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Lit The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Champions of the Force!

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Grey1, Oct 3, 2013.

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  1. The_Four_Dot_Elipsis

    The_Four_Dot_Elipsis Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2005
    A terrifying thought.

    Is this the one where Daala wants to ram an Imperial Star Destroyer into Coruscant?
     
  2. blackmyron

    blackmyron Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 29, 2005
    I believe so. And it was going to hit Coruscant in a way that it was going to devastate the planet and kill hundreds of billions of people. But fortunately Luke, Han and...

    ... no, IIRC, it was Kyp who stumbled across them and then rammed the ISD with his Plot Device-class SuperShip.
     
  3. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    This whole trilogy only existed to establish the setpiece in which the SUN CRUSHER DUELS the DEATH STAR PROTOTYPE.
     
  4. The Compeer

    The Compeer Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jun 12, 2013
    Still better than 9 books that only existed to establish the setpiece THE PREQUELS 2: THIS TIME, IT'S NOT PERSONAL!*


    *Because that would require characters to display emotion, and that sounds hard.
     
  5. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    They're actually pretty similar in the sense that the Jedi Academy trilogy is to some extent a rehash of the original trilogy in the sense that Kyp's character arc is essentially Luke's arc going the opposite route combined with the redemptive element of Anakin's arc -- which was all that existed of Anakin's arc prior to the prequels, and is more or less a condensed version of Anakin's arc now. I'd argue that Jedi Academy trilogy is superior because it's first of all rehashing the core themes of the saga -- redemption isn't present in the prequel trilogy out of necessity but it's pretty important -- and not merely superficially going through the motions and deliberating copying events rather than simply hitting the same or similar notes. The conclusion of Kyp's arc is a positive one, even if he died in the Sun Crusher, because live or die, he went out as a Jedi and a hero. The same can't be said for the three-year-old badass in this story.

    Regardless of the quality of the prose, the story is fundamentally superior just because the good characters that turn bad are redeemed, whether it's Kyp or Terpfen. Characters that are fundamentally good people ultimately choose to remain good when push comes to shove.
     
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  6. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    Nov 21, 2000
    Yeah, that's a case of the name of a Jedi being needed, but not a Jedi or any kind of character being needed.
     
  7. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    Nov 21, 2000
    The above was actually meant as a response to something earlier in the thread, oh my... about Streen being given command.

    So... what about Tol Sivron, what do we make of him? How does he fit into a position of power within the Empire - even if it is just replacement lead villain flying around in a Death Star prototype? With Qwi, we have the idea of the Empire acknowledging aliens' abilities as ressources, but not as something to be rewarded. But Sivron is different, isn't he?

    In addition, taking YJK and TOTJ into account, KJA really was into Ryloth and the Twi'lek, wasn't he? Why did the Twi'lek become such a staple of the SW galaxy even though there's just two characters of the type in the third movie, in the opening action? All of that happened before videogames allowed people to, well, look at the backside of a female Twi'lek for hours. How big was KJA's influence in keeping the "Oola race" in the collective mind (eventually resulting in Aayla's creation, movie inclusion and the Twi'lek presence in TCW, up to tuff like Darth Maulina)?
     
  8. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    Nov 21, 2000
    Harder Better Faster Stronger.

    One, is there any area where KJA doesn't feel the urge - or the need - to one-up the movies?

    Two, would it be wrong to have books that just exist to work up to a setpiece like that, if they're at least going broke on the fun aspect? I'm suddenly reminded of Mindor having Luke fight a duel against the vibroshields only to reveal in the end that it was completely made up... wait a moment, is the Jedi Academy Trilogy one of Geptun's holoadventures?
     
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  9. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Yes. Yes it is.
     
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  10. Dr. Steve Brule

    Dr. Steve Brule Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2012
    I keep seeing this posted here, but Mindor is clearly not supposed to be all made up, since the holoadventure mentioned at the end of the book has stuff which doesn't actually happen in the novel itself. I do think that might have been a more novel way to go about it, though.
     
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  11. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Mindor is supposed to be based on a real event, but the veracity of the novel is called into question. The stuff Luke mentions at the end is stuff that he wanted removed, but there's an implication that there's untrue elements that Luke didn't find as objectionable. The premise of the novel was that all Star Wars novels are like this, and consequently stuff that is in error, or is subsequently retconned, is an inaccuracy introduced by the writer, e.g. Even Piell in Jedi Twilight or the Clone Wars dates in the Thrawn trilogy.

    This would generally be in conflict with the canon policy, I think, in which everything is equally true at the same time in some sort of uncertainty principle.
     
  12. Lugija

    Lugija Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2009
    Reading this book for the first time this year the descriptions of Sivron felt weird. He was described as looking like a typical Twi'lek, which at the time was this:

    [​IMG]

    After Aayla Secura it felt jarring to read about how ugly the Twi'leks were.

    You know, if the new superweapons had ended in this trilogy, this would have been a good way to build up from the films. The films have these two big Death Stars, but who created them? How were they made? The Suncrusher was perhaps too much one-upping, but I liked to see that the superweapon designers were campy villains who had four-hour-meetings where they discussed if the next weapon should have "Doom" or "Terror" in its name.
     
  13. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 16, 2012
     
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  14. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013
    I finished reading this book (being on vacation, I read very quickly and quite a lot) and I was surprised how relatively soon in the book the Exar Kun encounter took place. I thought it was the final event of the book (though given what happens after, it really should've been!). However, it was one of the best villain encounters in the Bantam EU. The Jedi students coming together the way they did probably would've given me the Cool Chills if it had been in a movie. But the Sun Crusher vs. Death Star vs. Daala's fleet vs. the New Republic was a little silly.
     
  15. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 19, 1999
    Pah, they weren't real Jedi - they worked together! They didn't slag each other off, or sabotage each other fighters or duel to the death!
     
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  16. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    I'm thinking that in KJA's mind, the Jedi students that took out Exar Kun were as advanced as Luke is in Return of the Jedi.

    So Exar Kun might well have been considered superior to Palpatine and Vader. We know that KJA intended Kyp to be more powerful than Luke.

    Am I the only one that remembers when Exar Kun had "Darth Revan status" and SW forums were littered with "Exar Kun vs Darth Vader" threads in which fans argued vehemently for Exar Kun's superiority? Now he's largely forgotten by fans.
     
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  17. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 15, 2006
    It absolutely should have happened much later on in the book, but ugh, it wasn't a good villain encounter at all. A good idea with poor execution (see my post a page or two ago about why it sucks --- basically, they all hold hands and think happy thoughts, and then the bad ghost disappears when they hit him with their lightsabers).

    Yyyyeahhhhh. KJA probably did think that. But ***t, KJA, are you kidding us? If you wanted these students to believably mature into Jedi Knights over the course of one trilogy, then you should have actually spent three books writing deeply about their training. Instead, what you did was dedicate only one of the three volumes to their training, and you didn't take it any deeper than "Luke told them to feel the Force. Luke told them to meditate. They were very amazed!" This trilogy is barely about Jedi training at all, and even then it's on the most superficial level possible. The idea that these students are even close to being "Champions of the Force" by the end is laughable.
     
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  18. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Well, that goes back to my original post about this trilogy starting the trend of having all the significant developments occur off the page. The eponymous champions of the Force are tertiary characters in the story, and they don't have any development at all.
     
  19. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013
    Well...how would you have Jedi kill a Sith spirit?
     
  20. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 15, 2006
    I would write something more complex than "They all held hands and felt the Force and thus they were able to kill an incorporeal ghost with corporeal lightsabers because they FELT THE FORCE!!!!!" That's basically what KJA wrote. It's a concept with no substance; an idea with no explanation; a scene that would have worked had a more competent author wrote it. It wasn't a bad idea, but it was terribly, terribly done.
     
  21. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013
    Okay, I get your point. Still, what would you have done?
     
  22. AlyxDinas

    AlyxDinas Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 12, 2010
    Have their collective force of will shine so brightly in the Force that they literally annihilate Kun's spirit without activating a lightsaber? It seems to be a moment best suited to the metaphysical. It's supposed to be a triumph of the spirit, after all.
     
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  23. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    [​IMG]

    Plus it's how Kun was killed in the first place.
     
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  24. The_Four_Dot_Elipsis

    The_Four_Dot_Elipsis Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Mar 3, 2005
    Oh yes.

    Naga Sadow was a big deal too in those days. Now he's dime a dozen.

    I'm... not complaining.
     
  25. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    I'm somewhat nostalgic for a time when the Sith were a bit more esoteric. The Sith in general are a dime a dozen now, and it has produced some interesting characters, but it has also produced a lot of forgettable ones.

    Being a Dark Lord of the Sith used to mean something, man.
     
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