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Lit The 181st Discussion Group: Dark Forces! Bonus Level Unlocked: Jedi vs. Sith!

Discussion in 'Literature' started by RC-1991, Sep 3, 2012.

  1. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    Nov 21, 2000
    OK, I'm back, and look what I brought you: Jedi Knight!

    I guess there's not much to talk about that hasn't been touched already. It's still Dietz, it's still an adaptation of that lovely game, it's still enhanced by backstory and a subplot that shows that Kyle is not as much on his own as the game had him.

    One thing we should take note of is that the actual plot of the Jedi Knight game, already in progress since Rebel Agent, is attended to from page 99 onwards. Everything before that isn't in the game, including Kyle's first movements on Ruusan (since he's still got Jan with him).

    This makes me wonder a bit at the structure of these novella things, and what went on in the minds of the people that came up with the idea in the first place. Jedi Knight was a pretty big deal back in the day, and I think Dark Forces was, too. They didn't have the best graphics for a first person shooter, but they actually had a story. And huge levels to come with that. I never really played other FPS games, but from what I heard, it was really unusual how big the maps were. In addition, the cutscenes are just great. RC, you keep mentioning the cheesy awesome acting - I wouldn't even call it cheesy. It fits the mood of SW, and it's really good at making you feel with Kyle. So, how do you produce tie-in material to a hit like that?

    They chose to go for a pretty niche kind of books. They didn't do comics or a proper novel, and around that time, we already had STTE as a precedence. Also, this came out a bit later than the game, I'm not sure if the timing would support the idea that this was commissioned as a true companion to the game. It kind of feels as if they were going for what many people these days are asking for regarding Dark Empire: A retelling in "a proper medium". Not everyone plays video games. Actually, even with these books out, Kyle has been an EU outcast for years - while we knew he was there, the novels never included him (I guess mostly because they didn't want to use LucasArts characters, either because they were too "obscure" for the novel crowd or because there was too much "talking to other companies" involved). He almost lived in his own alternate universe - even though these novellas existed back then and planted him firmly into the ranks of the movie characters.

    Which brings me to the troubles of the format. First of all, these books are not "proper books". Outrage! Of course they are, but you only get them in the comic book aisle. And they're pretty expensive. So, who thought that the experiment "shorter book" (think YJK/GoF/Jedi Prince size) + "25 full colour illustrations" would be best for a story that up to now only appealed to video gamers? Publishing-wise, going from one niche to another? I can only imagine that with the game's huge audience, they thought it would be best to have something that's not as "non-visual" as your general book. And since they could have done a regular comic book as well, it was probably the other way round at the same time: They wanted to do this novella thing but had to find a good topic. Maybe boost the new format's sales by appealing to the gamer crowd?

    In the end, the experiment didn't really work, in several ways. Kyle still was kept out of the EU mainstream for years. The novella format didn't come back. The books are pretty obscure; we might have had more talk in this thread if we'd simply discussed the game - as it is, the most text in here is dedicated to the audio adaptation of the books. Nobody has talked about the artwork yet (even though this forum is notorious for needing visuals with its black and white text, so Dark Forces should have been heralded as the best kind of medium ever).

    And the other downside would be that for all the additional backstory, the books don't create real depth. They even neglect some character traits from the game simply because the cutscene dialogue was lost. In the game, Kyle clearly states that he's not political at all - he's a mercenary. This is also why he could go either way - light or dark. In the novellas, Kyle is strongly Imperial at first, then strongly Rebel. Mon Mothma should be unsure of him not because he's been at the imperial academy, but because he's not behind the rebel cause. Also, Jerec sees some leverage he has on Kyle, trying to seduce him with the promise of the valley's power - but we do not actually find out where that leverage might come from. When exactly does Kyle want power? The dark side story has always been the weakness of the game, rushing through subsequent cutscenes even though there's little to be seen in the first place. The actual game mechanic that chooses between dark and light has nothing to do with the fact that Kyle is always a nice guy in the videos before the choice: It's the way you play him. Choosing dark powers over light ones? Shooting civilians and, force forbid, Gonk droids? So you can either play all-out dark or light and not be surprised by the outcome. But if you put this into a story, you'll want the middle ground. You'll want Kyle kind of amoral, as a nice guy who's in love with his girl and who thinks it's great to be able to roast stormtroopers with lightning. The entire idea of him as a one-man army with a rail gun and a concussion rifle, taking potshots at puddles of fuel to kill enemies in explosions, is very much in a gray area. That way, it's easy to sell that he might sell out the girl he likes a lot for the power to set things straight in his universe. Revenge before love. Striking down Maw before showing Jedi compassion. I don't see anything cheesy in Jason Court trying to grasp what he just did when he slashed out at Maw.
     
  2. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 2, 2000
    I would just like to point out that Boba Fett's cameo is probably the single most worthless cameo in the EU, except for Wedge's cameo in Ruins of Dantooine.*

    *Possibly also Wedge's one line cameo in Before the Storm. But at least he had a good line in that one.
     
  3. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    Nov 21, 2000
    Well, what part of Ruins of Dantooine wasn't worthless.

    And see, that's my bickering about the entire idea of cameos in this. Fett really is the pointlessness in a nutshell, Lando works better because he has something to do on his own and isn't just turning down an invitation to the main story line, and the big three, especially Luke, have to take a step back out of the obvious reason that Kyle needs to do this destiny thing on his own. Not that Jerec is about to find one of the most dangerous things out there. A thing that Luke heard Yoda speak about because, well, he did. But at least our newest farmboy can grow up.

    The reasoning that Luke is sanctioning Kyle's adventure and Jedi future has been on my mind a lot thanks to these books and audio plays. Now I have this thought: What if someone retconned Kota into A New Hope, first having Leia look for Obi-Wan "because it's Kenobi's destiny to play a part in this, I feel it" and then knowingly not training Luke, plus not helping in the Battle of Yavin, because "I feel he has to do this on his own"?
     
  4. RC-1991

    RC-1991 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2009
    Well, now that all of this week's tests and assignments are out of the way (Thank the Nine), it's time for the post that (all five of) you have been waiting for!

    STAR WARS: DARK FORCES: JEDI KNIGHT

    -OPENING CRAWL!

    -Oh hey, this one is only 46 minutes long, which should be nice since the one-hour ones take me about 2.5-3 hours to write up

    -"It has been 8 years since the destruction of the first Death Star, and four years since the Emperor was destroyed". Can someone check this? That would place this just a year before HTTE, which doesn't quite mesh with my impressions so far.

    -On a related note, I've always conceptualized the NR-era dates as post-ROTJ, rather than post-ANH. Makes more sense to me

    -The advent of Jerec is described as a "dark shadow across the stars", which is pretty cool imagery, if not quite wildly creative

    -And we open with some farmer on I'm guessing Ruusan? He's sitting on top of hill 461, which I'm guessing is near the Valley

    -Yup it's Ruusan, as Morgan Katarn "dragged" these settlers off of their homeworld out to this rock.

    -Farmer's wife asks how the sunset is out on Hill 461. "Gorgeous, just like you." D'awwwwwww. Sounds like something I would have said in my last relationship. Also, we learn that the Hydro Pump (not the Pokemon move) is blinking out again. I'm sure that this will be the Chekhov's Gun of this story.

    -Uh oh, a "meteor" impact! Totally not a probe droid.

    -The farmer decides to blast the droid before it can report the settlement. This will turn out well.

    -And the probe droid blasts the farmer's speeder, to absolutely no one's surprise. Farmer Jon pulls the old "lock the controls, aim at the nearest enemy, and just out" trick, which actually manages to work.

    -Time for a Sariss and Jerec scene! Jerec is really touchy about the whole blind thing, and accuses Sariss of testing him because she "walks softly". Now THAT'S how you inspire loyalty in your followers.

    -Sariss gives Jerec a rundown on Ruusan, and notes the presence of a bunch of played-out mines that date back several thousand years.

    -It was at this point that one of my roommates came home and wanted to watch Episode 4 of Game of Thrones (he's just now close to the end of the first book, sweet summer child), so we ended up watching that and delaying this review

    -Sariss characterizes the locals as "space trash". Ouch.

    -Jerec forestalls Sariss's attack plan, opting to have the Dark Jedi visit the place themselves. Jerec is actually gathering intel. I'm impressed! ACTUAL MILITARY PLANNING. I can't wait to see how he's going to screw this up!

    -Oh look, Farmer Jon is still alive. He's going to report that probe droid to the mayor, who apparently is not exactly the most inspiring leader in the Mid Rim. And he's holed up in a cantina.

    -Farmer Jon uses a blaster to quiet the cantina, which actually ends up sounding more like a nightclub.

    -Aaaaaaaand the Mayor has this weird twang to his voice that I just find aggravating. God this guy is annoying.

    -Farmer Jon throws a piece of Probe Droid at the Mayor. Bonus points: mentioned "Norvanian Grog", which is apparently Dietz's drink of choice.

    -Farmer Jon tries to order an evacuation, but the mayor is all "lol no ur a stoopid farmer ima mayor"

    -Boy, this mayor is totally believable and not grating at all. He also thinks that just because the Empire hasn't found them yet, they never will. His comeuppance should be arriving any minute now.

    -The settlers agree with Mayor Blagojevich. Farmer Jon decides to evacuate his family now.

    -Sariss and Yun lol at what a backwater Ruusan is.

    -You know what, I prefer video game Boc. More entertaining.

    -Hey mayor, remember how the Empire will never find you? Lol

    -Sariss accuses the Rebels of tax evasion. Before you laugh, remember that's how they got Al Capone.

    -Apparently the Empire takes tax evasion seriously. Death Penalty? Really?

    -They go and talk to the mayor for an hour, though we don't know about what just yet.

    -After confirming that the settlers know nothing about the Valley, Jerec orders the extermination of the settlement, just in case I guess. Not too subtle, is he?

    -We now cut to some of the settlers on duty at a turbolaser station, when the proximity displays start warning them about incoming signals. Hilariously, the proximity alarms sound like cell phone ringtones from the 90s.

    -And yep, it's TIEs. We get to witness the assault through the eyes of the turbolaser crew, who start launching missiles (!?) at the incoming TIEs.

    -The Rebels actually manage to take out half of Beta Wave, which is pretty badass.

    -Boom, no more missile silos! And now the mayor comes crying to the Dark Jedi about how they're in his base killin his d00ds. Sariss beheads him for his troubles.

    -And suddenly we cut to the New Hope, which is randomly under attack.

    -Wait, it's Milagro. Isn't this how Luke finally gets his General's commission? Because that would definitely place this tale pre-Mindor.

    -Han is going to keep the Star Destroyer away from the New Hope... somehow.

    -SKYWALKER TO THE RESCUE

    -Kyle's tagging along too! That Star Destroyer should probably just go ahead and retreat.

    -So it's a damaged Vicstar with a bunch of escorts. Piece of cake, really.

    -Luke, channeling his inner Gar Stazi, decides to attack the damn thing head-on. Jan reluctantly agrees to this apparent suicide mission. Apparently the Moldy Crow's sensors aren't powerful enough to pick up Character Shields.

    -And now the Vicstar captain chews out his XO because he didn't notify him the MINUTE that New Hope started changing course. This earns the XO an impromptu execution, because that's going to do wonders for morale. The captain then proclaims that he's surrounded by *******s fools.

    -And now the captain is willing to break formation just to swat Luke and co. out of the stars. So Luke's generalship is based on his ability to exploit Imperial idiocy. Makes sense, actually.

    -This of course leaves the Vicstar open to fire from the Millennium Falcon, New Hope, and Red Squadron.

    -Kyle helps to peel several TIEs off of the Falcon, because he's a big damn hero.

    -Suddenly the Captain shows some concern for his pilots, which is kind of inconsistent.

    -And now we cut to a briefing scene with all the heros assembled. Vicstar is down, obviously.

    -Kyle recaps the whole story for the benefit of Han and the listener.

    -Leia suggests that Jerec is unlikely to have the backing of the Rump Empire.

    -Luke agrees with Kyle that this whole thing is Kyle's destiny. Mon Mothma suddenly decides that Kyle being a lone wolf is why she doesn't trust him. So it's not the whole Imperial angle anymore? Make up your mind, Mon Guevara.

    -Kyle basically tells Mothma to try and stop him. Luke talks her down. Mothma intends to deny him a ship, but Kyle just suggests using an Imperial transport ship filled with supplies.

    -And now we randomly jump to some penal colony? Huh?

    -Okay, so I'm guessing Kyle and Jan are assembling some dirty dozen to run their mission.

    -The first candidate is a mutineer. The guy refused to leave a spec ops team under fire, despite his orders. I've noticed that mutineers are always portrayed very sympathetically in Star Wars.

    -And now we are approaching Ruusan. The CO's fake name (I'm assuming Katarn is commanding this whole shindig) is "Drax". Wasn't that a Bond villain?

    -Now they are asking for recognition codes; the pilot-who claims to be an engineer, but we all know this is the former mutineer- claims to have been on a run to Byss when the bridge took a direct hit. Since when does the NR know about Byss?

    -And now Kyle and Jan jet off with the Moldy Crow to look for the valley. Rahn starts talking to Kyle, and Kyle responds, leading to a situation similar to when Cade argues with Luke in front of Jariah. It's supposed to be funny or something because neither Jariah or Jan can see the Jedi ghosts, I suppose.

    -Jan seems pretty calm, considering Kyle is talking to dead people right in front of her.

    -Then again, she's pretty used to weird stuff from Kyle by now. Jan defuses the situation by suggesting they go on a vacation after this whole thing is over. I think this is one of the few times in the EU where someone says this and it probably actually happens, instead them dying shortly thereafter.

    -Kyle and Jan follow some anomalous signal down to the ground- I'm assuming it's a bunch of settlers. They choose to play nice with some remote that is surveilling them, furthering my suspicions that these are the surviving settlers.

    -Can I call them or can I call them? It's Farmer Jon and his wife.

    -Luckily, the settlers at least notice that Kyle bears a resemblance to his father. But, much like Mothma, the settlers can't decide which side Kyle is on. I'm sure he will win them over somehow. Interpretive dance, maybe?

    -Kyle and Jan land at these ruins where the settlers are hiding.

    -Kyle steps out of the ship and gives the old "we come in peace, take me to your leader" line. That always reassures me when some stranger steps out of a spacecraft.

    -The settlers disarm Kyle and Jan. As if that would stop Kyle Katarn if he's angry.

    -Kyle reveals to the settlers that Morgan is dead, and informs them that he's here to explore the ruins. En route to some temple, he gives them the whole plot summary of the previous four radio dramas. Fortunately, it just transitions as soon as he starts talking, so we are spared the recap.

    -One of the settlers is highly skeptical of Kyle. Time for the interpretive dance?

    -Nope, Kyle just Force-pulls the lightsaber from Doubting Thomas's hand.

    "If we can't stop Jerec, the entire galaxy will be doomed."

    And with that we end part 5 of this 6-part radio drama. I would actually say that this is the weakest of the dramas so far. No big corny lines, a few continuity questions, and it's barely touched on the actual game. I'm actually kind of let down by this.

    And that Kota retcon would be pretty annoying- I'd rather he just be dead by that point.
     
  5. Tim Battershell

    Tim Battershell Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 3, 2012
    There are two planets named Byss! One in the Deep Core, one in the Outer Rim (the Byss/Abyss system, homesystem to the Abyssin). Confusing, isn't it!

    Perhaps Palps duplicated the name deliberately so his enemies (if they happened to hear "Byss") wouldbe looking in the wrong place!
     
  6. RC-1991

    RC-1991 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 2, 2009
    :oops:I forgot about the other Byss.
     
  7. Tim Battershell

    Tim Battershell Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 3, 2012
    Battle of Endor = 4 ABY according to the Wook - Kyle's Jedi Knight journey starts one year later - ibid. Retcon needed?

    It would appear to make more sense for the NR to have dated everything from Endor but Yavin was when the Alliance grew-up, so to speak, from a shadowy group of dissidents to a recognisable threat to the Empire.

    I was wondering why they didn't chose the Corellian Treaty as a starting point - but the Wook says that it was actually set up as a Vader deception.
     
  8. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Could also be „regular“ Byss, as it is known to exist, just not that the Emperor went into hiding their after his death.
     
  9. Tim Battershell

    Tim Battershell Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 3, 2012
    Looking at the distances involved (and that the Deep Core Byss was "thought to be a myth by many" - Essential Atlas), the Outer Rim Byss would probably be the better excuse!
     
  10. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    Nov 21, 2000
    I actually listened to this disc at work today... funnily enough, I think the 15 missing minutes can be accounted for by scenes that are actually longer in the book than in here, and it's mostly the other way round.

    Also, remember my page 99 revelation: you'll find no Dark Forces: Jedi Knight in this half of Dark Forces: Jedi Knight, son.

    The timeline placing in these is really awful, remember that there was this sudden switch from "6 years after Kyle stole the Death Star plans" to "8 years after he graduated", so adding two years isn't that new. Here, it should still be the same date, but it makes it sound as if Kyle and Jerec just took two years off. Who knows, maybe someone was frozen in carbonite. Regarding whether you set the "Big Zero" at ANH or ROTJ: ROTJ makes more (the only) sense IU, but ANH is the first reference point for everyone who only sees this from an OOU point of view. Therefore you have the great beautifully round 25 years from ANH to Vector Prime, but then they have to sell it saying it's a seemingly arbitrary 21 years since Vader and the Emperor died. HTTE went the other route, seeing as it was meant to continue where they left it, and therefore has a proper nice 5 years (compared to the 9 years to ANH which isn't as cool in our numerical system).

    I so want him retconned as a Gungan! Listen again: it's exactly as if the Gungans learned how to use proper grammar and stuff in the 40 years since they came out of the wild.
     
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  11. Tim Battershell

    Tim Battershell Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 3, 2012
    - Rebel Agent Part 1.

    - Kyle's Wook Biography.

    is what I was calling the start of Kyle's Jedi Knight journey!
     
  12. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    Nov 21, 2000
    Oh, these radio dramas were definitely brought to you by Interplanetary Expositions, no questions.
     
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  13. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    Nov 21, 2000
    By the way, being confronted with that Alonso (sp?) character again today, wouldn't you all agree that if Dietz does one thing surprisingly well it's inventing new characters? Especially showing the wallpapers of the universe? I mean, those two guys in the Fuel City command center, why were they there? It's not necessary for the story, but it fleshes out the entire setting. And with Alonso, the entire setup of the rebels being brought in on a fake Imperial vessel (instead of, let's say, sneaking in attached to the Sulon Star) is a bit unnecessary, and it's even more unnecessary to put other people on the mission - Kyle could have made a convincing Imperial thanks to his Academy time. But we still get Alonso, and Alonso gets a backstory, and Kyle and Jan get to have an opinion on this backstory. This is kinda cool. I almost forget that I find it blasphemous to intersect the game story in the way that Dietz is doing, or in any way, for that matter. (By the way, the entire prison sequence is way shorter in the audio drama - they could have milked that for an additional 5 minutes if you ask me. In the novella, we have a lot more about Alonso, especially his thoughts about the people that want to see them, then about them as he sees them, especially about the lightsaber. And in the end, it's Kyle who tells him that he's the right guy for the mission.)

    Also, listening to the dramas, I actually found a scene in which Mon Mothma points out that Kyle hasn't formerly joined the Alliance, so he really is this mercenary guy that's dropping in and out. Doesn't fit with his character in the stories, though (especially the fact that he definitely wants to join up when Jan shows him the Morgan holo) - there's too little true stubborn independence, only "I'll tell you later" stuff that is the staple of basic mystery/conflict fiction. And actually, I can't find that sentence in the novella - it's entirely possible that the guy who did the adaptation improved on this.

    Also, would you agree that it might have been a good idea to use the Kyle actor as Luke and the Luke actor as Kyle? I'm finally getting used to Kyle's voice and can reconcile it a bit with that Jason Court image, but the character is still much too whiny.
     
  14. RC-1991

    RC-1991 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2009
    I'm not sure if I would switch them, just that I would fire the Kyle actor :p And yeah, the additions are kind of cool, and sort of make up for the overuse of audio elements from the movies.

    I just wish the Mothma suspicion angle was more well thought-through. The never-officially-joining makes a lot more sense as a reason for suspicion than the former Imperial angle, which AFAIK is completely out of line with Mon Mothma.
     
  15. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    Nov 21, 2000
    And that's the point, Dietz went for the Imperial angle, and the audio guy actually tried to salvage the never-joined-angle, but that only works so-so since he didn't throw out a ton of Dietz's stuff.

    Having finished the Jedi Knight audio version, I can add another thing that was left out (helping in turning this from a 2 hour to a 90 minute affair): It's completely missing Kyle's unconscious vision about the actual final battle between Hoth and Kaan, as seen through Tal's eyes (btw, did anyone notice that this guy Tal gets trapped in the Valley of the Jedi, and Tal is German for valley and... no? ok, carry on). Completely left out, which is a novelty for these audio dramas that are generally only adding stuff.

    What's more, the seduction/decision scene gives Jerec more power over Kyle, since he's actually working on pulling Kyle over. Other than that, it's a proper mess. He's running away towards his ship! Should we stop him? Hm? Yun? Oh, you are indecisive, Yun? Well, look, he's at the ship. Then there's stuff like Boc disappearing from the Sariss/Yun battle without an explanation, only to come back later as seen in the game/novella. But then the audio drama tops itself again by giving Kyle another dark side moment. The novella only has pretty regular fight scenes here. Also, we know have three versions of Yun being killed by Sariss; I obviously like the game best, with Sariss reacting to a sudden threat, killing Yun because of her natural skills, and not really regretting it; the novella has her screaming about it, how Kyle could have influenced her precious student into getting himself killed; and the audio drama has her talking to him long enough to find out he's gone light side, then consciously killing him. The game version works best because Sariss is a proper competent darksider in it, if you ask me. And the dark side ending of the game really stresses the fact that she's the ultimate opportunist, not in it for any connection to other beings, but only for her own best interests. But the audio drama has to make them all so emo. Jerec and his merry band seem to be extra-weak in the entire affair, not really forces to be reckoned with (Pic doesn't even have a lightsaber, Gorc gets shot faster than Greedo, Yun only learns Telekinesis through Rahn, and Sariss compliments him on saving a stromtrooper's life. Jerec then tries to collect money for the trip home, because Imperials don't take him serious (maybe because of his tried-and-untrue false flag strategies? hm...).

    Oh, another thing... all those technological marvels - isn't it fun that these aren't really important, but once again help in world building? And that future incarnations of the battle of Ruusan show first a very strange technological era that doesn't seem to have technological marvels, and finally we get the version that leads us to stuff like Knight Errant, of a kind of Dark Age in which we really wouldn't presume technology hitting a peak? And painting Ruusan as a planet that nobody would care about in the 1000 years to come, so Jedi might not leave their hightech stuff there? Was this ever explained?

    Anyway, for all our enjoyment, I have to use this and this to clean my ears.
     
  16. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    Nov 21, 2000
    BONUS LEVEL UNLOCKED!

    That's right - while october's discussion will slowly begin, Kyle has no interest in seeing this thread die down. Let's see - we're on Ruusan, we all like comics, there's crazy talk about discussing comics next year (either as a spin off thread or right here, instead of obscure novels only 2.5 people have actually read).

    So, how about JEDI VS SITH by Darko Macan?

    - How do we enjoy this depiction of the battle of Ruusan, and the events leading up to the thought bomb?

    - Regarding Ruusan's depiction - do you think the Bouncers were portrayed correctly? They come out of nowhere in Dietz' novellas (and, in hindsight, would have been great in the game - for info drops and for light/dark side decisions) and sounded like alien Mr. Burns in the audio drama. I think JvS really took the Bouncers and ran with them. Your opinions? Also, what about the planet itself, seeing how it only ends up as barren as it is in Jedi knight thanks to Bane?

    - Tal is missing. Well, what do we think about that? They got so many details right and didn't care to include Kyle's vision POV character?

    - In the end, nothing in this story is openly acknowledging the Jedi Knight game connection, since Ruusan isn't named in the game. But there's also no connection to the novellas except for the names and general events - there's no cheesy Katarn ancestor, nobody says Valley of the Jedi, we don't go out of our way to include other things like Sulon or Nar Shaddaa to have a bigger connection to Kyle's story. What do you think about that?
     
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  17. Tim Battershell

    Tim Battershell Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 3, 2012
    Unfortunately I don't have (and have never read) JvS, but what do you guys think of the Ruusan scenes in PoD?
     
  18. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    I actually wondered whether bringing JvS in would open the doors for PoD. I haven't read that one in ages, but I feel like it's one step removed from Jedi Knight again. The first step was giving Ruusan more weight by combining it with TPM's hints at Bane and Sith history. PoD, then, could have started off based on JvS and the entire Bane back story, not even knowing about Jedi Knight. I mean, it would have been a great chance to introduce Tal again, but according to the wook, he's not in there, either.

    So, I guess PoD's Ruusan wasn't that memorable to me. What do you think, do you see this depiction as the same planet Kyle (and you if you play the game) is moving on?
     
  19. Tim Battershell

    Tim Battershell Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 3, 2012
    PoD gave a little of the New Sith War backstory, Kaan's Brotherhood and the later battles. The book had to bounce to Rakata Prime between two quite brief visits to Ruusan to account for the 'Thought Bomb' so there wasn't overmuch description (one battlefield looking much like another!) - although there were Bouncers!

    Of course, the commemorative structures in the Valley of the Jedi haven't yet been put up (that starts in RoT, IIRC)!
     
  20. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jedi vs Sith is one of the two or three best comics the EU has ever put out. I've written extensively about this elsewhere. But I love this iteration of Bane. The novels butchered the character (and the very events of JvS) beyond all repair, but this was back when Bane was legitimately a badass and I love it.
     
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  21. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2000
    Yeah, this Bane totally bombs everything out of the water. Especially the Brotherhood of Darkness, who deserve being downgraded from Sith to Dark Jedi. The problem with the novel is its basic idea that you can use such a character as a main character. You can't. He's either a force of nature, or you have to end up with something twisted like Dexter (novel/first season) that really wants you to think. As entertaining as it is, SW literature could only make entertainment out of him, from the people who brought you Darth Vader kid's clothing and costumes accompanying the movie in which he kills Vader kills the younglings. Hey, Sith are cool. I'd love to do whatever I want and be a total PANTS about it.

    See, that's a good piece of the puzzle for me. "Bombed-out" Ruusan doesn't look like it has temples, or a proper valley or something. Having the Jedi work on the planet to make a good tomb out of it makes a lot of sense, I forgot that part.

    But it still makes me wonder why the galaxy forgot about the Valley altogether. Even the Jedi seem to have misplaced the info later on, as neither Rahn nor Jerec (retconned padawan to Jocasta "if the planet isn't in here, it doesn't exist" Nu, as I was reminded of while browsing the wook) know how to find it. And, oh, this might be a plothole - why didn't Bane or Zannah think about tapping the Valley's power?
     
  22. Tim Battershell

    Tim Battershell Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2012
    Did Bane or Zannah know that there was any power in the Valley to be had? As far as Bane was concerned, he'd wiped out the Brotherhood and achieved his objective - so no reason to go back, and he'd found another place that had a peaceful Dark-side ambiance, anyway!

    The memorial was not approved-of by the post-Reformation Jedi Council and the Essential Atlas states that the Hyperlanes were erased by iinterstellar expansion later. Apart from a Separatist Listening Post during the Clone Wars, the planet was left undisturbed until 10 BBY.

    Presumably only Force-sensitives can detect a Force Nexus. I'm not even sure how long one takes to form (assuming that the Thought Bomb was responsible).
     
  23. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    I fall on the other side about JvS - as the first regular story about the New Sith Wars era, it told us remarkably nothing about what was happening. Compared to, say, Knight Errant, it frankly doesn't hold up, IMO. While not as bad a bait-and-switch as Order 66 or The Truce at Bakura, I felt that the concentration of the stories of the little Jedi raggamuffins - characters I never actually ended up caring about - was wasted time better suited for a Star Wars Tales or a short story, not our introduction to one of the most significant battles in Star Wars history.
     
  24. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Eh, it told us quite a lot, just economically. The Jedi and Sith were both hard-pressed and exhausted. The Jedi were down to recruiting kids from across the galaxy. Lord Hoth was leading the Jedi on Ruusan, but several other Lords were active and Hoth was trying to gather them to keep pushing the Sith. He had a conflict with Farfalla, who was lighthearted and had a cheerful gang of Jedi; Hoth's people were exhausted and somewhat cynical from a long, long series of campaigns against the Sith, who were finally cornered. The Sith themselves were led by Kaan, who had made all Sith Lords and talked of equality. He gained his position as the result of a recent poisoning-and-abandoning-for-dead of Darth Bane, a veteran Sith who believed in the dark side itself, as opposed to Kaan and the others' ambition and backstabbing. Bane then stomped back into camp, tried to unite the Sith in cooperation, and failed. So he left the Sith to destroy themselves trying to kill the Jedi, while he took off to form his own Rule of Two to keep dark side power concentrated and cooperative. He found his apprentice in Rain. Meanwhile, Hoth willingly sprung Kaan's trap just to have the Sith defeated.

    There's a lot there.
     
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  25. Zorrixor

    Zorrixor Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2004
    And let us never forget that it gave us wooden battleships.

    'nuff said.