Games The 17th EUC Starfighter Draft: Pigs on the Wing

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by Point Given, Sep 30, 2012.

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  1. TypoCelchu Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 1, 2005
    star 6
    Following that logic Falynn Sandskimmer is at least as legit as Ventress. Landing finishing blows on capital ships isn't unheard of even amongst the lesser respected pilots. Sometimes it takes a little reading between the lines. In this match the judgement isn't a measurable science, it takes some reading between the lines, and unfortunately I'm not reading it the same as you.

    Edit: Also, concerning if the series is still canon, it presumably is considering that there has been no official word otherwise. But this is the same series that had Mace kill a droid army with fists, K'kruhk dying when he continues to live well into the Legacy era, and Anakin being knighted at the entirely wrong time in relation to the remainder of canon sources. It's a dubious source at best, and has almost always been treated as such in this draft. To act as though it's suddenly a reliable source of information would be to pretend as though this issue hasn't come up in the past. It has.
    Last edited by TypoCelchu, Oct 24, 2012
  2. PRENNTACULAR VIP

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2005
    star 6
  3. Mikaboshi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2005
    star 6
    Can you at least give some justification as to why you are voting for a guy who nobody seems to be willing (or able) to cite a single example of skill, over a pilot who has cannon feats against a better pilot and a really good feat showing skill at leading an attack on a flagship and personally doing some great damage personally (even if 2 judges seem to want to not even think about those examples).

    More and More Declann seems like the Tulak Hord of the Force User Draft. Hord was the "greatest duelist of his time", but has not a single feat to his name. So how is he judged? As the nobody he currently is. Until something backs up that rhetoric there is no reason to give a person like that any significant weight in a fight.

    Judge cannon and what is known, rather than reputation which is unsupported by any proof to show how that reputation was earned. I don't even know what lines you are reading between with Declann, there is nothing there other than his rank which is specifically stated as being in large part due to his battle meditation, and had nothing to do with his ability in a TIE. The ONLY time a TIE is even mentioned is when it was said that he was skilled as a pilot and that and his ability with the Force got him noticed by Palpatine.

    What level of skill is that? What specific feats are you referencing? How much experience does he have? How many kills? Against what kind of enemy? How many battles did he survive as a pilot? How did his skill match up with his peers?

    Can't answer any of that for him.
    Last edited by Despised1, Oct 24, 2012
  4. The Great No One Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2005
    star 8
    one thing that is known about declann is that he used the force to stop a gunship and then proceed to blow it up. and he was good enough in a fighter that it reached palpatines ears (which would have to go through a helluva a lot of channels), and then he was brought in because what he was doing was considered impossible without the force. so... that's something.
    Last edited by Trimaj, Oct 24, 2012
  5. TypoCelchu Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 1, 2005
    star 6
    I'm going to go ahead and remove myself from the direct confrontation concerning this particular match and put it simple: I've judged the match, and I don't intend to change it until YOU provide ME with something better than the two "feats" you've provided. The burden of the proof is for the GM, and the judging is for the judges. If every match was judged by concrete measures, there would be no need for three of us, or really any of us. There would just be a metric and wins and losses would be tallied off of that. You don't have to like every singe judgement I make, but it's not going to serve you any to continue to argue a match long after it is complete.
  6. Mikaboshi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2005
    star 6
    I have judged enough to know that at times I will need to give some reasoning as to why I voted a certain way, but neither judge in this case seems willing or able to explain that.

    I have given far more than anything on Declann, you are free to dismiss it if you wish but as a judge of a dozen or so drafts myself I consider it a courtesy to gamers to at least explain my votes when pressed for some kind of understanding.

    Trimaj cited one thing, which is ridiculous, but at least it is something. Half the force users in this draft can probably pull that off, Asajj actually has some great telekinetic feats that put her in that league.

    Anyway, whatever. I appreciated the complete lack of effort to help me understand your vote.

    Voting for a pilot with no shown piloting skill over a pilot who's show skill is being dismissed is a hard pill to swallow, but I guess I have no choice because you say so and that is just the way it is.
    Last edited by Despised1, Oct 24, 2012
  7. TypoCelchu Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 1, 2005
    star 6
    Your concerns are noted, but in the future it might be wise to note that a confrontational tone towards a judge certainly isn not the best way to convince said judge to play proverbial ball. So while it is certainly a courtesy for me to provide some base reasoning, it is not a requirement, and it is not something I will be providing to freely to GMs considering the more and more consistent level of assault on judges by GMs in more recent drafts. It is not my position to argue pilots for GMs and provide them with ammunition to use again further down the line. What I am always willing to do, however, is suspend judements to allow time for solid arguments to be made. In the future it may be better suited to request a bit longer to provide more sources or a more fleshed out argument so that you can convince ME that my judgement should be amended, rather than pressing me to prove to YOU that it should live to your vision of legitimacy.
    Last edited by TypoCelchu, Oct 24, 2012
  8. The Great No One Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2005
    star 8
    typo is being very consistent on this despised. as are the other judges. no one has given those particular things by ventress much credence in a very long time. or anything else that happened in that series. the way it's generally considered here (and overall i think is a fair assessment of the cartoon as it's very hard to not take it as hyperbolic at all. doesn't mean it's not fun to watch though) is that the cartoons were an in universe dramatization of things that happened. did ventress fight anakin? yes. did it take as long as is suggested in the cartoon? probably not. did mace fight a ton of droids? yes. did he fight of an army with his bare hands? again, probably not. i've seen this played out a ton of times at this point, and i think the judges are just tired of it. the fact that she loses to declann should tell you something about ventress, not necessarily declann. its one of the main reasons ventress is on my personal do not draft list, along with the haras. the only way i'd take her is in the 8th.

    EDIT

    guess i should have gotten this in sooner.

    and typo? you lied to me! you said you were going to bed. :(




    :p
    Last edited by Trimaj, Oct 24, 2012
  9. Point Given Mod of Literature and Community

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2006
    star 5
    Typo has done enough in explaining his reasoning. He's explained why Ventress's feats aren't that great, which essentially puts Declann and Ventress on an even playing field and brought up Declann's background which gives him the edge.

    Now to explain my reasoning. The Battle of Muunilist suffers from the original TCW's syndrome where Jedi and Sith feats were massively overhyped. I haven't really watched the new show so I just spent time familiarizing myself with the Battle of Sullust. Like you said, it was mostly tactical planning that got the Resolute destroyed (something that Declann has with his Battle Meditation) and though she landed the death blows, I can imagine one or two droid fighters doing the same.

    Sure, Declann doesn't have specific feats to his name (the gunship thing was from cut content) but reading between the lines one can see that he has plenty of skills. He was noticed by Palpatine and his agents, which tells you something about his skills. He has plenty of experience having fought in the Clone Wars and the Galactic Civil War as a full time pilot, unlike Ventress who didn't spend that much time flying overall, and the Meditation gives him a huge edge.

    I do take serious issue with the way you've phrased your posts. Taking issue with a judgement is one thing, perfectly understandable. Using that to make snide comments about the judges is another. Like Typo said, it's become more noticeable in recent drafts. I'm very easy-going but I might have to start putting my foot down if it comes up again, though since it's my last draft judging (going back to GM'ing next time) hopefully it won't be a common thing.
    Last edited by Point Given, Oct 24, 2012
  10. Mikaboshi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2005
    star 6
    You know what, no big deal. Vote how you want, explain what you want but only if you want to. If a GM asks for some reasoning to understand a vote, do or don't, up to you.

    Personally I have always found that a GM will respect a vote they disagree with if the judge has some reasoning behind it, the arguments tend to come when people are told to live with it and they aren't going to explain anything.

    It was really hard to swallow the approach that was taken, but hey, whatevs.

    PG: There was one post where I got a bit snippy towards Typo, my bad. In my view part of a judges job is to be able to firmly explain a vote if asked, since all the other drafts I have participated in have no problem with doing that the seemingly odd refusal to do so in this match irked me. I will make sure I don't voice my opinion on that again if that is what you are looking for.
    Last edited by Despised1, Oct 24, 2012
    DarkEagle likes this.
  11. The Great No One Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2005
    star 8
    so who's going to commish next time then?
  12. Point Given Mod of Literature and Community

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2006
    star 5
    There are two candidates I have in mind. If neither want it, I'll have to look elsewhere.
  13. The Great No One Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2005
    star 8
    don't look at me on that one. i'm terrible as a commish. i might judge though, if that's needed.
  14. PRENNTACULAR VIP

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2005
    star 6
    Good luck trying to get somebody to take over for you PG, haha.

    That said, you've done a pretty great job man. I'd like you more if you would call out numbers that helped my team more. But I'll take what I can get. :p
  15. Point Given Mod of Literature and Community

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2006
    star 5
    Blame the randomizer!

    I might come back to commish at some point. I'd like to win a SFD though :p
  16. imiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2004
    star 3
    Finally! Han was good for something, even if he wasn't facing the cream...
  17. TypoCelchu Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 1, 2005
    star 6
    I'm going to go ahead and toss my judgement for Zekk so we can move past this whole wrong number situation and on to the next round.
  18. Point Given Mod of Literature and Community

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2006
    star 5
    Next up is #8

    The Genius Pig Division


    725 Imperial Fighter Group(2) vs The Wonderful Wandering Whippersnappers (4)

    Nrin Vakil vs Rhysati Ynr

    Leaning Nrin. Wouldn't mind arguments


    Can't Take the Sky From Us (4) vs Mayhem Squadron (2)

    Asyr Sei'lar vs Garik "Face" Loran

    I'm pretty big on Face so I'm going to ask for arguments while leaning towards him.


    The Schizophrenic Horse Division


    Seven Gentlemen and a Princess(2) vs PANTS ARE GREAT Squadron (4)

    Rookie One vs Octa Ramis TRUMPED with Kyle Katarn (FORFEIT)

    R1


    Darth Vader Presents: The Squadron (3) vs The Non Descripts (3)

    Krasov Hara TRUMPED with Tesar Sebatyne (FORFEIT) vs Saesee Tiin

    Saesee
  19. adaml83 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2004
    star 4
    Rhysati, Asyr, agree on the rest.
  20. The Great No One Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2005
    star 8
    i might get something up tomorrow, but don't really count on it. been a bad few weeks for me. i freaking hate sinus infections. [face_frustrated]
  21. TypoCelchu Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 1, 2005
    star 6
    I'm going with Nrin and Face, but I am willing to allow a good argument to reverse my judgement.
  22. DarkEagle Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2009
    star 4
    I won't be able to put anything up till tomorrow afternoon/evening. So, you can vote if you want PG
  23. Point Given Mod of Literature and Community

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2006
    star 5
    I'll give it until tomorrow evening.
  24. imiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2004
    star 3
    I think Face, given his skill as demonstrated by his rise to leadership of the Wraiths while still part of Starfighter command, could give Asyr a strong fight, and if allowed enough time for prep, definitely defeat her.
  25. TypoCelchu Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 1, 2005
    star 6
    As a matter of courtesy to all participants, I feel I should warn you that there is a good chance I may be without power for an unforeseeable amount of time, as I am in the Mid-Atlantic of the US, which is currently under the threat of severe weather from Hurricane Sandy. It is my hope that the effect will be minor, but I may be unreachable for some time.
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