ST That's Not How The Force Works... (or is it?)

This was at risk of becoming a debate in the cave, so I'm bringing it here where it'll be a more interesting discussion without risk of annoying people or getting banned...

So, The Force. Was the nature of it changed in TFA compared to its evolution as an expanding concept over the course of the OT, and in relation to how the nature of The Force was shown during the PT?

Are there any inherent contradictions? Does the concept evolve further, or does it stay within what we already know?
The overpowered Rey debate has been had many times over, but let's switch it round; is The Force itself overpowered in how it manifests in Rey, compared to how the Force has manifested in earlier films?

Someone in the cave mentioned that Yoda and Obi-Wan should have just told Luke to say "the force" in battle with Darth Vader. I couldn't resist retorting that that's pretty much how Obi Wan tells Luke to destroy the Death Star.

But let's have the conversation. Has the force changed in nature in the ST? How so?

 

I don't think the nature of the force has changed, but I do think how it's presented and used will continue to evolve. We used to think, because we didn't know any better, that only Jedi's and Sith could use the force. We now know that there are lots of ways to use the force. We have been seeing a small window into the galaxy and I think it's about to expand big time.

 

as posted in the cave in replay to Luke being taught that lesson by Obi-wan in ANH
i guess Luke was just not smart enough to do it again on cloud city.

 

I'd go with this. To me, the force has always evolved in a fairly fluid way from episode to episode (and in TCWand Rebels too). Equally, there don't appear to me that many strict rules in terms of what *can't* happen. And I certainly see no direct or explicit contradiction in how the Force manifests in Rey compared to previous movies and I think within TFA it is clearly mapped out as well.

Rey is a nobody who IS special (and this may be because she is a somebody). That is kind of the whole point of her arc and perhaps the film.

Kylo Ren is also not Darth Vader, nor is the context of the Bespin Duel a direct parallel with the Snow duel. And Rey's journey with the Force (and the existence that forged her) is as different from Luke's as Anakin's was.

 

No need for the sulky tone of the reply - Luke not doing it again on cloud city is, for me, because he is dealing with a Sith Lord at the height of his powers who is in full control of the situation, possesses knowledge Luke doesn't have, and knows how to deploy it to cause the most turmoil to Luke; Luke is also explicitly warned that he isn't ready to face Vader. That'd be the Vader who is referred to on screen in TFA as someone that Kylo Ren wants to become as powerful as, but knows he isn't. So Rey is facing an entirely different enemy, "levelled", if you like, to be not a complete and utter mismatch for Rey and her mysterious powers.

So let's deal with the actual issue you raised, which is about the nature of the force; a novice Luke was told to use the Force instead of a targeting computer, did so, let the Force guide him and succeeded in doing something that all the other rebels except Luke felt was impossible (Luke thought it was possible as he had, in less extreme circumstances, bulls eyed small creatures on tattooine)
A novice Rey, after spending a good period of the film rejecting the call of The Force, allowed herself to meditate briefly and let the force in, and her fighting skill was supplemented significantly in doing so (the fighting skill that we'd already seen a bit of as she fought off several creatures larger and stronger than her, earlier in the film)

So, remembering that we're talking about the force, how is it different?

 

I wish we'd seen some examples on screen of ways in which the ability to use the force actually manifested in the PT

 

Well, we no longer have the idea that the dark side is just the quick, easy, seductive one.

The light side also has a seductive call, whilst the dark side is something you have to master in its own right.

 

Interesting. I kind of am working on the basis that the call to the light that he feels is actually Anakin calling to him - the irony being that as he is talking to Vader's mask asking for guidance to avoid the light, it's actually Vader's true self calling him to the light.

 

Possibly! I do like the idea of an irate Anakin tearing his hair out as he tries to reach him.

My take would be that Kylo's sensation/experience of the light side is very associated with his abandoned family: I don't think it's a coincidence that him begging Vader's mask for a demonstration of the dark side comes directly after the mention of Han and the prospect of being brought into contact with him again.

 

I think you could be onto something here.

In the OT we get a vague, mystical sense of the Force.

In the PT we get a scientific explanation for how Force Users can tap into it. We also learn that the Jedi are losing their ability to connect to the Force, largely due to the growing power of the dark side. We also learn that the Force is so out of Balance that the Force itself gives birth to Anakin Skywalker - a Chosen hero who will ultimately bring balance to the Force.

In TFA we learn that balance has yet to be achieved because the Jedi have not yet returned (for reasons not clear yet). We also know that there has been an awakening and that for some reason, (the light side of) the Force is calling out to Rey (via Luke's lightsaber no less).

It seems to me the Force is still trying to achieve Balance - what we see in TFA seems like a fair evolution of this.

In terms of specifics, we've known from Ben Kenobi's first lesson on the Falcon that the Force can control one's actions as well as obeying one's commands. Given Luke can deflect laser bolts whilst blind after two attempts, I struggle to see why Rey's nascent powers are that out there given we are told there has been an awakening and the Force is calling her for some reason.

 

Obi-wan was talking and guiding Luke at the end of ANH. Who was guiding Rey at the end of TFA in her duel?

 

That's your distinction?

 

I think that the force being self taught is a big distinction.

 

That's a very good way of putting it.

I guess what remains to be seen is whether is a Skywalker, or a Random that the Son of the Chosen One must guide to do this.

 

I just don't buy that the force would make you a better light saber duelist just by embracing it. If it's that simple does it mean she just has to do that every time she duels? When she's facing an opponent next time and she loses, won't people say why didn't she just say the magic word again and became this superfighter?

 

It wasn't saying the word that made her powerful. It was Kylo mentioning the force that made her realise that the force was something she was actually able to tap into.
If you don't buy that the Force can make you a better duellist, then you don't buy the concept of the force, because making people a better fighter through meditation is exactly what the force is shown to do, from Qui Gon kneeling in front of the energy doors to stay focused before fighting Maul, all the way up to the other extreme of Luke being clumsy and awkward as he attempts in vain to bat away debris that Vader is throwing towards him in ESB.

Quite simply, "using the force" has been shown again and again to be something that people who are strong with the force can do relatively easily

 

Exactly. The only difference is that when Kylo says the Force, Rey remembers Maz's wisdom vs Luke hearing Ben, disembodied voice. Luke does receive a more hands on lesson, sure, but equally, Rey is exposed to the raw Force and through it, contact with Yoda and Obi-Wan in a more direct way than Luke ever was.

Luke is the son of a great Jedi and we are told the Force is strong with him. We are *shown* Rey is an innate match for the grandson of the Chosen One during the interrogation scene then told she is stronger in the Force than she knows, and that her powers are growing by the minute as she tests them.

And again, we know the force is calling to Rey and can guide one who lets the Force in.

There is zero direct contradiction with any thing from the previous movies or within TFA itself IMO.

 

to me Qui-Gon was trying to keep calm when he was Meditating during the Maul duel. If he was asking the force's help with fighting Maul it didn't come through for him like it did for Rey.

 

And the mystery is one that we know is set up as a mystery, too.

The discussion of how Rey is so powerful is akin to someone asking after watching the first half of episode two why it is that Anakin is being so combative to his master.

 

If Luke can block blasters with his eyes closed, I don't see it as a stretch that someone who can already fight can be guided by the force (BTW this facet is set up in ANH - and Anakin is guided by the Force to blow up the droid control ship) to triumph over an overconfident, wounded opponent who is not trying to kill her and is not expecting her to channel the power that she does when she lets the Force in.

The fact is George came up with the idea that the Force can control your actions as much as it obeys your commands.

There is also a huge difference between QGJ vs Maul and Rey vs Kylo.

 

"you mean it controls your actions?"

'Partly, but it also obeys your commands"

The Force explained simply and concisely in ANH. In TFA the force controlled Reys actions once she allowed it to