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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST That's Not How The Force Works... (or is it?)

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by CEB, Mar 29, 2016.

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  1. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 12, 2016


    Okay, may I respectfully make my case here?

    In TFA, Rey's experience with the Force includes the Force vision on Takodana, managed to prevent Kylo Ren from using the Force to block his mind probe (albeit not right away) and turns the probe back on him, mind tricks the stormtrooper, telekinetically grabs the lightsaber, and makes a Force connection to win the duel. For the sake of argument, I'm going to assume that the first in this list is only the Force and nothing she was doing (beyond having medi-chrorians and thus being open to receiving it), esp. since Maz (a fellow Force-sensitive) specifically points out that Rey is being called.

    Fact one: Jedi mind tricks only work on weak-minded people (A New Hope) and mind probes can be resisted even by non-Force users (Star Wars: The Clone Wars episode "Children of the Force), which is not seen as unusual (A New Hope).

    Fact two: Force-sensitive individuals are able to unconsciously use Force abilities without any training whatsoever, either by fluke or by unintentionally tapping into it (Phantom Menace, Star Wars: Rebels short "Property of Ezra Bridger," Star Wars Rebels episode "Spark of Rebellion," et al).

    Fact three: Jedi mind tricks are a rookie level skill that beginning level Padawans are taught (Star Wars: Rebels episode "Homecoming"). We also have zero knowledge on the prerequisites needed or not needed to perform this feat and one canonical example that it is possible to use untrained (The Force Awakens).

    Fact four: Telekinesis can be self-taught without any formal training (Star Wars: Rebels episode "Droids in Distress," Heir to the Jedi) and pulling lighthsabers from the ground to the user's hand can be effectively used by the novice (The Empire Strikes Back).

    Fact five: Opening one's self to the Force is a first lesson thing (A New Hope) and something that Rey was already told how to do.

    Finally, and this I will admit is subjective, but the comments about Rey's Force potential ("She's strong with the Force! Untrained, but stronger than she knows!" "She's just beginning to test her powers. The longer she's free, the more dangerous she becomes.") lead me to think that she's going to be an above average Force user, so I think it kind of makes sense that she's had a pretty good first day.

    So, the reason I'm insisting on my position? The basis of the opposing argument is that she's doing stuff that cannot be done untrained. I'm only pointing out that, no they are done untrained. That's the way the franchise has worked. It's like trying to argue that Ben Kenobi didn't have a blue saber.
     
  2. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    A case made pretty well. I was already erring on your side in sentiment, fair play for backing it up. Only thing I'd disagree with is that "OP" is still subject to other people's feelings about how powerful any given character should be, with or without reasons for it - and that a lot of people will dismiss Rebels out of hand as being too tonally distinct to be meaningful(though I like rebels myself, I do sometimes find it hard to imagine it as taking place within the same universe as the films)
     
  3. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    I would say - what does the force usage in TFA explicitly contradict in the previous films?
     
  4. Dagobah Dragonsnake

    Dagobah Dragonsnake Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 7, 2016
    In all seven saga episodes, only once have I heard "That's not how the Force works." Actually that is from a non-Force user. I also do not recall any Ecumenical Force Council codifying it's characteristics and attributes. How powerful or adept any one character is, that is up to the storytellers. After all is put together, you buy in, or you do not buy in. So far, I am fine and actually want to see the envelope pushed a bit more if it adds to the story and experience, without it getting blatantly bizarre.
     
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  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
  6. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 3, 2016
    I really dislike the whole "temptation of the Light" part of the story involving Ben. It makes no sense. Isn't the point of the Force that the Light Side is the most difficult to master and draw power from and the Dark Side being the easy path to power that pays a heavy price upon the user in the form of Dark Side degradation?
     
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  7. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 23, 2003
    Curious, where do you get that idea from, Dark Side degradation?

    If you buy into the notion that someone good can be tempted to do a bad thing, why can't you buy a bad person tempted to do something good? It's classic yin and yang.
     
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  8. Cantina Regular

    Cantina Regular Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 24, 2016
    I still don't get why people hate on Rey's realization during her duel with Ben. She literally spent her life under a rock thinking all this jedi stuff was fairy tales. It'd be like any of us being told the Force is actually real in our reality, and better yet we can use it! I saw it as Rey remembering what Maz told her 'it's always been there, the light' and Rey finally accepted it and let it take control. No different from Luke destroying the death star or Anakin podracing


    BUT the thought did occur to me that maybe this 'awakening' that Snoke felt was the nature of the Force changing and Finn saying "we'll use the Force" was a nod towards it
     
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  9. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 3, 2016
     
  10. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    Dark Side degradation was an EU idea that as far as I know, has not been re-canonized, though someone has mentioned that it arguably makes an appearance in the Lando comics.

    Or rather, it was an idea that Lucas seemed to imply existed, that the EU ran with, then Lucas ditched the idea.

    As far as the temptation towards the light, I don't think it contradicts anything, but I can see why it's a bit jarring.

    In the OT, Yoda said the dark side would forever dominate one's destiny. And it was portrayed as something hard to resist, like it was addictive. Palpatine tried to get Luke to fall and join him merely by giving him a taste of its power by provoking him to anger.

    It was supposed to be something incredibly hard to resist. Yet, Ben is the opposite in that he finds it difficult to resist the "call" of the light side. He finds it harder to stay on the "easy path" which IS a bit awkward. This isn't as simple as doing a good vs bad thing. It's doing a bad thing and then getting that behavior rewarded via power through a supernatural entity. Hence the eyes turn yellow. These people aren't rational. Or haven't been portrayed as such. Look how Anakin gets arrogant and crazy after killing his peers.

    But I guess it would have to do with his motive for falling. Anakin fell to save his wife, then after his failure, hated himself for having been weak and dissociated himself from the name Anakin. He hated Obi-Wan for what he had done to him, he hated himself for being weak, etc. Power started to motivate him.

    We don't really know what drives Ben at this point. Why is he so insistent on clinging to the Dark Side, when there's obviously that part of him that feels wrong about it all?

    There was the good side in Vader that Vader just suppressed. Kylo on the other hand doesn't seem as successful in suppressing his conscience. He seems to want to go back to his family and find peace there, but there's the other side that clings to Snoke. Whether it's out of fear, or for power, etc. We don't really know.

    Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
     
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  11. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 3, 2016

    My problem with Ben is that it's hard to consider what exactly would have driven him over the edge. There is no way that he could have possibly have had the kind of experiences Luke and Anakin had. Even in comparison to other Sith Lords in Legends or canon. The Galactic Civil War ended when he was born and there was no significant conflict until his betrayal of the Jedi Order and the New Republic.

    With that being considered, this quote from Wookiepedia doesn't fill me with confidence.

    "He was born after the Battle of Endor to PrincessLeia Organa and GeneralHan Solo, whose tumultuous marriage left Ben with feelings of abandonment."


    Seriously? I mean...really?
     
  12. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    I don't know that they'll ever really touch on it. They'll probably keep it vague like they had done with Vader pre-PT. All we knew was that he was once a good man seduced by Palpatine to the Dark Side and that he helped wipe out the Jedi.

    That's basically all we know of Kylo.

    I don't think they'll get into the reason he fell other than "there's too much Vader in him."

    He seems to have a particular beef with Luke. Snoke seemed content to destroy BB-8 if it could not be captured, but Kylo was adamant he find the map to Luke. Hux warns Kylo early in the movie not to let this personal motive get in the way of Snoke's command. But we don't really know what happened between the two.

    TFA seems to model itself heavily off the OT, not the PT. In the PT we are given a reason for Vader turning. He gets tempted by promises that he can save his wife from death with the Dark Side.

    Luke on the other hand gets tempted almost like the Dark Side is a drug.

    "The hate is swelling in you now. You, like your father, are now mine!" - Palpatine

    "I am defenseless. Take your weapon, strike me down with it. Give into your anger. With each passing moment, you make yourself more my servant."

    "Your hate has made you powerful. Now, fulfill your destiny, and take your father's place at my side!"

    In the PT, there was motive for Anakin to pledge himself to the Dark Side and to start doing things he really didn't want to do. After the PT, it's hard (IMO) to go back and watch the OT and think that Luke would pledge himself to Palpatine and betray all his friends, and doom them all to death, just because he got angry and killed his father in anger. But that's what we're meant to believe. That giving into hate in itself creates an addiction of power. Nothing really rational about it.

    Since TFA and presumably the new trilogy are modeled closer to the OT, I'm guessing it's going to be more straight forward like this, that he's essentially like a drug addict.

    That events in his life have made him angry and he got addicted and fell. That unlike Vader, he wasn't turning for some misguided attempt to help someone.

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  13. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 3, 2016

    I always thought that Palpatine was trying to demoralize him in the face of a hopeless battle so that he would see that becoming his apprentice would be the way to save himself and others. It's just that Luke has a far stronger will than Anakin's. It was Luke's upbringing in comparison to Anakin's that allowed him to make the choice to throw his weapon to the ground and stay true to his ideals.

    As for the strict adherence to the OT from the ST...I don't know how to feel about that. It just seems like they're taking advantage of all the PT hate to justify their lack of ambition. I think that TFA is the film that I've seen the least so far. I saw it first two days after the premiere and two days after that with a friend. Contrary to other people's experience, this film utterly bored me the second time and felt like it was insulting my intelligence the first time. It's not like I was expecting to not like it either.
     
  14. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 12, 2016
    I'm guessing that the exacts of Kylo Ren's fall have yet to be told (whether we're shown it happening, or have it only described). For what it's worth, we do know from the novelizations that Snoke was literally working to corrupt him from the day he was born, so we do have a starting point, of sorts.
     
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  15. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Luke's attachment to his friends and his feelings of inferiority drive him as much as it did his father. He goes to Cloud City to rescue his friends after having visions of them in danger, much like Anakin going to Tatooine after seeing his mother in a similar plight. The Sith use the threat of the Death Star to motivate Luke to fight and Vader even threatens Leia, which is the straw the breaks the camel's back.

    So yes, attachments were there in the OT. It's just spelled out more clearly in the PT.
     
  16. JabbatheHumanBeing

    JabbatheHumanBeing Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jul 14, 2015

    Right. And the difference between Luke and Anakin (PT) is that Luke ultimately rejects the Emperor's "appeal to his attachments" and throws down his lightsaber. In that moment, by not striking down the Emperor, Luke was effectively leaving his friends to their fate. This is, for whatever reason, one of the least understood moments in the OT.
     
  17. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    Not only is that important to the end of ROTJ, but it's potentially important to Luke's mindset in TFA and future films. He effectively recognised that use of the power to save people could lead to him becoming the thing he destroyed.

    There's a big part of me that suspects that Luke's exile is partly out of a wish that force knowledge should die with him, and that that decision was galvanised when Ben turned on him. I think he will take some persuading, or will only embrace the force again under duress, initially at least
     
  18. Saga_Symphony

    Saga_Symphony Force Ghost star 4

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    Oct 30, 2010
    The scene doesn't really read that way, IMO. It feels more like Luke realizing he was becoming like Vader. And I think it's easy enough to believe that Luke felt his friends and the Rebel Alliance were already doomed at that point after hearing Palpatine brag about it.
     
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  19. JabbatheHumanBeing

    JabbatheHumanBeing Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jul 14, 2015
    It reads just like that, given Palpatine's words. Unlike Luke's "failure in the cave," he rejects his weapon, his anger, and his desire to save his friends through that anger and through that weapon (or at least, he controls his anger at his friends being doomed). Despite his despair, he rejects his darkside impulses. And "attachment" is a huge part of that.
     
  20. Saga_Symphony

    Saga_Symphony Force Ghost star 4

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    Oct 30, 2010
    ^Yeah, I get that. I got it the first time you said it. And it's an interesting interpretation. I'm just saying that's not how it feels to me.

    The Emperor: "Take your father's place at my side". Luke sees he just cut off his father's hand, then looks at his own. That's when he stops and tosses his weapon away.

    But I wouldn't think it strange if Luke got something out of his experiences in the OT and afterwards, and learned how attachments can be dangerous.
     
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  21. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Luke's epiphany at the end of ROTJ is not only to deny the Sith but also to defy Yoda and Ben. After all, it is Ben who tells Luke that his refusal to kill his father means that the Emperor has already won. Not only that, but the galaxy's last hope was for him to carry this out.

    Luke's solution invokes the compassion that ultimately empowers Vader to defy his Master. A virtue that had been hitherto seen, and lately misinterpreted, as a weakness.

    In short, Luke and his father's attachment to each other defied both their masters, for the greater good.

    (first post)
     
  22. JediMatteus

    JediMatteus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Sep 16, 2008
    I like that explanation. and Martoto77, welcome to the boards!!
     
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  23. JabbatheHumanBeing

    JabbatheHumanBeing Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jul 14, 2015

    I think he defies Obi-Wan, but not Yoda. Obi-Wan strongly implies that Luke must kill Vader, but Yoda states that Luke needs to simply confront him, not kill him. Indeed, Yoda was pretty explicit about Luke's failure in the cave being due to his impulse to kill Vader (and his decision to take a weapon of violence into the cave with him).

    So Luke ultimately learns from the wiser of the two wise men: Yoda.
     
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  24. Conkhead_12

    Conkhead_12 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Jul 28, 2016
    If Luke killed Vader he's still no match for Sidious. With no Anakin to help him out, the emperor would win.

    So if Luke kill Vader, Emperor wins
     
  25. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 12, 2016

    I doubt either Yoda, Ben, or Luke figured that the final encounter would happen in front of the Emperor.
     
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