Games The 13th Jedi Draft: Only a Bith Deals in Absolutes. Congrats to our winner. All hail Point Given!

Will have something tonight. Been crazy at work and arguing for 4 this time has been a bit more time consuming

 

Darth Havok / Darth Maladi vs. Darth Talon / Jerec

Darth Havok
- Master with Imperial Knights
- Force Lightning
- Force Illusions
- Telekinesis
- Familiarity with Talon

Darth Maladi
- Force Lightning
- Memory Walk
- Sith Alchemy
- Yuuzhan Vong Bioengineering
- Fought Shado Voa to a standstill

Both are very familiar with Talon's style and abilities. Both survived the fallout of Krayt's little empire. They will work well together as opposed to Talon and Jerec not knowing each other at all. Jerec always struck me as a ball hog, of course Sith and Dark Jedi do that. As far as being nearly as strong as Vader, Tash was very wrong in my opinion.The One Sith duo should take this.


Darth Malak vs. Darth Traya

Malak

- Jedi Guardian (emphasis on lightsaber combat)
- Proficient in:
Sith Sorcery
Force Lightning
Dark Healing
Suppressing the abilities of another Force user.
Creating a whirlwind of Force energy to encircle opponents
Creating stasis field to temporarily freeze opponents
Use the Dark Side to augment speed, strength, etc.
- Took Revan to bring him down

Traya has some interesting abilities, but a man who was trained and fought for Revan, and add in all of his combat experience in various campaigns Malak should have no problem with her.

 

he didn't fight for the sithperor.

 

Thank you and edited.

But it changes nothing. He takes her.

 

And if you listen to KenKenobi, so would any of the three major characters from "The Wonder Years"

 

Especially Winnie.

 

Well, still having internet issues. So I probably won't be able to get args up.

Which sucks, since these are awesome matches. Oh well.

 

On my way home. Computer there has arguments mostly done. Will post as soon as I can.

 

I'm in a judgmental mood, but can be persuaded to wait. I suppose.

 

Okay, borrowed a computer to get these up. They may be a bit jerky as a result, since I have to do everything on the internet rather quickly:

Anya Kuro/Ki-Adi Mundi vs. Tholme/Aayla Secura
This is definetly one of the more interesting trump matches we've had in recent memory. Both sides know each other fairly well, with the glaring exception of the Dark Woman who only Ki-Adi really knows. So, basically, we have prep knowledge (since they all know each other), without the prep time. That just makes the fight even more interesting I think.

Now then...let's compare the Masters first:

Dark Woman has less registered fights than Tholme, I know that much. That being said, I would definetly argue that her experience is qualtively better. Why? Well, Tholme's fights amount to three losses...Quinlan, Sora, and Dooku. In the first case it was because Quinlan pulled out a Cortosis guantlet, the other two he was just outdueled. Tholme even admits as much during the first bout against Sora, saying he 'doesn't have to win' after Sora says he can't.

Kuro, on the other hand, has the ever so impressive fight with Darth Vader, whom I would put above even Dooku. While Tatooine is far from the forest she used to such great effect against Vader, the fact remains that she nearly beat him in that bout. And as I pointed out the last time I made an argument for this trump...she was well into her 100s when she did so. In this fight, she will be at her physical peak, which just means that everything she did there (acrobatics, funky force abilites) is going to be stronger. She won't tire out and lose like she did to Vader.

Now for the other two:

I'll be the first to admit I know next to nothing about Aayla. A quick look through the wook doesn't do much to improve that...or impress me. Yes, she gets up to a lot in the Clone Wars...but how much of that is actually better than your average Jedi? A lot of missions, yes, but the only really impressive things that come to mind are the duel with Ventress (where she had help) the duel with Grevious, and the duel with Aurra Sing.

Come to think of it, Ki-Adi did all of those things too

Anyway though, the thing to remember with all three of those duels is this: only Sing was defeated one-on-one. Secura had help against Ventress (Luminara) and she lost to Grevious. And even her Clone Wars experience isn't as much here...since Ki-Adi has several decades of experience on her.

Ki-Adi, on the other hand, forced Ventress to retreat on his own, and he was the last one standing against Grevious. Which is important, because he survived dueling the General in his uber-first appearence, for several minutes after Grevious had knocked Aayla aside. I'd say that's enough on its own to say that Mundi is the better fighter of the two...leaving aside his much longer experience as a Jedi.

I'd say that put together with the Dark Woman's unorthodx abilities and highly impressive duel against Vader...my Trump has the edge here.

Shaak Ti vs. Leia Organa Solo (prep)
This fight is harder to say really. Leia, while I'd say she hasn't hit her true potential, is a fierce fighter. The same goes for Shaak Ti though, who is an excelent duelist and pushed Galen Marek quite hard in their fight (which is arguably more impressive in the novel oddly).

The prep is obviously helping Leia out, in addition to having more registered duels under her belt. The problem there is, other than Dark Empire...how impressive are her duels? Aleema Rar leaves something to be desired, especially as she was insane to varying extents when Leia fought her...if not outright crippled after DNT. I haven't read FOTJ or Cruicble, so I can't speak on stuff in there though.

Shaak, by contrast, has her duels with Grevious, and the elephant in the room that is Starkiller. That fight alone is more impressive, I think, than anything Leia did...but I could be wrong, as I haven't read DE either and am just going off other args. I'd like to say that Shaak can win even over a prepped Leia...

But it would be a very close bout, and honestly I could see Leia winning too.

Azlyn Rae vs. Bastila Shan (prep)

This, on the other hand, isn't as close I don't think. Why?

Other than her Battle Mediation, which is no use here, how impressive is Bastila really? She wasn't a frontline fighter as much as other Jedi in the Civil War. She was a Padawan with a unique skill that needed to be used outside of close combat. Yes, she was with the team that hit Revan...but we don't know how much of a fight that was aside from a mook Sith/Dark Jedi or two.

Anything else in KOTOR is iffy at best, since canonically we can't say where Bastila was during the many fights Revan got up to. What we can say, is that she lost to Malak trying to hold him off for Revan to escape, and then proceeded to lose against Revan twice (the first time with Jolee and Juhani tossed in the party).

Azyln, by contrast, has a wealth of confirmed experience against the One Sith. She grew up in a war, more so than Bastila did. Rae also has training that Bastila isn't going to expect (her stealth and so forth). I'd take the confirmed experience and potential to pull out fancy tricks, over even a prepped Bastila who really only has her losses against Malak (which we don't see how long she lasts), and Revan (where she doesn't last long if its a half-way competent player).

Quinlan Vos (prep) vs. Ahsoka Tano
This fight happened last draft, and it was a close fight. While I don't have time to go looking back, I think it was because she hung with a lot of quality fighters and so forth. Now, I think that this draft, the same won't happen. Last time around, neither side was prepped and it was still considered an extremely close match. Quinlan is a tough fighter, and a very smart/skilled one at that. Ashoka has impressive feats under her belt, yes. But generally speaking those are fights where she doesn't win, and other events conspire to keep her alive.

That's just waht I've heard anyway since that whole 'hasn't watched TCW' thing is starting to hang over my head like a sword

Quinlan, however, may have less registered fights but they are every bit as impressive. Bulq, Tholme, Kolar, all of them are visually impressive fights. Quinlan pulls some moves and stunts that show just how good of a fighter he is...and he can even pull out some Vaapad if needed. Toss in the prep, and he's going to know everything he needs to know about Ashoka's own abilites and battles...information that gains a respectable edge when one takes into account that Quinlan is a very crafty fighter.

For instance, he could do what he did to Tholme...pull out a Cortosis gauntlet. I can easily imagine what having one of her lightsabers shorting out would do to a relatively inexpereinced Ashoka, especially since Quinlan is fully capable of exploting that edge.

So in this scenario, I see Quinlan winng handily.

(I'm going to say right now that I probably won't be able to get anything else up. Just a heads up)

 

To save time, I'll just incorporate my arguments in with responses for each.

So An’ya and Ki-Adi first. An’ya was Ki-Adi’s “first teacher” but never his actual Master. So, while he certainly learned some things from her, the bulk of his training was under Yoda. It’s not quite the same Master/Apprentice bond like a Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan or Obi-Wan/Anakin. Definite familiarity though. An’ya herself is quite good having managed to nearly survive her duel with Vader. While Ki-Adi really didn’t get much in the way of onscreen fights. Sadly, neither did Aayla. Both pretty much measure up equally on screen. Both end up shot by their own troops. Both display about the same level of skill in the films. Television Wise, both fight Grievous in the old cartoon. Ki-Adi of course survives the longest but needs ARC trooper rescue. Looking at his battle with Ventress in comics, same basically happens with Aayla. Both defeat Ventress. So a bit of a push there. The new series he gets injured early on but survives Geonosis, while Aayla has some nice scenes with Jedi Crash and she later takes on the Zillo beast. So then we move to comics. Ki-Adi was one of the earliest developed characters in the Republic series. He had a few missions, notably he came up against Aurra Sing a couple of times- and ne never defeated her. Likewise, An’ya could never defeat Aurra either. This was back when Aurra was a real threat and not the easily beaten Bounty Hunter that Clone Wars made her into. Back when she was jedi killer. So you can see where I’m going with this. Who defeated Aurra? A’Sharad Hett (going to the dark side to do it) and Aayla- who used the lightside and help from Tholme (he played dead so she wouldn’t be distracted) and defeated her as a jedi should. That of course is one of Aayla’s biggest moments. Tholme on the other hand, we’ve seen him fight against Sora, Dooku and Quinlan. He and An’ya are friends and have known each other for decades. So they know each other’s style. The problem with Ki-Adi is he should be better than he is. But really, if you look at his feats, the best he has is surviving Grievous (now essentially noncanon) and his Geonosis episodes. The comics pretty much dropped him after AOTC and Aayla and Quinlan took center stage. What I think this has to come down to then is the Master and Apprentice bond. And here, Tholme and Aayla have shown theirs to be stronger than Anya and Ki-Adi. Individually, I think An’ya and Tholme nearly cancel each other out. Ki-Adi SHOULD be > than Aayla. But, the proof is more in favor of Aayla and what she endured in the Clone Wars over him. His issues of Republic never show him fighting dark jedi or sith outside of Bentress. Aayla on the other hand was fighting Bok and other Morgukai. And Aayla’s takedown of Aurra is pretty impressive. Ki-Adi meanwhile only survived his encounter with Grievous. And thanks to the new show, Ahsoka does about the same as a young apprentice. So it’s not like this fight can be about who fought who. It has to be about who is the better trump. Aayla and Tholme were apprenticed together for close to 10 years. Ki-Adi and An’ya did not have that. Now Tholme has been in many scrapes and barely survived, but above all else, he is a survivor. The big issue though is that you could break Ki-Adi and An’ya into pre-AOTC and Tholme and Aayla into post-AOTC. And because of that, Aayla benefits more as she simply has more showings than Ki-Adi. Additionally, even if you argue that Aayla needed help- her master is paired with her for that reason. Together, they edge out Ki-Adi and his first teacher.

Leia is a different story compared to the above trumps. We certainly have Alema Rar when Leia was essentially an apprentice. Same for Tahiri and Beldorion. Her saber skills after Saba’s training were just ramped up. As were her skills with the force. As a Master, she is a force to be reckoned with and if one were to look at Crucible as her peak, she’s up there with Luke in terms of power. And early in her training, she helped Luke defeat Palpatine. But Leia’s also a strategist. She was one of the Alliances best minds. She helped formulate some of their strategies going from the films all through the books. She was a crucial part of the NJO when it came to strategy. So, with prep time, she has the time to think and plan on how to defeat Shaak Ti. Leia, like Shaak Ti, is used to war. That said, Leia’s been at it far longer than Shaak Ti. Leia’s also had more victories. And lastly, Leia is a Skywalker. I keep mentioning Crucible as Leia’s peak because in that story, she basically gets blown up and manages to bounce back relatively quick. Few characters have been blown up, shot, sliced, etc. as much as she has and yet she keeps bouncing back. Ben Kenobi has nothing on Leia in the ‘strike me down’ area. And much of that has happened since her training with Saba. While Leia may not have a Barabel’s hide, she’s certainly demonstrated to be as tough and resilient. She’s not going to make an easy opponent for Shaak Ti at all. I just don’t see a scenario where Shaak Ti knocks Leia down and she stays down. Especially with Leia having prep and Shaak Ti having none. Shaak Ti had Galen and Grievous. Leia's gone against tougher. Most recent was Vestera though it's been a while so I can't recall whether that particular duel was one on one or not.

Azyln is in a similar situation with Shaak Ti. Problem is Bastila really does benefit from prep here. And Azyln while she’s a skill Imperial Knight/former Jedi Padawan, Bastila’s skills are formidable as well. She led the party to capture Revan. She was renowned for her Battle Meditation, but here skill with sabers was also very impressive—Satele’s being even more impressive of course. Azyln may have confirmed experience, but her showings are less impressive than Bastila's. And let's not forget that Bastila was capable of dueling Revan, Jolee and Juhani by herself. Or that she held Malak off before eventually being defeated. Aside from stabbing Krayt in the back while he was distracted, I can't recall any big names for Azlyn however. So if it comes to duels, I think Bastila is the superior duelist. If it comes to force powers, even within the short time she was a sith apprentice, Bastila's knowledge of rare sith abilities was impressive - to say nothing of her abilities as a jedi outside of Battle Meditation. Lastly Bastila was a commander of the Jedi forces, she studied with Revan and the other masters of the time. She was, briefly, Malak's pupil. She benefits from all of this knowledge and experience and it will make her a much tougher opponent for an unprepared Azlyn. The prep simply gives her the edge she needs.

In just about any other scenario, I’d see my people losing to a prepped Quinlan Vos (outside of Yoda of course). But the problem with Ahsoka, and the reason I’ve never prepped or trumped her, is that she has been shown to be extremely resilient at situations where she has no time to prepare for anything. As a duelist, she’s extremely skilled, having survived Grievous and Dooku. And she’s taken on and/or defeated opponents like Aurra Sing, Deathwatch and Ventress.
Quinlan has: (going off my memory alone) Volfe Karkko, defeated K’kruhk, stalemated/escaped Agen Kolar, killed his defenseless evil Aunt, lost to Dooku, killed Tol Skorr and Sora Bulq, Killed Faie when wounded. His first (and sadly only) CW appearance had him losing to Cad Bane rather handily. The thing is, I’m not sure what Vos gets preparing for Ahsoka. She’s not going to be an easy one for him to take down. Let's say for example he uses a cortosis gauntlet. Ahsoka has two sabers not one. If one hits the gauntlet, she still has the other. And she's just as skilled with one saber over two. And even if she were unarmed? We've seen her force abilities solo when she was a padawan. By the time she's reached her peak at the end of the series, she's learned even more. Ahsoka does actually have some impressive wins- people that not even Jedi Masters were able to defeat have been wounded/stopped/ or even defeated by Ashoka. The problem for Quinlan is his visual feats aren't as impressive or even as numerous as Ahsoka's thanks to the role she played in the series. All those issues of Republic, and Quinlan has only a few victories of worth to show for it. Ahsoka's a survivor like Quinlan, but she also benefits from a more rounded training. Lest we forget, Quinlan has a bit of memory damage too. So really, the training he can remember, starts around Darkness. It's not quite the decades of Obi-Wan for example. He's a quick learner sure, but Ahsoka has shown herself to be just as quick and very inventive when backed into a corner.

 

This is the sign of a great set of matches...great args.

This was fun Minch.

 

Mikaboshi vs. DarkEagle
Shado Vao vs. Darth Nyriss
Worror Dowmat/Raskta Lsu/Sarro Xaj vs. Galen Marek
Luke Skywalker vs. Kar Vastor
Vodo Siosk-Baas (prep) vs. Kao Cen Darach
Forfeit (Dowmat/Lsu/Xaj) vs. Rahm Kota

Video Game uberness Marek takes down that trump. But not this version.

COH vs. Jordan
Darth Havok/Darth Maladi vs. Darth Talon/Jerec
Darth Malak vs. Darth Traya (prep)
Darth Wyyrlock (prep) vs. Lord Vitiate
Darth Tyranus vs. Forfeit (Talon/Jerec)
Xanatos (prep) vs. Gethzerion

The Havok/Maladi vs Talon/Jerec match is close, and if Talon/Jerec had a real cohesive connection, I might go there way. But I don't see it.
No way was Traya going to win that match.

Skywalker vs. Yodaminch
Anya Kuro/Ki-Adi Mundi vs. Tholme/Aayla Secura
Shaak Ti vs. Leia Organa Solo (prep)
Azlyn Rae vs. Bastila Shan (prep)
Quinlan Vos (prep) vs. Ahsoka Tano
Ferus Olin vs. Satele Shan

I think the fact that both trumps are cohesive, while Aayla is the best individual in the battle gives her and Tholme just enough of an edge.
The Prep makes it for me here. Especially in an active battle scene that can easily be disorienting, just knowing what's ahead can make all the difference.
Bastila is for teams, and that's about it.
Ahsoka is the best Mary Sue character Star Wars ever produced. She's the Rey Mysterio of the Draft.

TLI vs. Whiteeagle
Lord Kas'im vs. Nomi Sunrider
Darth Malgus vs. Ulic Qel-Droma/Cay Qel-Droma
Darth Sidious vs. Lord Hoth
Kaox Krul vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi/Qui-Gon Jinn
Asajj Ventress vs. Mara Jade Skywalker (prep)

Didn't see the one heels marked as up in the air as all that close.

Furio vs. Point Given
Exar Kun (prep) vs. Agen Kolar
Barriss Offee/Luminara Unduli vs. Anakin Skywalker
Sora Bulq/Depa Billaba vs. Tahiri Veila/Anakin Solo
Darth Caedus vs. Ben Skywalker (!!!!)
Lumiya (prep) vs. Antares Draco/Ganner Krieg

Trump/trump isn't all that close. One trump has more skill and much better cohesion. The other trump has better (top end) experience. Not hard to split the difference.
Caedus feels bad slicing Ben, but he does it anyway. And then goes emo goth with his emotions.
The Wicked Witch of the Force is simply too much to handle.

 

Awesome lol

 

agree with inty

 

And computer is back in action. So I shouldn't (in theory) have any more issues with args.

 

Judgments:

left
left
left
right
right

right
draw
right
left
left

left
right
right
right
left

draw
draw
left
left
right

right
left
right
left
draw

 

Yay! I win!

 

You're going to win anyway since I have two forfeits