ST That's Not How The Force Works... (or is it?)

I think the "will of the Force" is a bit like a boulder wanting to roll down a hill. There's a natural tendency towards it but no conscious intent as such. It just is.

 

That's a clever analogy! I like it.

 

clinteastwoodbradfield

There is no need to invoke "head canon" because there is no "destiny" in the OT in the way we usually interpret "destiny" (and should there be a TCW retcon revision - I haven't seen all episodes yet, so I don't even know - but which you seem to be aware of then I'm not forced to accept that as "canon").

I saw Darth Maul being cut into two pieces, the screenplay further states he was falling to his death in a melting pit.
TCW saw him resurrected.
Do I have to accept the TCW retcon or can I carry on believing what I saw in TPM?

 

That's your personal interpretation. Also, you're referring to one trilogy while seemingly dismissing the rest.

 

Well you don't have to accept anything for your enjoyment, but when analysing the saga in depth, you need to defer to canon. Personally I think Maul being alive is ridiculous, but that doesn't change that in canon, he's alive

 

Believe what you like, but TCW is canon so Maul didn't die in TPM.

 

He fell to his death... then he killed it

 

Lulu Mars

Of course, I'm refering to the Original Trilogy because that's the one that came first and set the essential standards. But the whole and decisive point is that there is no such thing as a predetermined destiny.

Vader tries to convince Luke he has to follow a certain destiny and so do Yoda and Kenobi. But the whole OT point is that Luke ignores the "destinies" everybody tries to put into his head, which ultimately is the key to him being successful.

 

...and fulfilling his true destiny.

If we're going by what came first, then why not just stick to ANH as a point of reference? After all, TESB and ROTJ both altered people's views of things established in and fundamental to that film.

 

Lulu Mars wrote

If we're going by what came first, then why not just stick to ANH as a point of reference? After all, TESB and ROTJ both altered people's views of things established in and fundamental to that film.

Fine, let's hear your examples where both TESB and ROJ both altered people's views of things established in and fundamental to that film.

 

Well, let's look at the Force giving someone telekinesis and premonitions for starters.

 

Artoo-Dion

Vader choked Admiral Motti with telekinesis during the Death Star conference.

Regarding the premonition aspect it's not entirely clear, but there is a strong hint for that.

How could Vader possibly now that escape is not Kenobi's plan? The only feasible rationalization I can think of is that he has multiple premonitions that all reveal him to meet Kenobi in the same corridor leading to the hangar (otherwise, how could he possibly know where Kenobi would emerge and be there first, too?)

 

Those are actually quite good examples, since everyone did not interpret the choking as telekinesis.
Other examples:

- Vader, Luke's father's murderer, is Luke's father.
- Leia, Luke's close friend and love interest, is his sister.
- The Empire is as powerful and frightening as ever even when the Death Star has been destroyed.

 

Lulu Mars

Your first two examples are story twists. While I'd agree that the first one was a premise change audiences were not remotely expecting, nothing in the first film ever established that Leia couldn't be Luke's sister. Both they and the audience didn't know until ROJ.

Regarding the Empire's continuous strength after the Death Star destruction I will not repeat all the "essays" I've been writing in the parallel thread. For anybody interested here is the thread link: http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...n-how-tfa-follows-in-esbs-footsteps.50039530/

 

Regarding "Escape is not his plan," I always interpreted that as Vader knowing his old master well enough to know why he'd turn up.

 

But there was nothing in the film that remotely suggested that Kenobi hired Solo for the passage to Alderaan with him knowing he'd end up on the Death Star with Vader being present there.

Nevertheless, Vader felt Kenobi's presence in the hangar and very likely vice versa. Undoubtedly Kenobi then decided to confront Vader aboard the Death Star.

 

I'd say all of these things are fairly open to personal interpretation in the end - including what we're actually discussing at the moment, which is destiny.
Throughout the Saga, there's lots of talk about destiny, among Jedi and Sith alike. They all believe in it, but are any of them actually right? That's up for grabs, as far as I'm concerned.
Even the prophecy of the Chosen One and whether or not it was fulfilled in ROTJ has yet to be confirmed/discussed in universe. By the looks of things, it will be brought up in some way ("Without the Jedi, there can be no balance in the Force").
Just wait and see...

 

It was ludicrously far fetched! In order to stop the bolt, Kylo had to marshal an equivalent amount of Force energy in a direction opposite the blaster bolt's path. He had to do this in a exceptionally short period of time. In other words, he had to conjure a "Force bolt" with equivalent energy to a blaster bolt. If he can do that, why does he even carry a light saber? Why not just go around pointing your finger like a pistol and go "pew, pew, pew"?

BTW, I hereby trade mark for all time the concept of "Force bolt".

 

It's almost as far-fetched as shooting lightning from your finger tips.

 

And, what ever happens with the conjured lightning? Is it ever held still in midair?

Also, lightning is really clumsy compared to a Force bolt.

 

"In order to stop the bolt, Kylo had to marshal an equivalent amount of Force energy in a direction opposite the blaster bolt's path."

No, in order to stop the bolt, Kylo had to use the Force, and sense its presence between himself and the blaster bolt, and manipulate the force to hold the bolt there. That's how we're told the Force works.
Remember "size matters not" and "no different - only different in your mind" ? Well, if you're going to get sciencey about it, in practice that means that the use of the force is exactly the same regardless of the mass of the object - so essentially we're already told on screen that being attuned to the force can supersede measurable real-world forces

 

I don't quite know what your point is, but Force Bolt is definitely good coinage.

 

Sure, Star Wars physics is hokey but, it does exist, right? They still need machinery to get past some pretty hefty physical constraints like moving through outer space, etc. No one (so far) has used the Force to travel between planets. Although, I would suppose that in your construction of an anything goes with the Force GFFA, such travel would be possible. It might even be like Force teleportation (another trade mark for me).

But, really, since the sky's the limit here, why not just go full Phoenix and use the Force to break the molecular bonds holding an object together thereby disintegrating it? (Force disintegration, trade mark.) Actually, teleportation would tend to imply disintegration so, those two are probably just related Force powers.

Force bolts are quite benign compared to those.

After all, it's only different in your mind...

 

It seems that your issue is with the concept of The Force rather than with me.

 

^^^"Force Instant Transmission" coming soon