Lit The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Tatooine Ghost!

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Grey1, Jul 2, 2013.

  1. Gorefiend Chosen One

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    Denning often does throw in other EU stuff, so I am not really surprised it is especially visible here.

    Afaik Han and Leia are under the impression that Pellaeon as the Captain is calling the shots during the whole event, so a Chiss Grand Admiral would still come as a complete surprise.


    Afaik Umak Leth invented the Gun on location at Byss, so it would have to be something else.
  2. Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group

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    I got the impression that they got the impression that there was someone above Pellaeon, especially since they know Pellaeon as a pretty standard (= boring) officer. And even if I'm mistaken about that, they'd have to combine the Chimaera's brand new effectiveness with those glowing red eyes.
    That was rhetorical. But since you mention it, Denning could have written a book about Han and Leia hunting that scientist Umak Leth who's rumoured to build a new superweapon and is baking huge lenses out of Tatooine quartz. He didn't, he chose Thrawn for this, and thus a painting came into play. Leth hiding plans inside a painting is of course possible, and could be cute, but it wouldn't be a meaningful connection like Thrawn showing interest in a painting. The latter is offering the reader an "I see what you did there" moment.
    Last edited by Grey1, Jul 10, 2013
  3. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

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    Why was the Jedi Council rejecting Shmi's calls? Not exactly wizard of them. I prefer my own head-canon that she was unable to get in touch with them because she's enslaved, rather than the idea that Yoda, Mace Windu or Obi-wan was snubbing Shmi and ignoring her messages. The story also didn't explain why she needed to reach as high up as the council themselves to discover the status of a mere padawan.

    Also, there was an implication that even when the Coruscant bureaucrat told her Anakin was alive, that bureaucrat was actually going out of his way to do a good deed. He was supposed to be rejecting her calls, like that is the Jedi Order's policy for all parents.
  4. Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group

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    Well, it would make a lot of sense if that was their policy. The basic idea behind young Jedi being raised by their new family - the order - and the Force, of them being taken so early in life that they did not bond with their parents, is what it is. In itself, it does make sense, but it's seldom seen at face value since out culture officially values family and heritage really really much. Kids growing up in the Jedi Temple wouldn't really know what to do with those people who are their biological source and who might have given them away to a higher calling out of love out of respect for the universe and the Force or something.

    So there would be no protocol for those people calling in how "their own little Jedi" is doing at Hogwarts. And with Shmi, it's the first time a parent had enough time to bond with their kid, just as Anakin is a special case of having been influenced by the separation of his mother. And the Jedi Order's stance on this would be to discourage anything that might distract Anakin. Especially since he's proven to be unstable when it comes to his mother when being asessed by the council.

    But actually, anything off about the situation is created by the book itself. Now, why would we assume that Shmi tried to write to Anakin and send him cookies? In Ep1, she tells him to go and not look back so he can have a better life. This also helps us understand why Anakin hasn't tried a gazillion times to sneak out of a mission and free his mother from slavery. The Jedi, meanwhile, have one strategy to make any kid into a Jedi, and it doesn't include dwelling on the kid's parents, and devise strategies to let them live a nice secure life on Dantooine. If everything goes right, Anakin will overcome the individual need to help one person he likes, and instead he'll help the Force and the greater good. Jedi Training is conceived as a fundamental thing, not like some kind of wizard boarding school.


    Now, the part that TG did give an interesting spin is Qui-Gon indirectly helping Shmi - helping her to help herself. That's extremely in character with him. So is him not telling Anakin about it, because he knows that the boy will need to leave his mother behind to achieve his purpose. Even telling him to calm his sorrows about his mother would be a step in the wrong direction since it would only affirm the connection to Shmi. If Anakin can only be at peace now if Shmi is safe, he'll be like that his entire life. Still, Qui-Gon has formed a bond with another individual in the living force, and he does his best to help her. Actually, the best if you factor in that this one item is crucial not only in gaining freedom, but also in meeting and living with Cliegg.
  5. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    While Shmi speculates that Qui-Gon was responsible- the first source to actualy state it outright, was I think The Life & Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi.

    The scene is an extended version of a TPM movie scene.

    bolded lines are in movie- conversation continues in book:

    Obi Wan said, "The boy will not pass the Council's training. He's too old."
    Qui-Gon replied, "Anakin will become a Jedi, I promise you."
    "Do not defy the Council, Master ... not again."
    "I shall do what I must, Obi-Wan."
    "If you just follow the code, you would be on the Council. They will not go along with you this time."
    Qui Gon placed his hand on Obi-Wan's shoulder and said "You still have much to learn, my young apprentice."
    Obi-Wan gazed out across the surrounding skyscrapers. "What if the boy decides he wants to be with his mother?"
    "That would be Anakin's choice," Qui-Gon said. "However, I've already taken a step to help his mother. I've arranged for a courier to go to Tatooine and deliver a Tobal lens to Shmi Skywalker."
    "A Tobal lens?" Obi-Wan said. "You mean the crystal used to convert heat to light, the type used to power Renatta photon drives?"
    Qui-Gon nodded. "The Toyarian who owns Shmi won't accept Republic credits, and he would be suspicious, to say the least, if Shmi suddenly had any large amount of currency to buy her freedom. However, I believe that if Shmi acquired an item such as a Tobal lens, she would recognize its value as a bargaining chip."
    Obi-Wan shook his head. "You can be most baffling, Master."
    Qui-Gon shrugged. "As I said, you have much to learn."
  6. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    That bothered me some as well but I assumed it was as @Grey1 said, that the Council was not going to encourage Anakin's attachment to his mother. They wanted her to accept their message that he was fine, and move on.
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  7. instantdeath Force Ghost

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    There actually is a great Tales story about Mace Windu having the option to look his parents up, with the last panel having him delete their information from his datapad (or something like that). Considering the Jedi order is supposed to be irrevocably flawed at this point, I don't have trouble believing they would reject her calls.
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  8. Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group

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    Well, I'm not even sure not returning her calls is all that flawed. While it would be nice to not hurt anyone's feelings ever, giving away your kid is something with certain consequences. Aren't there similar rules for adoption in real life? If anything, there would have been a little talk with Qui-Gon whether he had felt obliged to explain to Shmi how this Jedi adoption thing works. Yes, it's removed from mundane emotions, but that's what your general metaphysical mystical order of monks is.

    Also, I don't think the council itself was responsible for answering her message. "Oh, master Yoda, when you've finished meditating on the state of the universe, would you take 237 calls from concerned parents?" There's probably some awkward "little people in the SW universe" story in there of a call center agent going through his superior because he just feels like the eyes of this lady are so special, finally trying to find out if the boy is ok by stalking classes and identifying the padawan with those same intense eyes.
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  9. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    I would assume that under so-called "normal" circumstances for Jedi adoption, the parents are more familiar with how the process works. But Shmi lived outside the Republic and therefore had probably never heard of any parents whose child had been "identified early". I'd say it was up to Qui-Gon to explain it to her.

    And the Temple did assure her that he was safe.
  10. Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group

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    So, that new Denning book (which, reminder, we're not supposed to discuss in here) surely shows a lot of anti-Denning feelings. But simply based on this old book (and Star By Star), what were your expectations? What are Denning's strengths and weaknesses as of Tatooine Ghost, and are they indicators of what the author would later become famous and infamous for?
  11. tjace Force Ghost

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    Grey1, I hope you'll forgive me for talking about all of Denning's work as a whole, looking at the progression, instead of just focusing on TG.

    I liked TG and I loved SbS. I thought Denning was one of the better authors in the EU for a long time, with faults yes, but he always made things happen and promised exciting things in the future. TG is probably the tamest Denning novel I've read, as I don't remember anything approaching gore or innuendo in this book. Probably the closest thing to an authorial tic that I remember was the Squibs, as annoying side characters who always seem to be a step ahead of our heroes, similar to the Sullustan and Ewok from Dark Nest (Juun and Tarfang I think?). The important things, like prequel tie-ins with Kitster, EU nods with Thrawn, and correct character development with Leia, were all done very well IMO. The White Eyes thing is a bit annoying in retrospect, but at the time I thought it was brilliant and couldn't wait to see what would come of it.

    Star by Star showed more of Denning, of both his good and bad sides. It is still one of my favorite EU books. About the only thing I disliked was how Corran suddenly lost his mind during the evacuation of Eclipse, but it was a very small thing in comparison to the rest of the book (though a sign of things to come). I admit that the concept of the young Jedi being sent to Myrkr instead of Luke and Kyle Katarn is a bit weak, but I can accept it. Other than that, brilliance, in both the wide plot areas of Coruscant and Myrkr.

    I sort of liked Dark Nest. The Killiks were an interesting, different enemy, and I liked the plotlines of Alema, Jacen, and Jaina. Saba was awesome in this series, getting to stand in the limelight by training Leia and fighting Welk, but never doing anything too ridiculous to believe. There were many decisions that confused me, however. Danni Quee, one of my favorite characters from NJO, banished by Denning to Zonoma Sekot forever. Cal Omas, scion of Alderaan and the man who should be bringing back the glories of the Republic, acting like a dictator and forcing unnecessary and artificial strain between the Alliance and Jedi. Further highlighting this ridiculous divide is the rivalry between Corran and Kyp. While these two could make for great rivals, as arrogant as they both are, I don't think they would fight about something like this. By the end of NJO, Kyp was becoming less of a rebel and more a supporter of Luke and authority in general, at least in comparison to where he was in Vector Prime. Corran believing that the Jedi should stand by the government no matter what makes no sense to anyone who read Stackpole's Corran. Corran defected from CorSec, partially because the government was corrupt. He fought against the Empire, the established galactic government. He repeatedly disobeyed orders and showed a defiant attitude while in Rogue Squadron. A man who would rather die than join a despot like Isard or Tavira. Overall, I still liked the books, but there were definite signs of trouble.

    Jacen turns to the dark side in the next series, LOTF. From what I hear, this story concept was Denning's. Not entirely implausible, but I think Jacen's tendency to think things through rather than trusting in emotions or visions or any other spur-of-the-moment phenomena would make him a poor candidate for turning to the dark side. There's also the fact that he's achieved oneness with the Force. But hey! All that stuff is from the NJO, and we're trying to ignore and discredit that completely. But I didn't learn about all that until later, when Invincible came out and I joined the boards here. I liked all of Denning's entries as I read them though. They were consistently more exciting, or at least it seemed that way after Allston would give a good setup and Traviss would piddle that away and focus on Mandalorians, and in the third book, BOOM! Things would happen. Tempest saw Han and Leia figuring out the truth behind the Corellians' actions, and the Jedi starting to figure out that something was off. Tresina Lobi's death was well done, and a good use of a relatively unknown character. Inferno let us all live vicariously through Luke as he gave Jacen the beatdown of the millenium, which satisfied some of my anger at the cheap way that Mara died. On the downside, he started ruining Tahiri's character by having her be obsessed with her (dead) teen boyfriend, which would later get a notorious scene as Denning made her continue to go after (much) younger men. After Revelation (if anything was revealed, it was Traviss's true colors), I was furious at her version of Mandalorians, and so I didn't mind Luke leaving them to be killed by Jacen in Invincible. I also liked the whole nanomachine weapon that got dropped on Mandalore. I can see now that it wasn't professional behavior or good writing to get into a petty contest like that, but at the time emotions were high and I was satisfied with that payback. Another of Denning's characteristics is his tendency to notice the YJK series, using a lot of characters like Raynar etc, and with the flashbacks at the beginning of each chapter. Which makes it all the more tragic when Jaina kills Jacen (really messily too, much more than we need from SW. Lightsabers and blasters cauterize for a reason), fulfilling the twin duel that the Yuuzhan Vong and the Shadow Academy always wanted, despite a lifetime fighting against that fate. Tahiri's molestation scene and Daala's appointment to CoS left me wary concerning later books, but I was young then and hadn't yet acquired proper cynicism befitting a fan.

    It's about 4 am here so I'll wind this down :p. I remember when I reviewed Abyss I said something to the effect of "FOTJ is not a train!" After hearing what went down in Vortex and having some time to reconsider Invincible and the basic premise of LOTF, I realized that I had been sold a bunch of cheap, shallow books that were all show and no substance. I haven't read any new books by him since.
  12. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

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    I only read Tattooine Ghost. But

    Strengths: Great characterization, especially Han and Leia's conversations. Their argument over having a family was fascinating, exploring the implications of turning to the dark side. I hope to see more of that in Star Wars books, instead of not really addressing it like JAT did with Kyp. The painting that required water with the rebel communication codes was pretty epic as a goal, and I liked the contrast for how the PT characters and OT characters handled the same setting.

    Weakness: Doesn't pay too much attention to PT-canon at this point, and makes certain characters omniscient in a contrived way, like Kitster Banai knowing about Shmi's death and Anakin's response to it. Also, it is hard to tell who is stating the dialogue judging by every Thrawn scene. A lot of it dragged with the chase in the desert for the painting, but ignoring potentially interesting plot threads like Rogue Squadron's mission and the story from Thrawn's pov.
  13. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    Jul 19, 1999
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    I would suggest you're better off just reading TG VR!

    Though, I wonder what happened to the guy who wrote TG? Then again I wonder what the hell happened to Traviss after Hard Contact? Both of their work went straight to hell, with Allston trying to make a whole set of crap plot threads work.
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  14. Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group

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    That's the real downside of all the connections that are made between the PT and the OT.

    It's the fundamental tragedy in the OT that they nothing about their family's past, and the PT is über-tragic showing the loss of the Jedi as well. But at the same time, it's good to start with a clean slate. Luke and Leia can achieve greatness without being dragged down by prophecy, and they only hear little about their destiny. Only enough to give them a goal, and very little about what could be expected of them. Luke only finds out that he could turn out as evil as Vader pretty late - compare this to Anakin Solo going through the motions as a pre-teen.

    So, should they find out everything? Is this maybe today's obsession with "knowing everything" (besides the fact that EU always tended to follow the illusion of "knowing everything")? Anakin's podrace photos would turn up on some facebook page, and Luke tweeted about the fact that Vader was his father directly from the medical bay on the Falcon? The problem is, as much as you can find great ways to hint at the past, like someone hearing from Beru about Anakin's reaction, or the sandpeople legend of the angry ghost, TG goes the extra mile by having Leia's intuition fill out the blanks correctly. It's all a bit much.

    As much as I facepalmed at the plot device of having R2 own a ROTS DVD in Dark Nest, what I actually like about those scenes is that Luke and Leia don't really find out anything about their mother. They vaguely knew about that Naboo senator beforehand, but the holos don't tell them anything. A much more tasteless version would have been if she'd recorded a holo for them just before giving birth or something. Which, thinking about it, is pretty close to Shmi's journal...

    Which do you prefer? The slight mystery, the tragedy of the heroes never truly finding out? Or a universe in which no information is truly lost, and everyone's interested in uncovering the past completely?
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  15. Nobody145 Force Ghost

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    I'm not really a big fan of Denning's writing post-DNT, I actually tolerate that trilogy, its just from Inferno onwards that things just completely fall apart.

    Denning focuses on Han and Leia a lot, as a close couple and as very smart and dangerous people, and here and in SbS there are plenty of Han and Leia moments and them kicking ass. The problem is... TG is set in relatively close to RotJ, so Han and Leia are both still in their prime. By SbS, they're past that prime but aren't quite out of it yet. By LotF they should be retired and enjoying grandkids considering the movies had a happy ending, the GCW had a happy ending, the NJO had a happy ending... but LotF is not a happy story (even compared to the Vong War) so it just degenerates into more running battles.

    Before I completely get lost in another pointless rant, what I mean is that Denning obviously likes writing about Han and Leia, they're great, but their time has to pass eventually. Tatooine's Ghost, when they're newly married, thinking about kids, following them as a couple is great. Seeing them in Recovery patching up their marriage after Han recovered from his grief over Chewbacca's death, is pretty good. From DNT onwards it just gets... awkward, to say the least. Denning keeps writing them as like an action couple, and while Leia can get away with it as a Jedi, at his post-NJO age as a normal human Han can't, so it drags down the story, and that's not even going into the poorly developed relations between Han and Leia and everyone else aside from immediate family (Leia's an official Jedi but not like she actually goes on any Jedi missions, she just spends all her time with Han in supposed semi-retirement but keep getting dragged into the crisis of the month). Here in TG its just Han and Leia and it works out mostly well, and in SbS the Jedi and New Republic government were finally starting to work together more but we don't see much of that from DNT onwards. When its still Han and Leia later on, Han acting like he did in TG, without acknowledging all the changes that have taken place over the decades of their lives, it is jarring to say the least. Not just being weighed down by grief but that Han isn't a young man anymore with a fast draw and the ability to dodge anymore, and as a generic Jedi fighter, Leia isn't that unique anymore, compared to TG where Leia was still high-ranking in the government but just on a sort of vacation with Han.

    And TG didn't have that much gore I think. SbS had a good deal of violent and gory moments, but that was normal for the NJO (with the Vong and their pain-oriented culture and all that). I sometimes glance through TG in a bookstore and wish Denning's other major Star Wars books (from Inferno onwards really) would be closer to TG rather than SbS, in terms of atmosphere, gore and plot development.

    After LotF and FotJ I don't really trust any of the authors involved, even Allston. Mercy Kill alleviated some of the bad memories from FotJ, in that it wasn't bad, but I didn't adore it either.

    Just to add to the TG discussion, it isn't much, but kind of glad they showed Watto wasn't that bad, relatively speaking, especially compared to other potential masters (such as a Hutt), such as when Shmi got her freedom and he dug out the remote but turned out he had turned off the explosive long ago. His official reason was that he didn't want a depressed Shmi wandering off and blowing herself up, but at least it showed Shmi's life wasn't completely horrible after Anakin left. Although she did die eventually, but still. Denning has a habit of referencing his own characters (as most recurring Star Wars authors do) and honestly I wouldn't mind Shmi's journal being referenced at some point in the future, to show where the Skywalkers had come from, not literally from the Force itself since that's still up for debate, but that Shmi raised a mostly good boy... annoying, but good-hearted, just growing up in the middle of a galactic war didn't help. I'd certainly rather see more tidbits from Shmi's life rather than old holorecordings of Anakin's worst moments preserved in Artoo's memory (especially when they're not really relevant to any main plots and is there just to inflict mental trauma).
  16. Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group

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    I think the toughest thing in TG would be Han's desert ordeal and his relativey lengthy recovery (SW tends to ignore stuff like that after 15 minutes max, doesn't it) and the implication of Kitster's torture, "visually" culminating in the broken finger thing (which seems a bit... gratuitiously elaborate, seeing how it was tied to the concept of him preserving that fascinating painting - if the sandpeople had understood the need for the action, they would have copied him or not punished him for doing it; if they didn't understand, he wouldn't even have gotten to the tank; so it has to be some kind of no-reason-at-all sadism. "But how can we truly know what these strange creatures think when they do something?"). On the post-NJO gore chart that would probably be a 0.5 or something like that.
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  17. Dr. Steve Brule Force Ghost

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    I enjoy Tatooine Ghost a lot, and think it's Denning's best work by far. However, I do think my view of it has gone down slightly in the years since, not because of me not liking the rest of Denning's stuff per se, but my belief that TG was setting stuff up that it apparently wasn't (and on the other hand, I would never have thought it was instead a sign of Killiks to come).

    Star by Star, though, I just really disliked from the start and always have. If anything, my view of that has gone up when contrasted to Denning's later works, though.
  18. Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group

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    First - what are expectations that TG could give you for then-future books? It was marketed as a stand-alone, afer all, filling in a blank instead of contributing to the development of the ongoing timeline. This is not a question directed only at you, Steve, but an open invitation for everyone.

    Next, I agree with you that the Killiks were not something that seemed to have been set up by this novel. We find out that there's this ancient race that the artist never personally saw. But it is strange to put this evolutional dead end on the planet that gave us Bail Organa and Leia's hair buns. It's biological diversity, but at the same time it's like the discovery of a highly developed sentient race of dinosaurs on our planet. And then, those dinosaurs suddenly reappear somewhere else entirely! But if anything, they have devolved, because their hive mind doesn't seem like something that's been around for millenia, but rather like an indigenous people marginalized and forced to work in low income jobs. Well, not unlike that mind-harp thing in the Lando books, actually. However, TOR managed to confuse me further since Killiks are not only suddenly contemporaries of a highly developed human society, making an availability of all kinds of studies pretty plausible (there are actually subquests dealing with scientific and with Sithly torture studies), but also still pretty much just brutes you don't communicate with. But maybe I got the wrong impression from TG's painting, and the Killiks were never supposed to be an ancient culture, but rather a bunch of creatures that existed and fascinated people, not unlike dinosaurs in the end? And Killik Twilight, Leia's fond childhood memory, is kind of like the SW version of The Land Before Time, projecting human emotions and knowledge of evolutional development into non-human creatures?
  19. Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group

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    Any meaningful last words?

    Our great bouquet of discussion ideas include Thrawn's character as shown through a bunch of actions and one scene in particular; the Killik being introduced to the EU in an extremely understated way; Denning's authorial tics at the start of his SW career; Han and Leia as seen by Troy Denning; this filling a prequel spot for HTTE by creating situations that don't seem to work with a prequel; Qui-Gon as portrayed through the lense of Shmi's recollections; and connecting the PT with the OT by means of Leia finding out about Anakin's Tatooine life.

    One thing I always meant to bring up is how Luke apparently already knows a lot about Anakin at this point, and how a lot of the information would be easy to get (especially the podrace information). While Zahn is setting up information as the greatest good and the best motivator for plots; Denning is pouring information out in buckets. Everyone has something to tell, and they all meet up perfectly. Anakin isn't set up as that mythical boy that gave hope to the slaves but that nobody knows the details about any more, because slaves didn't really write Holonet blogs; and Vader most likely tried to destroy information about his past identity because he couldn't stand himself anymore. In Denning's universe, information isn't diamonds hidden in the ground; it's just like the information age world Nolan got spectacularly wrong in The Dark Knight Rises (all information, even the outlandish like your cat burglar past or your shadow ninja training past can be found before the plot even starts moving, and an USB drive able to magically delete all traces of your virtual persona is a holy grail) - only that here, Vader is 'realistically' unable to delete stuff from the PT/the past; but in addition to that, even the secret stuff has been posted on some MySpace account or something, so everyone seems to know what Anakin became.

    How does Luke knowing about this stuff influence the story? Does it help the reader see this less as a mystery (because c'mon, we all saw the prequels) and more like Leia's personal journey of confronting this stuff that she's been avoiding since Bakura? While you reading it, do you feel like it's a bunch of great Leia moments, or rather a bit of EU fan service designed to somehow mention the PT and the OT in the same breath?
  20. krtmd Force Ghost

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    In my case, a bit of both.

    I think the stuff Leia is dealing with in regard to her father and her worries about having a family ring true, and I think the characterization of the Han/Leia relationship is spot-on. All in all, it felt like a strong Leia book - while also being a bit of a fanwank in regard to tying the PT and the OT together around her character development. Particularly the diary of Shmi, which just feels improbable to me
  21. Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group

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    Improbable is a good expression - I think less would have been more. The general idea of a diarye34w [Look, my kitten just jumped on the laptop for the first time. I think I'll keep those extra letters in.] is really good. But including an edited podrace "broadcast"? Candid camera on Watto, Cliegg, and Owen? And the entire idea of "don't look back" clashing with "I'll pretend I'll give this to you one day"? All a bit too much.

    In the same vein, I think Beru's sister relating something that Beru told second-hand, or the Tusken legend making sense if you factor in Anakin's family history, that's done well. Kitster having turned into a high-class art lover determined to fight for the adopted heritage of the daughter of his childhood friend... too much.


    Tallying the good and bad Anakin did and caused in his life as a lead-in to Leia's decision to have children... isn't it strange to end on the downside note that Anakin did not only slaughter a Tusken camp, but also caused the cycle of violence to escalate? Wouldn't it have been better structure to move backwards through the prequels, to slowly rediscover Vader's original innocence? The chronological approach's one strength is, well, being chronological. A kind of "history lesson" approach, like a source book.
  22. Havac Former Moderator

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    Yeah, less is more when it comes to doing this kind of delicate tie-in work.

    As for the progression, I think going backwards wouldn't really solve it -- the issue is that he went evil, and ending on, "But he was innocent once!" only reinforces the idea that Leia can't trust that her sweet, innocent children won't someday turn out evil like Darth Vader. The core thing Leia needs to come to understand is that what drove Anakin to the dark side was a long chain of events that went wrong, weaknesses in his character, and a Jedi Order structure that exacerbated his weaknesses -- all things that modern-day Jedi can combat, rather than an inherent pull to the dark side. In that respect, either direction can work as long as Leia gets the message.

    The weird thing is that TG seems to go more with the idea that all Leia really needed to know was that Anakin was a sweet kid, and to go "Whoah!" and reconcile that with her vision of Anakin. Which is definitely relevant to breaking her conception of who her father was and helping her understand and forgive him, but it's not really enough to resolve the kids conundrum.
  23. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    I think Leia coming to understand her father's one-time innocence helped her to forgive him, and I also think it showed her that no one is immune to making bad choices. Sure, her children could choose Vader's path, but so could any child, and there was no reason for her to believe that hers would be especially prone.

    Maybe I read too much into that?
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  24. krtmd Force Ghost

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    I'd agree with that. And that you can have no future if you fear the past.
  25. Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group

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    Nov 21, 2000
    star 4
    To be totally honest, I wasn't even sure why Leia changed her mind in the end. Could have been adrenaline rush, like people being more likely to date when they meet on a suspension bridge, or in a bus that has to maintain a certain speed in order not to explode.

    I agree that simple "innocence" wouldn't mean anything as an argument, and neither would "but he did good as well", actually, since, well, how much comfort is it that Jacen saved people's lives before killing them themselves and dying as an estranged madman?

    The trouble is that there isn't really a good single answer why Anakin became evil. One could say that the lack of friends and family fed his frustration and disillusion. Then again, when he snapped, it was always because something had happened to his friends and family, or because his surrogate father Palpatine led him there. Heck, killing Palpatine to save Luke in the end isn't even different from killing the Jedi to save pregnant Padmé - it's family first, society second. So maybe the best answer is that the Jedi indeed shouldn't have started training him if he didn't grow up on an indoctrination of peace and goodwill, since Jedi Training means instant power, but if you have learned more basic lessons before, like love for special individuals and a distrust of a society that consists of egocentric people like slave owners and mob bosses, you don't learn a Jedi's restraint. But then again there's Dooku, who still lost his belief in good. In that regard, Obi-Wan as seen in the movie isn't going on a mad rage because he's not losing his mother, and because he's not tempted with the chance of saving wife and child. And when the Jedi are wiped out, even the younglings, Yoda and Obi-Wan have no problem mowing through the clone troopers at the temple, or searching out the Sith Lords with, let's be honest, the intent to kill them. It's a slightly more focussed berserk mode only because Anakin had more targets to go against.

    So, how do you give Leia a lesson to learn if there really isn't any? Which leads back to the question why Leia should have had problems with having offspring at all. Learning to forgive her father, okay. Thinking of it, Tatooine Ghost should have been about Leia setting on the name Anakin for her next child, especially since Han preferred Han, Jr. That would even have been a chance for Denning to bookend Anakin Solo's life instead of Jacen's, but hey.