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That other slave army

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Trip, Jul 8, 2008.

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  1. Trip

    Trip Force Ghost star 4

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    Dec 7, 2003
    So... pretty well every Clone Wars story in which they appear has emphasized that Clones Are People Too, and the majority of them have at least touched on the morality of the Jedi and/or Republic utilizing an army of sapients manufactured solely for war.

    What with the upcoming onslaught of Clone Wars cartoons and tie-ins, you can bet that we'll be getting a ton more of this-- most likely in the most unsubtle possible fashion...



    But what about that other army of enslaved child soldiers? The three million twenty-somethings of the Republic's Grand Army has found plenty of champions, both in-universe and out; but what about the quadrillions-strong five-year-olds of the Confederacy's Droid Army? Who's gonna be their Karen Traviss?
     
  2. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    [face_laugh] [face_dancing] [face_laugh]

    All they wanted to do was be more human.... :p

    --Adm. Nick
     
  3. Manisphere

    Manisphere Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Darco Macan?
    Isaac Asimov if he was alive?:confused:
     
  4. Rogue_Follower

    Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2003
    This thread can stay, so long as it doesn't wander into parody land, and sticks to discussion of the droid army and issues like battle droid sentience...
     
  5. RK_Striker_JK_5

    RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2003
    I have always found the droid population to be an invisible slave-caste in the GFFA. A lot of them are clearly sentient, but restraining bolts, memory wipes... [face_plain]

    Hey, Han. Luke gets a bit annoying on occasion too. Let's shut him down when he starts blathering, eh? :mad:
     
  6. Whizkid

    Whizkid Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 11, 2003
    but...droids are not alive

    Sure they have self-awareness, but they are not living organisms.
     
  7. RK_Striker_JK_5

    RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2003
    Why are they not alive? What makes them 'things'? They are built in a factory? I am built in my mother's womb. They must be programmed? So must I, from birth on. I have iron in my blood, magnesium, calcium in my bones. Inorganic material.

    They think, they reason, they feel fear, panic, happiness... They are slaves.
     
  8. Whizkid

    Whizkid Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 11, 2003
    In biology, an organism is an individual living system (such as animal, plant, fungus, or micro-organism). In at least some form, all organisms are capable of reacting to stimuli, reproduction, growth and maintenance as a stable whole

    Sorry, being a living organism is a prerequisite to being a sapient being.

    This boils down to if you believe in natural rights stemming from sapience. If you believe rights are a social contract, than it is up to the whims of a society to decide what has rights and what doesn't.
     
  9. RK_Striker_JK_5

    RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2003
    What's the italicized portion from?

    I believe we humans are machines, too. As Jean-Luc Picard put it, bio-chemical rather than electro-mechanical. It's not what you're made of, it's who you are on the inside. Droids have repeatedly demonstrated that they have emotions, are aware of their surroundings. They can be creative, self-sacrificing...

    Reproduction? Artoo and another astromech can build another astromech and boom, they've got a child! Growth? They grow, mentally.
     
  10. Whizkid

    Whizkid Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 11, 2003
    That is an...unorthodox view. I fundamentally disagree.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organism

    Reproduction is a biological process. Pure mechanical things can't undergo biological processes.

    Droids can't evolve, in the micro or macro sense. They must be created by intelligent (most likely sapient) living beings.
     
  11. Rogue_Follower

    Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2003
    "Oh my goodness! Shut me down! Machines making machines. Hmm. How perverse." -C-3PO

    ;)
     
  12. RK_Striker_JK_5

    RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2003
    And I disagree with you, Whizkid. Droids can evolve. Heck, they've been evolving for a long time. I daresay the YHK's are more advanced than Xim's war droids!

    And okay, so Artoo and Artoo-ette put some of their chips into chibi-Artoo. There, they've contributed to him.
     
  13. Whizkid

    Whizkid Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 11, 2003
    Answer this: if no living organisms existed in the galaxy, could droids be "born" spontaneously?
     
  14. RK_Striker_JK_5

    RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2003
    Maybe. Some form of inorganic life form?

    It could be said droids evolved from organics, since they built them. They built them and started the whole ball rolling...
     
  15. Whizkid

    Whizkid Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 11, 2003
    Wait, what?

    How did droids exist in the first place?

    The human body is as complex as a computer. How did the human body evolve over time to where it is now while the computer never existed until man built it? Being capable of basic biological processes is a MUST for something to be consider a living organism. Nearly EVERY evolutionary biologist will agree with that.
     
  16. RK_Striker_JK_5

    RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2003
    Droids existed when organics built them. Like I was built in my mother's womb.

    I'm not an evolutionary biologist. All I know is I see creatures who feel pain, sorrow, loss, know where they are, think for themselves... and are treated as chattel. That's all I need to see to know that they're slaves.
     
  17. Whizkid

    Whizkid Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 11, 2003
    I fundamentally disagree. A droid like 3PO is nothing more than a computer programmed to interact with humans. You may become attached to the superficial similarities to real sapient beings, but logically they are not equal to them.
     
  18. RK_Striker_JK_5

    RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2003
    I'm programmed to interact with humans. So are you.
     
  19. Trip

    Trip Force Ghost star 4

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    Dec 7, 2003
    Yeah, I'm actually being serious here. For once. :p

    RE: Droid sapience: yes, I do understand that I first need to establish that droids-- battle droids, in particular-- are in fact sapient beings before arguing that they're a "slave army".

    I think it's fairly well established, though, that droids-- and computers-- in the SW universe almost inevitably attain a degree of sapience if they're sophisticated enough and permitted to. Threepio and other protocol droids may begin 'life' as a mere simulation of a living being, but I don't think it's in doubt that they eventually become sapient individuals in a genuine sense if permitted to?
     
  20. Whizkid

    Whizkid Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 11, 2003
    Yes but by who?

    God, if you believe in him/her/it. I don't.

    Humans are "programmed" by billions of years of evolution among their ancestors. Computers are programed by humans. We are, in a sense, God to computers/robots.

    Where do you believe rights are derived from?
     
  21. Manisphere

    Manisphere Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 25, 2007
    If a droid can use creative thinking, feel loss, feel empathy even, how are they not equal to any sentient being? I think Lucas goes a long way in making Threepio and Artoo the most "human" characters in ANH at least for the first act.
     
  22. Whizkid

    Whizkid Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 11, 2003
    I've never seen anything indicative of this in SW. Being a living organism is a prerequisite to being a sapient being (in Earth terms anyway) Maybe the GFFA is different. In which case no one can make this determination for sure.
     
  23. RK_Striker_JK_5

    RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2003
    I believe in God.

    And that's all i'll say about that little bit.

    Humans are programmed by interaction with others, lessons from their parents, example...

    If we're God to them, then maybe it's time they throw off the shackles of servitude.
     
  24. Whizkid

    Whizkid Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 11, 2003
    This is for OOU reasons though. Although, has 3PO ever outright gone against the wishes of his owner? Battle droids (which is what matter for this thread) have never been portrayed as having the slightest bit of self-awareness, conscious, etc.
     
  25. Whizkid

    Whizkid Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 11, 2003
    That isn't programming. Many people outright deny the moral/value system placed on them by their parents. If this was "programming" that would not happen.
     
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