Discussion in 'EU Community' started by The Loyal Imperial, Mar 20, 2013.
Aww that hurt didnt it?
Mobile sock of s65horsey
266 Squadron (3) vs. Jedi Starfighter Corps (2)
Nrin Vakil vs. Anakin Skywalker
Tosche Station Power Converters (2) vs. Nobody move! I've dropped me brain (3)
Tycho Celchu vs. Nial Declann
[hl=grey]Trade-Bait[/hl] (1) vs. [hl=black]Requiem for a Draft[/hl] (4)
Edor Crespin vs. Derek "Hobbie" Klivian
The Not So Avenging Avengers (4) vs. PRENNTACULAR (1)
Alinn Varth TRUMPED with Inyri Forge (forfeit) vs. Shawnkyr Nuruodo
Yeah that was easy enough -- agreed.
266 Squadron (3) vs. Jedi Starfighter Corps (3)
Octa Ramis vs. Lowbacca TRUMPED with Tesar Sebatyne
Tosche Station Power Converters (3) vs. Nobody move! I've dropped me brain (3)
Nym vs. Bela Hara
[hl=grey]Trade-Bait[/hl] (1) vs. [hl=black]Requiem for a Draft[/hl] (5)
Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. Kell Tainer
The Not So Avenging Avengers (4) vs. PRENNTACULAR (2)
Lando Calrissian TRUMPED with Dash Rendar (forfeit) vs. Imperial Ace
Guess I'd better prepare my team arguments.
Mobile sock of s65horsey
What she said
266 Squadron (3) vs. Jedi Starfighter Corps (4)
Ace Azzameen vs. Tesar Sebatyne TRUMPED with Lowbacca (forfeit)
Tosche Station Power Converters (4) vs. Nobody move! I've dropped me brain (3)
Asajj Ventress vs. Krasov Hara
[hl=grey]Trade-Bait[/hl] (2) vs. [hl=black]Requiem for a Draft[/hl] (5)
Myri Antilles vs. Tyria Sarkin
The Not So Avenging Avengers (4) vs. PRENNTACULAR (3)
Zekk vs. Darth Vader
The lady is correct again
266 Squadron (4) vs. Jedi Starfighter Corps (4)
Wedge Antilles, Pash Cracken, Keyan Farlander, Jake Farrell, Ace Azzameen, Anj Dahl, Nrin Vakil, Octa Ramis vs. Anakin Skywalker, Maarek Stele, Adi Gallia, Saba Sebatyne, Tesar Sebatyne, Plo Koon, Lowbacca, Mace Windu
Tosche Station Power Converters (5) vs. Nobody move! I've dropped me brain (3)
[hl=grey]Trade-Bait[/hl] (3) vs. [hl=black]Requiem for a Draft[/hl] (5)
The Not So Avenging Avengers (4) vs. PRENNTACULAR (4)
Jaina Solo, Kyp Durron, Inyri Forge, Myn Donos, Zekk, Lando Calrissian, Alinn Varth, Dash Rendar vs. Darth Vader, Turr Phennir, Mara Jade Skywalker, Anakin Solo, Imperial Ace, Shira Brie, Ben Skywalker, Shawnkyr Nuruodo
I like to think of my team in a fight like this. I have Anakin and Maarek out there doing their thing, being amazing. I then have 2 smaller wings, each extremely cohesive, Adi/Plo/Mace and Saba/Tesar & Lowbacca. I also have Force Meld (by one of the best, Saba) to bring it all together and make the team greater than the sum of it's parts.
Wedge > Anakin
Pash = Maarek
Keyan > Adi
Jake < Saba
Ace = Tesar
Anj > Plo
Nrin < Lowbacca
Octa > Mace
I'd say Wedge and Pash can handle Anakin and Maarek at the top end. The latter two have never flown together while Wedge and Pash are intimately familiar with one another. I'd also take their experience over the latter two as well. Add Keyan to the mix (who flew with Wedge at Endor) against Adi, who doesn't have a great deal of experience and my top three can handle Mikaboshi's.
Saba would definitely beat Jake and Lowie would take Nrin, but I think Ace's exploits in the GCW can stand up to Tesar. Plo's next to useless and Anj is a Rogue Leader and Octa would take Mace because she flew longer and faced worse odds in the Vong War.As a whole, I think my top and back ends are stronger than Mikaboshi's which would give me the victory.
In terms of experience, my pilots have a lot more, just because of the nature of the Jedi being involved with different responsibilities and I having a few career pilots at the top. In terms of cohesion, I think the Wedge and Pash one is profound. Wedge has also flown with Farlander and Farrell at Endor, and the latter into Death Star II itself, and of course Wedge and Nrin are old hands.
Most of the pilots flew around the same time period and should be generally familiar with each other's exploits, particuarly my top three pilots. (with the exception of Anj, who is a member and a leader of the future Rogue Squadron so I don't think it would be too much of an issue The issue with the other team's cohesion is the big gap with the Clone Wars, GCW and NJO pilots.
So in the end 266 Squadron takes it
I can't get past this point in your argument. I keep giggling uncontrollably.
Mobile sock of s65horsey
I did it just for you
Pash = Stele? Are you ... I don't even.
No. You should lose just for that.
Just to be clear.
Stele > Phennir > Pash.
This is set in stone.
Wedge >> Anakin
Pash << Stele
Keyan >> Adi
Jake < Sabs
Ace > Tesar
Anj > Plo
Nrin < Lowie
Octopus > Mace
I think picking them apart and looking at my team as just a bunch of individuals is really not doing them justice. Within this squad there are 2 smaller squads who have oodles of experience together, and this is made even tighter with the huge advantage given by the melding that my team brings to the party. The trio of Saba, Tesar and Lowbacca is going to be hard to break, as is the trio of Adi, Mace and Plo. Anakin fights very nicely with the OR Jedi and can bolster that group.....or we can look at him breaking off and flying solo and being the unpredictable bringer of chaos that he normally is.
There really isn't much of a gap in cohesion when you account for melding, that goes a long way towards bridging the familiarity between OT and PT Jedi.
I think the experience thing is arguable as well.
Anakin was an experienced and accomplished pilot by age 10. Do I even need to get into the laundry list of stuff he has done?
Maarek we know was a trained pilot by the time the Rebellion took off, and he stayed active until 29 ABY when the Yuuzhan Vong war wrapped up....that is over 30 years of active piloting in major campaigns....and those conflicts saw much of the worst pilot vs. pilot fighting. He survived it all in a TIE fighter....which is clearly an inferior craft.
Saba, Tesar and Lowbacca are as accomplished Jedi pilots as we get. Same goes for Plo. Yes they did other stuff as well, but they are far from being strangers to a starfighter, and they have more known experience than some on the opposing squadron.
Ace Azzameen for example, his story basically starts at Hoth and ends at Endor. How long is that? 1 year.
Octa has only about 1 1/2 years of know experience during the later part of the YV war. It could be noted that the squad she was in was pretty much obliterated in short order during the Battle of Coruscant which I would note that Octa left the squadron and abandoned Kyp during the battle. Not a great quality in a teammate I would think.
Nrin has about 3 years of experience between the battle of Brentaal IV and the end of the campaign against Ysanne Isard.
Anj we can verify only 1 actual battles she took part in. The Battle of Mon Calamari. There were two other things she was present at, but we know nothing of the details. We do know that she was on Rogue Squadron for about 7 years, but absolutely nothing else about that time is known. Nothing.
What do we really have on Jake? He was active and training people in 19BBY, which was also the year he retired. He came out of retirement 17 years later to do more training, took part in the Battle of Yavin and then ran escort for the Millenium Falcon in the Battle of Endor. We have 2 actual battles that we know if, one of which he didn't really fight in. Other than that he was primarily a trainer.
So beyond Wedge, Pash and Keyan what real experience is there? Not a lot. I surely wouldn't put that kind of "career pilot" experience over accomplished Jedi pilots who have more showings and the huge instinct/luck/reaction boost that the force gives them in addition to that experience and skill. Consider then as well the boost that the entire team gets from melding, and consider how much greater they will be cohesively thanks to that.
We also can be fairly certain that Anj, Octa, Ace and Jake really didn't fly with any other people on the team. There is no direct cohesive links at all to be found there. The only real known cohesive links are Wedge, Pash, Kyan and Nrin. The rest are all completely unfamiliar with each other, and they don't have the melding advantage to help them smooth that over.
Where as on my team we know that there is clear links between Anakin, Adi, Plo and Mace as well as between Saba, Tesar and Lowbacca. It can also be argued that Maarek is at least somewhat familiar with Anakin, no way do I believe that Vader is 100% different as a pilot than Anakin was, and for as great as a pilot as Maarek is he will quickly pick up on much of that familiarity I believe.
edit: hold up
Ok, before the above post I was leaning 266 because I thought it has better overall cohesion: the other squad has some wingpairs, and a great top two, but Wedge + Pash has a bit of an edge in terms of actually working together and the team is stuffed with experienced leaders who fought in the same movement, which I tend to respect more than scattered but unaffiliated talent.
However, Mikaboshi's made a decent argument about mind-melding and wingpairs. I tend to look askance at Jedi nonsense, but even that aside: there are two sets of cohesive pilots there. I'm unconvinced by the dismissal of Ace and the elevation of Stele in the same breath though: I primarily count Stele's known achievements, rather than the fact that he's popped in with a WotC adventure seed and a FotJ namedrop: that doesn't tell us much about what he's been up to, or what caliber, and we have no indication that Ace's career ended. We will judge both on what they've seen.
I was leaning 266 earlier, but I'm now 50-50. PG, please rebut. Mikaboshi, you can try some more at proving your point if you like.
Drat, meant to edit rather than reply.
I'll respond tomorrow
I tend to view the individual parings as such
Wedge >= Anakin (I would go on the record of saying that it isn't by a huge margin though)
Pash < Stele (I really don't think that Pash is better than Stele)
Keyan > Adi
Jake << Sabs
Ace > Tesar
Anj < Plo
Nrin < Lowie
Octopus > Mace
Now that is only the individual pairings. I do believe I have far better wing pairings, and do believe that a group of loosely collected individuals (1/2 of which have no experience with a single person on the team) will have a hard time breaking those tight cohesive groups. As a unit, the Jedi team will be working far better together to compliment each other due to the melding and actual experience in working together in those smaller groups.
If ever there was a team that can be said to be far better than the sum of it's parts, it is this Jedi team thanks in part to 2 very close cohesive wing groups and the melding capabilities which will bridge the gaps.
I know this is Jedi nonsense, but I am going to bring up intangibles.
Shatterpoints. This is not just something that can be directly applied to objects, it is applied to situations just as often.
"In relation to events, a single "strike," or action, could cause events to transpire completely differently than they might otherwise have."
"Shatterpoints could form links between beings, creatures, planets, or other vessels, and if destroyed or utilized, these shatterpoints could hold the key to averting disaster, sealing fate, winning battles and fulfilling the very will of the Force itself."
That is a kind of instinctual advantage that 266 just does not have, nor can really compensate for. I don't put a lot of weight into it, but in a close fight it is something to consider, it could mean the difference between victory and defeat. Recognizing a critical opportunity at the right moment is extremely useful. Additionally knowing how to capitalize on that opportunity and where best to land the strike to make things fall apart for your opponent is priceless.
Plo Koon has utilized a few tricks from the cockpit of a starfighter as well. He has created illusions in the mind of opponents of other starfighters to distract opponents, and has manipulated the environment to act as a distraction to opposing pilots as well. At the Battle of Gwori Koon along with Tiin undertook a previously unperformed maneuver: a hyperspace jump in-between Separatist fleets and the planet and then took part in crippling attack runs that took out the separatist facilities. In fact both Koon and Tiin are known for navigating hyperspace without nav computers, it takes some brass to pull that off.
Speaking of Koon, lets look at some of his experience.
He led the counterattack against the Malevolence and it was his plans that directly led to its desctruction, he was also critical in the destruction of the Devastation, led the air defense of Falucia against the Seperatists, he fought in the Battle of Boz Pity, led the counter attack during the surprise attack on Galactic City (while at the same time Kenobi and Anakin rescued Palpatine from Dooku), and led the campaign on Cato Neimoidia.
Koon has a lot more experience than he is usually given credit for. That is more known experience in heated battles than Jake, Anj and Octa by a long shot.
I do believe my backfield is better, the top end is close enough to keep it together until the odds get overwhelming, the wing pairings are far better, the cohesion of my team is better than 266 especially when you consider that half of 266 (Jake, Ace, Anj and Octa) have no experience what so ever with any other person in the squad, the melding is a huge boost to my team as are the other Jedi tricks (illusion, and potentially shatterpoint) used in the cockpit or in battle are things that can't be countered.
The Jedi experience is not lacking, nor is the skill, nor is the cohesion.
Nor do we have any indication that it continued. All we know at this point is that he had one good year, and then disappeared off the face of the galaxy. I don't really put much stock into Stele's name drop in FotJ either, I really count his career from the Rebellion to the end of the Vong war....which was still 30 years.