ST That's Not How The Force Works... (or is it?)

Then they should be. The only way to get rid of the Empire is to get rid of Sidious. If you don't get rid of Sidious he will eventually come back and kill you.

 

Probably, though it's possible Yoda saw a vision of such a future. Which would add another layer to why he felt Luke's impulse to kill Vader in the cave was the wrong one...On ethical and practical grounds.

 

Yoda did send Obi Wan to kill Anakin though. He tells Luke that only a fully trained Jedi can defeat Vader and his Emperor. He also says that he won't be a Jedi until he confronts Vader again.

I don't think Yoda was the wiser of the two. He was just better at being vague enough to appear to have been right all along in hindsight.

 

No, it seems very clear to me that Yoda was not proposing that Luke kill Vader. That would contradict his words to Luke both before he entered the cave, and afterwards. Yoda suggested that bringing a weapon into the cave was unwise, and then flatly stated that Luke failed his test in the cave. And what did Luke do in the cave? He struck down Vader in anger.

If Yoda wanted Luke to do just that, why would he describe it as a failure?

Furthermore, citing Yoda's actions in the PT is irrelevant. He was a different character then. His words in ESB and ROTJ are what matter, and he quite clearly was not driving Luke to kill his father.

 

I don't believe what Yoda said in the PT is irrelevant, even if he did change his mind about killing Anakin when it was Luke's turn to confront him. You have to consider everything.

When Luke speaks to Ben after Yoda dies,. Ben doesn't seem to correct Luke when he says he can't kill his father. He first.tells him that Yoda and he would be with him and then that the Emperor has won if Luke can't go through with it.

The failure that Yoda mentions is Luke's lack of faith in the force and his readiness to attack. Not that Vader should not be killed, although he may have felt it would be possible to avoid it.

Yoda's intentions are ambiguous in the OT, at best. I can only go by what he specifically tells people must be done.

 

when did yoda change his mind?

 

We're debating that. If Luke's training is for him to not fight or kill Vader then he must have changed his mind since he ordered Obi Wan to do just that in Revenge of The Sith.

 

they said he must face vader but they mean kill. "destroy the sith we must." they never changed their mind on that. that was what they thought luke had to do. they didn't think vader could come back. only luke did.

 

Yup.
Luke: "I can't kill my own father."
Obi-Wan: "Then the Emperor has already won."

And nothing Yoda says is at odds with what Obi-Wan says... they are in agreement on everything they say to Luke in the OT. The only time they appear to disagree at all is when Yoda initially says that Luke is too old to begin the training.

 

In that case, why is Luke's action in the cave a "failure" in Yoda's eyes? Because he inadvertently did violence against himself? That's fine, as Luke not realizing he's fighting his inner self is a perfectly valid lesson. But I think Yoda's words, in part, suggest that it was a failure because Luke's instinct was to violently attack Vader.

 

I think whatever Yoda said Luke failed at was pretty vague. He was told he would not need his weapon, but he ignored that. Having the weapon on him meant Luke was already predisposed to use it, whether the force guides him too or not. I don't event think that Yoda knew exactly what Luke would encounter in that cave. He just sensed that Luke should not enter it looking for a fight. At the scene's conclusion Yoda's reaction is one of told you so but also mixed with a little bit of "hmm, that's interesting".

Yoda knew that, in his present state, Luke would be unable to resist Vader. I don't think that he was worried he would replicate his actions in the cave and defeat Vader.

Taking his weapon with him to confront Vader did not, ultimately, mean that Luke failed in ROTJ either. Luke's proclamation that he is Jedi in that climax is as much an acknowledgement that he can destroy Vader as much as it is a rejection of the notion that he must kill him. A notion which had been proposed to him by Obi Wan earlier, and to Obi Wan by Yoda earlier still. I agree that Yoda is less didactic than he was to Obi Wan about killing Vader, but I don't believe that Yoda was trying to tell Luke unequivocally not to kill Vader. If he was then why was Luke still so sure that this what's expected of him which is immediately confirmed to him by Ben?

 

I think Luke "failed" in the cave because he ignored Yoda's advice; "only what you take with you" means your mental preparation, expectations, and emotional baggage just as much as it means your physical objects. But to cover that part as well, Yoda made it clear: "your weapons - you will not need them". But Luke took them in anyway. He saw a vision of himself in Vader's helmet far before he was ready to know what it all meant.

Likewise, Yoda's concern about Luke rushing off to Cloud City was not that he went... it was when he went. He was not ready. Yoda tells him that he must honor what his friends fight for, but also flatly tells Luke that he is not ready to face Vader. He tells him he needs to complete his training, and warns him that facing Vader now could end up with him turning to the dark side. But he also says that "only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor." Nothing about killing Vader never being the goal, just that now is not the time for Luke to try. And later, when he sees Luke again in ROTJ, he rubs it in and basically tells him "I told you so!".

 

The force is like any skill. There are those who are naturals and there are those who have aptitude to still do well. In the new movies, I believe the Force is being developed into a power for everyone....but harnessed well by just a few. The OT...all the time, everyone is telling everyone else...may the force be with you....and they weren't speaking to Jedi...they were talking to common folk. So the idea is that the Force can intervene at will or untrained or lesser trained individuals can use the force to some degree. Or...all those folks were just hoping that the force would shine on them?? naw...they are just getting back to the root of it...that everyone has a varying degree of force sensitivity.

 

If anyone can use the Force, then why did the Old Republic Jedi look for Force-sensitive kids? That kind of suggests that only specific people can bend the spoons.

Also, how did TFA indicate that anyone could use the Force? As far as I could tell, it worked the same as it always had.

 

The force and the user's consciousness of it has always been rather esoteric. Through experience, the Jedi order's sensitivity to those with potential allowed them to identify candidates for Jedi training., This would enable them to enhance and nurture the abilities of people who, left to their own devices or in ordinary circumstances might never have realised a fraction of that potential. But also, it allows the Jedi order to control that potential and to maintain ownership of the narrative.

 

Anyone may have the ability to use the force, but some have a far greater amount of sensitivity than others. Think about it in real world terms - we all have the ability to play sports, but there are some who have an elite level of talent that we don't all have. When they combine that elite talent with years of hard work, training, and experience, they may become a professional athlete. You can take an average person that doesn't have elite talent, but if they work hard, and get some coaching and experience, they might get really good at a sport. However they probably wouldn't be able to become a professional without that combination of elite talent and the hard work.

When the jedi were looking for "force-sensitive children" they were looking for kids that had elite level talent. The idea of midichlorians was looked at poorly by many, but it really fits in with everything else Lucas showed in how the force works. A child with a high midichlorian count is a kid with elite level talent, and when trained by the jedi they would have the chance of becoming a jedi themselves. Some had more talent then others, and some made up for "deficiencies" in their talent through hard work and other attributes they had.

Here's a great video from YouTube blogger the Urban Acolyte talking about this idea, based on canon.


In terms of where are we seeing this info in the new canon, I think it is all over the place. Dave Filoni has talked about this very idea on a few occasions, and we've seen it in Star Wars Rebels with Zeb's people using the force but calling it something different, in Clone Wars with the nightsisters and with the Dagoyan Masters using the force but calling it something different. Then you have Maz Kanata and Lor San Tekka in TFA and Chirrut in Rogue One all believing in the force and maybe being able to use it to a degree, but not being jedi. All of this agrees with the original trilogy in that you see non jedi saying "May the Force be with us" throughout.

 

The force isn't for everyone to wield, never was, never will be. When people say "may the force be with you," it's like saying "may god be with you." The force has a will of its own, and is demonstrated by the light side and the dark side. There is a constant battle between the two sides. When someone in the OT says "may the force be with you," they are essentially saying they hope it is the will of the force for whatever action they are about to take to succeed. For instance, saying it before the attack on the first Death Star, they are essentially saying, "may this be the will of the good side of the force, and may you have the strength to see it done."

In a GFFA the people believe in the force. They believe it controls all things, and all fate is decided by its will. Just because some people can hear the will of the force better than others (Jedi) doesn't mean they are the only ones affected by it.

 

Yoda's suggestion of Leia's potential as the galaxy's last hope, after Luke, makes who can use the force and when less than clear cut. He's reluctant and skeptical about Luke's suitability, partially due to his age (although he had plenty of opportunity send for him while he was growing on Tatooine. If he was the last hope, why wait until he's too old to be trained.)

Prior to this, there is no indication given that Leia has specific attributes or any peculiar qualities that would attract formal Jedi training to hone them. There is clearly no urgency to train her either. Purely because of her family links is it considered that she would be the last hope. But she's not considered strongly enough to train yet.

For Yoda to declare her a candidate indicates that in "reality" , someone with potential can be trained at any time. From the jedi order's point of view, it has always been best to nurture and control that potential from an early age or before an individual discovers and intuits those powers by themselves..

The possibility that someone's force powers can emerge without prior initiation or formal induction into jedi training and dogma does not mean that just anyone can wield the force or that it is for everyone.

 

Here's some tweets from Pablo Hidalgo from a few days ago which support the theory that the force is something anyone has the potential to use, just to varying degrees depending on their amount of force sensitivity. His example of Bruce Lee is the same as what I state above about professional athletes. They were born with elite talent, and combined that with years of hard work and training to become exceptional.

https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo?lang=en

Pablo Hidalgo ‏@pablohidalgo Sep 11
1/ Head's up. Incoming tweetflood full of unsolicited views about the Force. About 14 or 15 tweets. Bear with me.

Pablo Hidalgo ‏@pablohidalgo Sep 11
2/ A colleague of mine recently stated that everyone has and uses the Force. Which raised questions in some, but it's nonetheless true.

Pablo Hidalgo ‏@pablohidalgo Sep 11
3/ The Force is life. If you've ever felt a moment of connection with another or your world, you're using it. That's the idea.

Pablo Hidalgo ‏@pablohidalgo Sep 11
4/ You can disbelieve in it, but still have it. I'm sure Ol Ben would attribute Han's amazing piloting & "luck" to the Force. Han wouldn't.

Pablo Hidalgo ‏@pablohidalgo Sep 11
5/ For gamers, note that I think every incarnation of the RPG gave Force Points to everyone, regardless of "Force-sensitivity"

Pablo Hidalgo ‏@pablohidalgo Sep 11
6/ Eg. we would cite is Bruce Lee. In our world, he would be someone more attuned to the Force than most, hence his remarkable abilities.

Pablo Hidalgo ‏@pablohidalgo Sep 11
7/ It's not just physical abilities. Those who can sway large numbers of people for good or for bad are tapping into a connectivity.

Pablo Hidalgo ‏@pablohidalgo Sep 11
8/ I can see the case made that exceptional minds of all kinds - Einstein, Hawking, Newton - are tapping into a world most can't see.

Pablo Hidalgo ‏@pablohidalgo Sep 11
9/ I think people understandably got caught up in the whole midi-chlorian thing. They thought you must have X no. of midis to use the Force.

Pablo Hidalgo ‏@pablohidalgo Sep 11
10/ No, the midi-prereq was to enter the prequel-era Jedi Order. It's a rather soulless way to look at potential, by narrative design.

Pablo Hidalgo ‏@pablohidalgo Sep 11
11/ The prequel Jedi have systemized their methods at the expense of spirituality and intuition. They are more 'Order' than 'Jedi.'

Pablo Hidalgo ‏@pablohidalgo Sep 11
12/ Characters like Jocasta Nu and Ki-Adi-Mundi embody that. Others like Dooku, Qui-Gon and Anakin don't.

Pablo Hidalgo ‏@pablohidalgo Sep 11
13/ But there's more to the Force than just Jedi/Sith. There's more to potential than midis. Just like there's more to genius than grades.


Pablo Hidalgo ‏@pablohidalgo Sep 11
1/ Predictable misread of what I said before about Bruce Lee. "Oh so he didn't train and was just lucky to have this ability." The hell?

Pablo Hidalgo ‏@pablohidalgo Sep 11
2/ Exceptional people work VERY HARD to hone the talents they've been given. Don't think otherwise. It might make you look small.

Pablo Hidalgo ‏@pablohidalgo Sep 11
3/ This "gifts" aren't free. They have to be worked at to be unlocked. And typically end up complicated lives.


Pablo Hidalgo Retweeted

Derek ‏@dja17 Sep 11
@pablohidalgo I always think of the Force as the SW equivalent of chi. Everyone has it, some are just more attuned than others.

 

Is this stuff considered canon, though, or just Mr. Hidalgo's opinion?

It doesn't really mesh that well with the movies (IMHO).

 

I think it meshes pretty well with the movies, and actually builds on them in a way that is intelligent and probably needs to be done for there to be a future for Star Wars. The idea that focusing on midichlorians is a failing of the PT era Jedi order is quite a creative subtle rethink of what has been seen as a mis-step, but it makes perfect sense

 

Why? (It doesn't really make sense to me, since I always took even the old movies as showing that only select people could use the Force.)

 

Maybe by the end of the ST, the Force will be available to everyone? It's like...health care!

Political metaphors man.

 

I wouldn't take tweets themselves as canon on it's own. BUT Pablo Hidalgo's opinion holds a TON of weight. That opinion is based on his conversations with George Lucas, the rest of the story group, and the writers and directors of all of the new canon. He is the person in charge of what is canon and what isn't canon. So his tweets give us some strong insight into the meaning of what we are seeing on the screen.

I think it meshes PERFECTLY with the movies, and also is a good explanation for some things that may have been seen as inconsistencies within canon. You mentioned that you took the old movies as showing that only select people could use the force. That's partially correct. More specifically, the old movies showed only select people using the force, and never said that others could NOT.

In the original trilogy we had explanations of the force from both Kenobi and Yoda. Kenobi said "It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us. It penetrates us." Yoda said "For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship."

So the force was described as something that is created by all life and flows through all life. All around us and within us. Us not just being Jedi, but all living things.

In the prequels we get the further explanation of midichlorians. The Jedi even had a blood test to determine what a person's midichlorian count was. The midichlorians were never described as BEING the force, but as micro organisms that allow a person to communicate with the force. The midichlorian count really just put a number on what someone's force sensitivity was. Which means that force sensitivity was not a black and white thing with some people "having the force" and others not "having the force". That count was just a way for them to have an idea of how strong a person's connection with the force had the potential of being.

According to the Wookieepedia canon article on midi-chlorians, they live in the cells of ALL living beings.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Midi-chlorian

According to Qui-Gon in The Phantom Menace, "Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force. When you learn to quiet your mind, you'll hear them speaking to you."

So is we know that the force is in all living things, and we also know that midichlorians allow a person (to varying degrees) speak to and use the force, and we know that midichlorians are also in all living beings, then there is noone who can't "use the force". The key thing to remember is the varying degrees - most people in Star Wars probably had midichlorian counts so low that they were effectively not sensitive to the force at all. They didn't have any of the "elite level talent" that I mentioned up above. But I would think that even those people, if trained and if they worked hard, could develop some force attributes. Because while their sensitivity may be very low, it is still there. The force is still in them and they still have the midichlorians that let them communicate with the force.

When Pablo talks about the prequel Jedi failing with midichlorians, he says it was a rather souless way to look at potential. Think of that as an NFL scout who is obsessed with combine numbers - how fast a player can run, how high they can jump, how much they weigh, how much weight they can lift, etc., but doesn't look at the things that really matter like how they play in games, how hard they work, how well they can pick up a play book etc. The midichlorians were just a physical attribute someone was born with that showed their potential. The Jedi probably ignored some children who had lower midichlorian counts but would have been able to be trained to be great Jedi because of their intangibles.

 

I hope he has a good explanation for Rey using advanced Force powers and defeating Kylo Ren while untrained. His position of training and hard work being more important than genetics don't seem attuned with what we see on screen...