Discussion in 'EU Community' started by Point Given
, Feb 4, 2011.
Just do it now sissy.
If people want to argue on his behalf, then they can go for it.
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Still better be a joke, though.
and on to teams again. blech.
Amusing as it was, I'm going to switch my earlier decision with Castin and the Forfeit
[stagewhisper]I still think Castin would accidentally crack his skull getting into the cockpit[/stagewhisper]
[hl=darkblue]The Kemba Walker All-Stars (With a Side Dish of Jeremy Lamb) Conference[/hl]
[hl=red]Failing With Style[/hl] (4) vs. [hl=orangered]MmmCheese! Squadron[/hl] (4)
Soontir Fel, Dash Rendar, Inyri Forge, Bror Jace, Voort ?Piggy? saBinring, Castin Donn, Lujayne Forge, Arvel Crynyd vs Maarek Stele, Darth Caedus, Lumiya, Nial Declann, Imperial Ace, Broak Vessery, Erisi Dlari, Gunn Yage
Another easy team match. I choose [hl=orangered]MmmCheese! Squadron[/hl]
[hl=silver]This is my team, Team:[/hl] (5) vs. [hl=silver]Red Rover, Red Rover, Please send Cade over:[/hl] (3)
No need for teams
Old Fossil Squadron (3) vs. [hl=deeppink]Yay Me! Starring Luke Skywalker![/hl] (5)
No need for teams
[hl=blue][color=orange][b]The Holy Crap The Knicks Made The Playoffs And Immediately Got Swept Conference[/b][/color][/hl]
[hl=silver]Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Squadron[/hl] (4) vs. [b][color=white][hl=orange]The Integrity of Bruce Pearl Squadron[/b][/hl][/color] (4)
[b]Tycho Celchu, Pash Cracken, Kasan Moor, Syal Antilles, Jhoram Bey, Anj Dahl, Vindoo "The Shooter" Barvel, Falynn Sandskimmer vs Derek "Hobbie" Klivian, Wes Janson, Biggs Darklighter, Jake Farrell, Horton Salm, Carth Onasi, Peshk Vri?Syk, Plourr Ilo[/b]
[b]I need arguments, and considering this a match with huge playoff implications, you both should argue. Slightly leaning NYJ at the moment[/b]
[b][color=lightblue][hl=white]Attachment is a Jedi Code Violation Squadron[/b][/color][/hl] (4) vs. [hl=burlywood][color=indigo][b](insert clever team name here)[/b][/color][/hl] (4)
[b]Anakin Skywalker, Darth Vader, Anakin Solo, Octa Ramis, Nym, Odd Ball, Ahsoka Tano, Tahiri Veila, vs. Gavin Darklighter, Turr Phennir, Ace Azzameen, Kell Tainer, Rhysati Ynr, Boba Fett, Evir Derricote, Arhul Narra
[b]Edit: Picking [/b] [b][color=lightblue][hl=white]Attachment is a Jedi Code Violation Squadron[/b][/color][/hl] [b] then.[/b]
[b][color=silver][hl=darkblue]Better on Blu-Ray Squadron[/hl][/color][/b] (7) vs. [b][color=white][hl=yellow]Helios Squadron[/hl][/color][/b] (1)
[b]No need for teams[/b]
this is why i wanted to argue that last match, wanted to avoid this.
basically, i have no way of taking out vader and anakin. none. one of the, could deal with that, but that's two of the top six in the draft. that shouldn't even be in question PG.
You said you'd be fine with us judging since you couldn't get up an argument for at least three days.
Anyway, I'm choosing KenKenobi then.
oh, i know i said it. doesn't mean that's what i wanted though. but since i really don't care that much about this team, then *shrugs*
Anakin and Vader flying together in a match blows my mind. The cohesion is off the charts.
cohesion? why in the world would they be cohesive? one is the others evil side... i mean i can't really see them being cohesive, but skill wise? i stand no chance.
I rarely think of Anakin as good, pure or honorable. He has always been selfish, impulsive and more than one occassion has shown himself to be lacking in morality.
Yes Vader is pure evil, but Anakin is far from being lilly white. Towards the end, yet before becoming a Sith, Anakin was really nothing more than a Dark Jedi in the guise of a Jedi.
Initially he may loath the idea of what he would eventually become, but he had so many opportunities to deviate from that path but refused to do so that I don't think it would take him long to embrace his darker half.
As a Jedi look at his reaction to Sidious. He was repulsed....but not anywhere near to the level he should have been. He warmed to it, was full of doubt, and without too much time passing fully embraced it.
Also, in a starfighter....without any external drama....he would IMHO be fully cohesive with Vader. Not only is there a Force Meld going on like no other, but even without a Force connection there is an instinctive knowledge of of ones skill...ability and intent. Regardless of whether or not they like each other, you can't undervalue that level of knowing how each other would fly in a combat situation...and when it comes down to it they are in a life or death situation and will do what it takes to live.
Both Anakin and Vader are selfish enough to very quickly put morality aside with that kind of consequence on the line.
You're forgetting about Padme, Despised. I can't imagine Anakin working with Vader, knowing that he was responsible for her death.
Hmmm....why would Anakin know about what Vader did? If for draft purposes there is a distinct cut off between Vader and Anakin it would have to be when he took the title of Darth Vader. Anakin should by all draft purposes then be considered dead at that point, and would have no knowledge of what Vader did from that point on unless he was specifically told about it....which he wouldn't really be.
Besides, as I said, it is a life or death situation here. Anakin seems to toss morality and principles aside when it comes to this type of situation, he has done it multiple times in the past, and if faced with a situation in which he would die I think he would have no real problem doing it here.
Anakin likes winning, and he likes living....he would work with Vader to do both. Even if he doesn't like the person, the instinctive knowledge of what each other would do in combat is far more cohesive than others....that is a kind of cohesion you can't just throw in the trash because they may or may not like each other.
and here's a question for you: if they're REALLY that close, then why the hell aren't the listed as the same person? because they ARE that different. anakin was doing what he did to save padme. vader doesn't care anymore. he hates himself, but he also is about as evil as they come until luke comes around again and brings ANAKIN back out. because they are POLAR opposites. anakin generally tried to do what was right, even if he went about it in a less than orthodox or a morally questionable fashion. vader is all about what he, or the emperor, wants, and that's about it. bit of a difference there.
you forget one thing. vader died before anakin did. he came BACK as anakin at the end when he killed the emperor. very, very distinct point on this, and that's why he becomes a force ghost with yoda and ben at the end of ROTJ. anakin should know EVERYTHING that vader did. just like vader knows everything anakin did do that point.
and honestly, if there were any two people i would think would want to kill each other more than ANY other two people in this draft? it would be anakin and vader. vader because he would despise, hate and otherwise want every reminder of who and what he was gone. anakin because he WAS NOT evil. morally questionable at times, yes, but his goals were normally about the greater good or helping someone he loved. even when he killed the sand people villiage, he went there to save his mother. not to kill them. i can't see vader EVER doing something like that.
Anakin was doing what he did for himself, it had nothing to do with Padme...other than her being the object of his desire. Anakin's prime motivations were always centered upon himself.
His relationships were about loyalty to him and fear of abandonment and loss. Not about selflessness, love or morality.
There is a reason he was walking a tightrope between light and dark the entire time, it was because he was selfish and full of fear.
He became Vader when he officially turned his back on the Jedi Order, but he was not a true Jedi for some time based on his actions.
Well that part may be true, didn't really consider that.
Doesn't really change my thinking about how Vader and Anakin would fly together in combat though. You don't have to like a guy to act upon the selfish desire to want to survive and win (two things which both Anakin and Vader can easily agree to).
you're talking about how they're both supremely selfish... this means they care about what they want more than anything else, yes? what vader wants more than anything else is anakin gone. he wants anakins memories gone. he wants all aspects of anakin... you guessed it, gone. in short, he wants him dead. he wants all aspects of anakin dead, and if he is confronted with anakin in front of him, it would likely be like wrath unseen before in the SWs universe. vader does NOT work well with others if they aren't the emperor. he commands, and expects all others to follow him. period. no ands, ifs, buts or exceptions of any kind. now, what part of anakin that you have seen has him following orders worth spit? how many times did he DIRECTLY ignore obi-wan as both his padawan and partner? and he LIKES obi-wan. loves him like a brother.
i can not in any way see these two flying together well. do they have the abilities needed to do so? hells to the yes. but you are forgetting precisely one thing despised. vader is NOT anakin. he does not think the same way, he does not approach things the same way, he does not fly the same way. anakin took joy in flying. he loved it. did it pretty much any chance he got. did things obi-wan and pretty much anyone else thought was insane. impossible. in short, he was a daredevil about it.
vader isn't like that. he is more workmanlike. he toys with people sometimes, yes, but he destroys them completely. he is about getting things done. when have we seen him fly and take joy in anything? he doesn't. he can't.
their philosophical differences, differences in the way they think, and the fact that they are going to hate each others guts in a way that isn't even possible for any two other people in this or any other draft (so far as i can think) mean that they are not going to be wingmates. in order to survive, they are going to be as far away from each other as is possible, and then probably duke it out once everything's done.
anakin didn't use his anger to be more powerful most of the time. he used emotion, yes, but that was fear normally. the only time we see ANAKIN using anger, is after his mother died. that is the lone time i can remember. period. vader? that's his modus operandi. again, VAST difference between the two.
basically what you have here is two people that have the skills and knowledge to have a cohesive situation that not even luke/mara could rival... but instead because of their differences and hatreds of each other probably have the absolute worst cohesion in the draft personality wise.
or here's a way to think about it as well. anakin was the hero without fear. vader was fear incarnate. yes, anakin was questionable morally... but he was still UNQUESTIONABLY a hero. vader is evil, and villain, and about as opposite of that as you can get.
Trim, why couldn't you use these paragraphs to defend Boba?
because this i don't have to do any research for.
Should have arguments up tomorrow or maybe Saturday.
You'll have to excuse me. In the move to Denver, I got rid of a great number of things, including all of my X-Wing books, and several other Star Wars novels, so I'm not going to be able to quote page and verse to you.
I ask the judges this: what do you value more: better top-end performance and ability, or better in the heart of things.
There's no denying that in Tycho, my opponent has the single best pilot in this match. After that, what advantage does he have? Of the next six "ranked" pilots, five of them are mine. In some order, it would go Pash, Wes, Hobbie, Biggs, Farrel, and Salm. I believe the judges agree with this, as the pilot I would rank at the bottom of that list (Salm) was just voted over the pilot at the top of the rest of pilots (Moor).
My team's also got plenty of experience and cohesion. Wes and Hobbie, Hobbie nad Biggs, Wes and Hobbie and Farrel, etc. Outside of the Clone Wars era, most major battles at least someone from my squad has been in. Yavin, Endor, Hoth, Vong missions, anti-Jacen missions, Mandalorian war battles, Jedi civil war battles, etc. I don't care which team has more experience, because both teams have enough experience that it's pretty much a non-factor.
Neither team is relying on the Force for an edge here.
To me, the bottom line is my guys either all know and have flown together, or show a great ability to fall in line, and the gap up top is not so large that the gap in the middle doesn't more than make up for it.
Plus, there is one thing my team can do the other team cannot. After a victory, they can honestly say "a bothan died to bring us this victory". And that, right there, is the ultimate tiebreaker.
Not so sure I'd agree that Biggs is better than Farrell, or that Biggs is better than Moor. I'd also wonder what sort of cohesion the likes of Wes and Hobbie would have with someone like Salm. Most importantly, what about heredity? Syal has better blood than all of 'em.
Bah, the judges didn't hear my arguments for Moor v. Salm. Salm has had a nice little career, for sure, but Moor was compared by Luke Skywalker to Wedge Antilles and he couldn't choose between the two. She led the second best unit in the empire. She's got skill dripping off her, more than enough to be better than Salm, or Biggs.
As for the rest, Inty conveniently glossed over the fact I have the two best pilots in the match. That advantage is tough to make up. Going down the line:
Tycho > Wes
Pash > Hobbie
Moor > Biggs
Seriously. We have that Biggs was an ace in one mission and a great skyhopper pilot. Yay? Moor was the commander of an elite squadron, and on Wedge's level as a pilot. My bad for not arguing her earlier so we could have avoided teams all together.
Antilles < Farrel
Bey > Salm
Proposition: Any Rogue Leader will be a really freaking good pilot. We don't have an overwhelming amount of info for him (pitfall of comic characters), but we do know he was in charge of Rogue Squadron for 7 years during the Second Imperial Civil war, including the trap battle of Mon Calamari.
Dahl > Carth
See the previous proposition. Dahl flew both threw the second imperial civil war, and then took over Rogue Squadron when Bey was promoted, which led to her leading the squadron during more raids on the sith empire, including the battle of raltiir.
Vindoo "The Shooter" Barvel > That Bothan
I'm unclear as to what prompted Peshk to be drafted, but Vindoo is considered one of the greatest pilots ever. While reputation isn't worth much (see him getting drafted in the seventh), we know where he has experience (The clone wars), some details (at least 30 confirmed kills, more unconfirmed), and some examples (crushing every imperial not named vader).
Sandskimmer < Plourr
Whatever, I actually think differently but its the 8th pilots.
As for cohesion, I think my team got undersold. Tycho-Pash, cool. Tycho-Moor, cool. Tycho-Syal, cool. Sandskimmer is tangentially related to the whole thing and The Shooter is out there but that is fine. Bey-Dahl is tight.
And of course, you're missing the fact that I have three Rogue Leaders. When three more more Rogue Leaders join forces, they can bind themselves to using their special Rogue Leader rings. The resulting creation is known as LEADER OF THE ROGUES, and is the greatest raw piloting force of all time, making Luke Skywalker look like a drunken 3 year old in a bumpercart. YOU CAN'T STOP THAT.
This was an extremely tough decision, but I'll go ahead and give NYJ the slight edge here with the Rogue Leaders providing the slight bump over the top.
i'm somewhat disappointed in the lack of reply from despised.[face_tongue
I agree for the reasons I outlined earlier.