Games The 15th EUC Starfighter Draft: Ace Errant

Well if the individual list of feats for each pilot doesn't speak for itself than there is really no point right?

Lando has a list of accomplishments about 10 times as long as Syal's, has survived more battles which were just as if not more intense than what Syal has gone through, and has the utmost respect of the Galaxies top pilots (Han, Luke, Wedge, etc...).

Though I suppose Syal is cute and all, cause that counts for a lot.

What has Syal done that puts her over a highly respected, skilled and unorthodox pilot who has decades of experience in tougher situations?

That match shouldn't even need arguing.

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For the sake of saying I at least gave it a shot....

He was trained by Solo, and many thought him to have been trained in the Imperial Academy as a pilot. He flew various smuggling runs, and didn't have someone else do the flying for him. He flew the Falcon against the Empire in the Battle of Nar Shaddaa and helped to divert that attack. He flew later against a pirate ambush, and defeated them while in the Falcon. Later came under attack by Renatasian fighters and shot a few down before outrunning the rest. He fought against multiple pirate attacks in the folling time, fending them off each time...which is when the Falcon began to earn a reputation (under Lando's command, not Solo's).

He pulled this off a few months after the Battle of Yavin..."He then led Taanab's orbital defense fleet in a mopping up operation. As a result, Calrissian single-handedly destroyed nineteen of the remaining vessels and crippled the pirates' two supporting corvettes."

After Solo was trapped in carbonite by Vader, Lando again took control of the Falcon and almost right away was engaged in a fight against the Imperials which he survived.

Lando again flew to the rescue in the Falcon as Leia and Chewbacca sabotaged the Tarkin, as they were trying to escape their engines were shot out by 2 TIE fighters and were about to be captured until Lando came and shot the TIEs down.

He later flew a Y-wing in a battle against more Imperials, not only surviving but helping the Rebels win the engagement.

He flew in a host of other engagements and missions against the Black Sun organization, and we next see him in RotJ....we know what he did there (being named General and chosen to [i]lead[/i] the strike on the Death Star).

That is just up to the Battle of Endor in 4 ABY (his first 15 years of being an active adventurer/gambler/smuggler)....need I go on with what he does in the next 40 years? I can, but is it really necessary here? Sure, why not.

Just prior to the Second Battle of Endor Lando was chosen to supervise the training of pilots, LANDO. He also was given command of the Alliance Defense and led the defensive engagement against a wave of Nagai who were led by Lumiya, even though the attackers has information on their flight patterns Lando was able to formulate a new set of attack patterns mid battle and send Lumiya and her squadrons into a full retreat.

Not much later, in the Nagai-Tof war, Calrissian was again given command of a formation of Alliance ships against a Tof wave of fighters. The fighters were defeated and Calrissian pressed the attack against their command ship and eventually got it to surrender.

Lando later assembled a group of pirates, smugglers and bounty hunters and called them Lando's Commandos. With his leadership they took down a notorious pirate group that had been able to waylay numerous Republic ships. He again used them to retake Cloud City through use of a Lando led starfighter attack.

Lando and Luke later helped Chewbacca rescue his father by leading an air attack against Trandoshan slavers on the Avatar Orbital Platform. They were sucessful.

He again was active in the space based engagement over Mindor against Shadowspawn. After then he resigned his General's commission, that was in 8 ABY.

I could go on and on, we got about another 30 years of material, but honestly I don't really have the time to go through it at the moment. I am getting

 

Just got back from the family weekend vacation, kinda surprised to not see a single comment. Oh well, it is a holiday weekend I guess.

 

i back you on it jello. not that it makes that big of a difference.

 

I guess the main reason I voted for Syal is that she's a regular combat pilot, Lando isn't. I had to read the Wookie article on Lando (I don't have access to many of those resources that Lando's in, and don't have time to read them all anyways), and noticed that there isn't much where he regularly pilots. In some cases he has a droid fly for him, in the most obvious Nien Nunb. So there's many years, but little actual flying at least from what I could tell. Second while Lando's more experienced, I don't think it'd take too terribly long for Syal to eclipse Lando's experience assuming she's flying regular missions. Third, Syal's training is probably more through than what Lando got, and she's flow against easily three of the top 5 pilots (Luke, Wedge, Tycho, not to mention Han or Jacen) ever either in combat or at least in simulators.

In the end I think Syal's more skilled, Lando's more experienced, both are fourth rounders, and I sided with the regular combat pilot.

 

How many engagements has this "regular pilot" flown in? How many times has she been asked to lead attacks that will have an impact on the entire Galaxy? How many kills does she have (2 in a combat situation, 1 of which we know for a fact was an accident)? How much respect has she gained from the Galaxies premier pilots? How many times has she been asked to train Alliance Defense pilots (seems like it would take just a bit of skill to train others like that no? Doesn't it say anything about Lando's skill that people like Ackbar and Wedge would trust this burdon to him)?

Lando creams her in all those categories. It isn't even close.

Also, that thing about skill being native, inherent, inborn. I don't buy that in the Jedi Draft, and I don't buy it here. Parents and children often times have differing levels of skill and natural ability, unless a child shows their own skill you can't base their potential on the parent's achievements. It is nothing more than reputation based on name, with absolutely NOTHING to back it up other than looking at what the parent has done, which really is the situation with Syal...because she has done what again? Still waiting for that answer.

How does that magically native and unproven "skill" stack up against a very experienced and unorthodox and highly skilled pilot who has taken out many career pilots, many of which were trained under the Empire who all but lived in those TIEs....or who made a living through pirating and whose lives completely depended on superior skills in a ship. Yet who was it that was able to walk away from the engagement? Yup, Lando.

Where did she show this inherent inborn skill that she supposedly has? Maybe give me just one example? Based on what she has actually done, which isn't much, I aint seeing it.

Oh well, congrats NYJ.

 

I'm going to go ahead and going to agree with PG, I'm not sure if he's back from his trip yet (he said monday and I'm not sure which monday tbh), if not I'll advance it to teams tomorrow.

As it stands right now, there's going to be three teams matches, so you can get your arguments up now if you want.


D1, it seems to me that you never completed LotF, failed to do due diligence when analyzing your opponent, which should have been easy since you'd only need to get information from two books. Had you done so an argument about Syal would have been more effective.

First at the end of the Vong War, Syal's 12. Pash is the only major character of note to be flying remotely close at that age (Wedge's Gamble). Wedge was three or four years older when he got the Headhunter to kill the people who killed his parents. You can find several military careers that begin at 18. That would put her, assuming she even entered the Academy at 18 at or around 35 ABY.

First VibroSword, it's in the book like that. Second, if you read that engagement, page 131-133 of Betrayal, the alternative wasn't that great if you noticed what happened to Five. While she didn't mean to get a kill her opponent wasn't that great and there are examples of Corran and Wedge shooting down a rookie. That said I bet she got those A-9s at the end of Chapter 12.

After a spy for Corellia came in and Syal killed her, and Shalla did her a favor, since V-Lead's an idiot. Also it looks like that she already had the offer for that test squadron either before her first fight, or after that, not sure, but on pg 299, it appears that's her only choice to fly. Being an Antilles, the choice is natural.

I don't think eventually is the correct word, since the timeline seems to be fairly short. I'm also willing to bet one of the three fighters lost went to Syal (pg 372). That said following Han and Wedge was a pretty decent display of skill. In more detail skimming the last 50-100 pages for the parts that occur on Tralus will do wonders.

Here's a hint, read Fury.

One your information is complete, two of the two kills you're referencing, you're wrong about the frigate. That's V-Lead's kill. Finally how can you really total up the kills of pilots from books? There's a list of kills described in Rogue Squadron when Wedge is doing his inspection of his X-wing. Are there direct references to all of those kills indicated on his X-wing in other sources from the beginning of his career to 6.5 ABY? I bet

 

Ok, so after saying all that you still didn't tell me where she has shown this amazing natural skill that you are giving her credit for. Most of what you just said is excuses for why Syal doesn't have experience, none of it proves skill or gave her experience right?

Following Han and Wedge? That is the single thing you pointed to as a show of skill. In the end she ran into Han's jettisoned payload. Doesn't seem like a great thing to me. Why is tailing Han and Wedge so great? Can you explain that to me so I understand your point of view?

Again, what are you using to give her credit for all this skill that puts her over a guy who has many kills (many of which were also regular pilots, like Syal), who was selected by Ackbar and Wedge to train Alliance defense pilots, who was tasked to lead the strike into the Death Star (and Lando did fly that mission, Nunb was his Co-pilot....his Chewie to Lando's Han so to speak), came up with flight patterns on the fly to help Alliance defense pilots defeat Lumiya and her Nagai squadrons, etc...etc...etc.

Really. Over and again when asked to show anything to support the way you voted I am getting nothing. Jello is going with his gut, because even though he really isn't citing anything specific Syal apparantly has some magical innate skill. You're just voting a "regular pilot" who has no where near the experience and who hasn't flown in anything close to engagements that are as dangerous or important as what Lando went through.

Sorry for asking for more reasoning behind the vote like this, but seeing as this match either knocks me out of the draft or gives the team a chance to move on....I am going to press for something more than a "gut" vote. It is hard to swallow this vote after reading fully both bios and doing a bit more research to see if anything was missed, because after reading both bios fully Lando clearly seems to be the far more experienced, respected, skilled and dangerous pilot.

Just ask yourself this. For as skilled as you think Syal is, would Ackbar ever have trused her with leading the 2nd DS run? Would he ever have allowed her to train his pilots? Would he have given her command of Alliance Defense and been asked to lead it's squadrons in battle?

I would have a hard time saying yes to any of those questions. Yet for all the great pilots out there, Wes...Wedge...Han...etc...it was Lando who was chosen for these things. Why? Maybe it is because he is far more skilled than you are giving him credit for.

 

I am going to repost an argument from an earlier draft regarding the skill of Lando...none of which I really touched upon in my own arguments.

"Lando's not inexperienced himself, and he too did the Second Death Star run, in a larger and less maneuverable ship. He's also got other achievements, like flying into Executor's hangar bay, blowing it up, and flying back out during the battle of Endor (GG5). Or outwitting a gang of pirates and racking up nineteen kills at Tanaab. Or flying through the Oseon Flamewind (which means his instruments were dead and he was in the middle of an asteroid field full of EM discharge) and shooting down a pair of fighters before outrunning the rest of the two-squadron group through an asteroid field and taking out something like a dozen with an exploding asteroid.

Lando's as skilled as Farrell or better, as far as we can tell, more accomplished than Farrell, smarter and a better tactician, luckier -- Farrell might have an experience edge in straight combat piloting, though he did spend a lot of time as a trainer and we certainly haven't seen more of his experience than Lando's. I don't think Farrell has the bona fides to beat Lando in this match."

Talk about skill. Flying into a SSD, blowing it up and leaving? Flying through the Flamewind while in the midst of an asteroid field full of EM charges blind and not running into an asteroid? (I should remind you that surviving an asteroid field nornally is 3,720 to 1...now take away sensors and add EM charges?) Taking down 19 pirates during a heated battle?

Really? Who has superior showings of skill?

and


"The Falcon is fast; that's not the same as being maneuverable. She's maneuverable for a freighter, sure; that's not the same thing as being an A-wing, especially not inside the Death Star, where size is a distinct consideration. And I'll note that having a crew doesn't impact the instances I've deliberately brought up, which are either cases of pure piloting ability or Lando on his own -- for the Flamewind, Lando handling the ship purely by himself and firing the forward guns from the cockpit.

And I'll note that, while being a freighter pilot, Lando is a fighter pilot. We've not only seen him in a fighter, but WEG consistently makes a point to give Lando equal stats in freighter and fighter piloting -- something it does not do for Han, Chewie, or Dash Rendar, all of whom have lower fighter scores. The simple "freighter pilot" dismissal, in addition to never being particularly compelling (every time we've ever seen somebody fly both starfighters and freighters, whether it be Lando, Han, Luke, Dash, or Wedge, that skill has been interchangeable in both cockpits) simply doesn't fly here."


You know, it is just hard to accept this potential loss when Jello admits that he didn't think that anyone would agree...and when the other GM (NYJ) admits that the judges are way underestimating Lando.

If there was some kind of compelling reasoning behind the vote that made sense I could swallow that bitter pill, but really....Syal being voted over Lando is IMHO a crazy result.

 

I'd say yes, but since I don't have time to pull out specific quotes from the books, and you probably wouldn't believe them, there's no point in arguing. By my best guess, both are fourth rounders, so it isn't the blowout that you say it is, but again my belief is that Syal's better.

 

So since both were picked in the 4th round that means what exactly? Could it mean that Syal was picked up early? Could it mean nothing at all? Luke is clearly better than Corran, yet they were both picked up in the 1st round....and yet it would definately be a blowout.

No?

Again, it is hard to swallow your and Jello's votes based on gut feelings when you can't provide anything to support it. You do understand how a person would be frustrated by that right?

Yet we know a lot of what Lando has done, and much of it is very impressive and actually shows a high level of skill. Syal can't put up a single feat that shows her having a level of skill that matches any of the following from Lando.

~ Flying into Executor's hangar bay, blowing it up, and flying back out during the battle of Endor (GG5)

~ Outwitting a gang of pirates and racking up nineteen kills at Tanaab. This alone is a feat by which Lando would be considered a triple Ace, even if you completely discount any of his other combat kills.

~ Flying through the Oseon Flamewind (which means his instruments were dead and he was in the middle of an asteroid field full of EM discharge) and shooting down a pair of fighters before outrunning the rest of the two-squadron group through an asteroid field and taking out something like a dozen with an exploding asteroid.

Now according to C3PO the odds of successfully navigating an asteroid field is approximately 3,720 to 1. Since that figure was given to Han at a time in which the field wasn't loaded with EM charges and when Han had access to his sensor array, it is safe to say that the odds were even worse yet he not only made it through but also scored some kills in the process.

But I digress, if you absolutely refuse to even consider a vote flop in the face of overwhelming evidence while at the same time not being able cite even one piece of evidence to support the vote made I can live with it. Though considering the importance of the match it really would have been nice to at least get more of an explaination than a "gut feeling" or "by my best guess" or "my belief is" without any other reasoning behind it (especially since Jello didn't think anyone would agree with him and when NYJ himself tells me that he thinks you guys are seriously underestimating Lando).

 

i think lando was picked up early, honestly. he is not the most impressive pilot, and didn't even know how to fly for the longest time. he isn't the one doing the flying in the deathstar run, he also had a droid do his flying for him for a very long time. it was only post ROTJ that he really started flying, and it wasn't very often that it was in serious combat situations because, lets face it, he has yachts and not smuggler ships with weapons. that's a pretty consistent thing with him. that's a large part of why i don't think he would beat syal, because he isn't now nor has he ever been much of a combat pilot.

 

Which is funny because for what little amount of combat experience everyone assigns Lando, Syal has less

 

but what syal DOES have is pretty much straight combat. or being trained by wedge and tycho, and lando certainly didn't have trainers like that.

 

Yup, Syal has FAR less combat and flight experience than Lando. She also has less tactical skill and luck. Based on the comparible feats, also less skill.

Also Trim....it is a good thing then that you are wrong about some of your info. Lando does do a good share of his own piloting, maybe not in a yacht...but clearly enough to be hand selected by Ackbar to train his Alliance pilots...and enough to shoot down 19 pirates at Tanaab...and enough to fly through an asteroid belt without sensors and while being tailed by 2 dozen fighters hot on his tail and still being able to kill all but 5 of the ships...and enough to lead an Alliance engagement against Lumiya and her Nagai squadrons and help save the day by coming up with new tactics while flying in the engagement...and being chosen to lead the 2nd DS run (in which HE was the pilot of the ship).

And if you actually read his bio, don't skim...you will see that at the age of 27 he learned to fly from Han and from then on was a true threat as a pilot.

You guys really like to ignore feats, feats shouldn't be dismissed as they are factual evidence of what a pilot has done. Even a small # of impressive combat feats, of which Lando has more than a small #, should really be more than enough to put him over someone who is largly getting a win based on gut feelings, hunches and the reputations of her trainers and father.

PS: So Trim...training that is pretty much unproven in combat situations is better than doezens of impressive combat situations and the trust of people like Han, Ackbar, Luke and Wedge in situations like the 2nd DS run and in taking control of Alliance piloting training and command?

EDIT: Just wanted to underline that one part above, because really this is what the fight is coming down to. A long list of tangible and impressive combat feats vs. for the most part still unproven training and her name.

EDIT 2: There is also the fact that during the recent Kessel mission Lando assembled the who's who of New Repblic Era pilots....of which by Leia's own admission Han and Lando were every bit as deserving to be recognized on the same level. And Lando did pilot the Lady Luck in that mission, right beside the who's who of the galaxy. Also....Syal wasn't there.

 

Did you find this from the 13th SFD?

Ah, the bad, bad memories.

Thanks D1!

 

I believe that is where it came from.

Also, you are welcome.

 

Here's what I see, you say that I can't provide anything to support my decision, yet I provided pages, in which Syal is primarily involved. I'm looking through Fury right now finding more examples. I will be honest and say there aren't as many since she appears in it a bit less and isn't flying the entire time she does appear, but still there are examples. The problem is that even if I'm going to spend the time to pull specific quotes I don't believe you'll read them, I don't believe you'll even acknowledge that they exist.

That said let's talk about Lando, specifically his two main credits for experience. He has others, I know and I don't think I can find them since many I bet are out of print.

The Battle of Tanaab- The main "little maneuver" that's talked about is Lando lying in wait in ice rings around the moon orbiting Tanaab. When the pirate fleet show up he launches Conner nets to disable a large portion of the fleet and then also sending ice chunks at the fleet. To me that speaks more to his tactical ability, than to pure piloting skill. While I can't say that my view is the correct one, it seems that his tactical ability and his ability to come up with alternative tactics is why he was made General in the Rebellion before Endor.

Endor, in my opinion you can't give Lando credit without giving Nien Nunb credit. That also, there's no mention of Lando destroying the hanger of the Executor outside of GG5. Certainly nothing shows up along those lines in the 04 version of the movie. I have to wonder whether to actually give him credit for that particular part. That said he came up with the strategy that saved the Rebellion by engaging the Star Destroyers at close range and supposedly preventing the Death Star from firing on the ships.

The big problem for me is that I have to put qualifying statements with a lot of the big things that Lando's done. If people give partial credit for Han flying the Falcon, then you have to for Lando and the variety of ships he's flown. For many of the early exploits he had the assistance of a droid, where with the exception of the fight in and around the Osseon Flamewind, that droid is doing most of the flying. Tanaab was an ambush so successful that it was won before shot was fired on Lando's side. Endor, Lando had a crew to help fly the Falcon while he was issuing orders, or concentrate on the bigger picture sometimes. I will not deny he's a superior pilot, nor one of the best tactical minds, especially in unorthodox methods, but to quote Wedge when talking to Jaina, he's a traitor to the piloting profession. See Betrayal if you want elaboration.

 

thank you for going into that so i don't have to adam. but what adam said is why i said what i said despised.

 

Teams matches (If I don't get the colors right, I will brain you):

Old Fossil Squadron vs This is my Team Team: (Han Solo, Keyan Farlander, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Zekk, Plo Koon, Asajj Ventress, Cade Skywalker, BoShek vs Jaina Solo, Jagged Fel, Tesar Sebatyne, Shawnkyr Nuruodo, Nrin Vakil, Kyle Katarn, Edor Crespin, Riv Shiel)

The Integrity of Bruce Pearl Squadron aka The Only Funny Tennessee Joke Ever vs MmmCheese! Squadron: (Hobbie, Wes, Biggs, Farrell, Salm, Carth, Vri?Syk, Plour vs Maarek Stele, Darth Caedus, Lumiya, Nial Declann, Imperial Ace, Broak Vessery, Erisi Dlarit, Gunn Yage)

Failing With Style vs Helios Squadron aka My Eyes!: (Soontir Fel, Dash Rendar, Inyri Forge, Bror Jace, Voort ?Piggy? saBinring, Castin Donn, Lujayne Forge, Arvel Crynyd vs Adi Gallia, Saesee Tiin, Rookie One, Rhys Dallows, Mace Windu, Aayla Secura, Villian Dance, Cheriss ke Hanadi)

 

I never asked you for specific quotes, I asked for anything....something....just give me more than a "gut feeling" or "my belief" from you or Jello. If you are so sure of the vote, back it up.

In regards to the pages you gave (which you now say doesn't even really have much there), I would have been happy to look if I had access to the book. That is why I was asking for something a bit more. Capiche?

But again, you really have cited nothing about Syal's great skill in a ship.

All you guys keep doing is bagging on the many references cited in regards to Lando without offering anything in return for Syal. That is fine I guess, but if nothing in particular stands out in your mind to even give a refernce to it probably wasn't that spectacular.

But of course she has a famous name, and some famous trainers. So that is more than enough for this draft I gess.

Also, Lando running through a EM charge laden asteroid field while being tailed by 2 dozen fighters with no sensors is >>>> than running into a jettisoned payload.

But ok, moving on.

Congrats again NJY.

 

how about her keeping up with han and wedge, and being good enough that han was worried about her shooting either himself or her father down? that the kind of specific detail you're looking for?

she also managed to take down at least one rogue/jedi down later on. not precisely nothing either.

 

Oh impressive....though not really. She still ran into his jettisoned payload and has very limited experience and has literally done almost nothing besides what you just mentioned.

One would think that it would be hard to give so much credit to Syal for the scant amount of actual feats she has while at the same time completely dismissing the many showings of skill/luck/tactics/experience that Lando has as well all the respect he has earned from the very same pilots you are using to fluff Syal up. But you are doing well at that, good job.

But alas, the match has already moved on. Toodles.

 

that's because lando's stuff is more on the tactical side than piloting. that's the main reason.

 

Except that time you keep ignoring where he flies through that asteroid belt full of EM charges, being tailed by 2 dozen hostile fighters, without sensors, and kills all but 5 of the hostiles.

We know that the odds of running an asteroid field with sensors, without fighters dogging you and without the em charges is 3720 to 1. I would bet under his circumstances the odds were a lot worse, yet he didn't run into anything.

On the flip side what do you think the odds are of avoiding a jettisoned payload with active sensors, without nobody tailing you and without worrying about EM charges? I would be they are a lot better than that, and Syal still failed.

Again, keep being completely dismissive of all the in universe praise (by the very same people you are using to hype Syal...except Lando has gotten more praise and more trust from those very same people) and showngs credited to Lando. If it makes the 2-3 not so impressive things you keep repeating about Syal that much more credible in your eyes, then it has to be correct right?