong with thinking that the rest were killed the same way?
    We have no reason to think that any manage to run away or hide themselves.
    We have no reason to think he used the Force and given the state he was in, Force use seem unlikely. Yoda stated again and again the need for controll. Whenever Luke got distracted and lost control, he also lost use of the Force. When Obi-Wan was in pain, he had a hard time using the Force.

    Had Anakin come back and just said "I got angry and I killed many of them" that would be different. Or if he said "I killed all the men in that village." that too is different. But he makes a point of saying that he killed them all, including women and children. He adds that he "slaugthered them like animals."
    In all, what he describes sound pretty horrible so don't blame me for being horrified. I think that was rather the point of the scene.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
    Last edited by Samuel Vimes, Nov 4, 2012
  25. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    As I said, believe whatever you want, I don't care, just don't expect me to accept your interpretation of events above that of the novelization when I have no reason whatsoever to do so.

    And yes, we are supposed to believe that what Anakin did was bad; I'm not sure why you feel the need to keep pushing a notion that I've already told you that I don't accept, in order to make the point that what Anakin did was bad. Nobody argued otherwise.

    I am personally far more horrified by the fact that the Tuskens kidnapped Shmi Skywalker and tortured her to death than I am by Anakin's reaction, and I don't think that's in opposition to what Lucas wanted for that scene--if it were, why would he have written that Shmi was tortured? Why not shot in the head or some other much quicker means of death? Why not have her die of disease and have Anakin go bats on her doctors? Lucas chose an excessively cruel means of death for Shmi, at the hands of those who were deliberate in their insistence that she suffer as much and as long as possible, because we are supposed to find that horrifying as well.

    And no excuses that people have made for the Tuskens over the years have lessened my disgust over what they did, a disgust far greater than any I feel over Anakin's reaction.
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