Saga The 1st Order allows woman & minorities in its ranks -- does that make it less evil than the Empire?

In old canon and new canon, one of the qualities that makes the Empire evil is that it treats non-human species as lesser beings. That all Imperials are white males also implies that the Empire does not treat women and minorities as equals as well.

On the other hand, the First Order has female and minority officers. All other things being equal, would their acceptance of minorities and women make the First Order a slightly less evil dictatorial regime than the Empire was?

 

We've since had it established that there were female officers and non-white officers as well that were a part of the Empire. Rae Sloane, for instance, is both a woman and black, and she served as captain of a Star Destroyer. We just didn't see such officers in the OT films because of the time during which they were made. However, due to both organizations' proclivity to blow up entire planets, I'm going to go with "exactly as evil."

 

I think I'm going to need to see comparative demographic salary statistics for the First Order to make a call like this one.

 

Not really. In the SW galaxy I think true racism and prejudice is aimed more towards different species’ rather than races within a species. A human is a human. Doesn’t matter if they’re white, black, Asian or whatever and their sex doesn’t come into it, I don’t think. At least that’s how I’ve always viewed it.

 

Probably more evil......

 

Perhaps more of a reflection of a couple of things,one the leader is a non-human and also with the Empire diminished the actual options for intake being so selective was less realistic for the 1st Order to do as the Empire had done?

Oh and third option - Snoke knows that the Empire's policy was a flaw in it and lead to it's fall?

 

They kidnap and brainwash children without consent to fight and die for them.

At least the Empire never did that, although the morality of the Clones is a complex one.

 

Going by Rebels tie-ins - the Empire's implied to do that as well with Force sensitive children, to produce Inquisitors.

 

I've read others say the First Order is eviller than the Empire, like all the worst things about the Empire being carried on by extremists or something.

This is an interesting point though, the OT and Dooku's rantings in the novelisations do seem to imply a pretty selective Empire originally, I hadn't really seen the perhaps more diverse approach in the new film as anything other than a sign of the times the movies were made, but I don't know.

Trivially, there is a similarity in the Republic using clones trained from birth, the Jedi indoctrinating infants, and stormtroopers like Finn being trained from birth. What that says about the First Order I'm not sure.

 

The empire had an entire galaxy to recruit from and heck they could even probably whip up a few more clones if they had to. The First Order is pretty much stuck in one corner of the galaxy shaking it's metaphorical fist at the rest, until they have their totally-not-a-Death-Star up and running anyway. They can't afford to be all that picky beyond 'young, impressionable, can carry blaster.' It's more pragmatism than morality.

 

How can you be sure?

 

One would have had to peek under a whole lot of helmets to find out, for sure!

 

Darth Nerdling wrote

That all Imperials are white males also implies that the Empire does not treat women and minorities as equals as well.

That's pretty much the idea George Lucas seemed to convey to us, IMHO. I also think he was uncertain how audiences back in the late 1970's / early 1980's would react to female combatants, with the exception that proves the rule being Princess Leia, nevertheless given chores comparable to the WAAF by the time of ESB: http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/researc...f-the-battle-of-britain/women-of-britain.aspx

And what happened to the female fighter pilots from ROJ?

• Vivienne Chandler playing X-Wing pilot "Dorovio Bold" didn't make it into the film
• [Unknown elderly actress] playing "Mom A-Wing" didn't make it into the film
• Poppy Hands (A-Wing pilot Red Three) made it into the film for two seconds, but was dubbed by a male actor in the final edit of the film.

So it would seem that Lucas was expecting audiences to be okay with females (on both sides) providing services, but not as combatants aboard fighters and bigger ships.

 

There is no indication of racial division in the films. (an earth concept)

Regarding minorities, I don't believe a person's color defines them whether "black" or "white" etc.
I care more about a person's heart. Inner character is what matters to me including actions a person takes,
Plus what is considered minorities is different depending on where you live.
Minority is a relative term.

The Star Wars Galaxy isn't America or Earth.

There are no Caucasian, African-Americans, Asian's, Latino's , or any other "earth racial group" in SW.
There are no Earthlings in SW at all.

To me, there are humans good or bad.

Some individual's in SW may exhibit prejudices against different aliens species, but nothing in the films shows this as Imperial policy.

 

From what I remember, the Empire consciously treated non-human species as lesser beings. It's unclear to me that the situation was the same with women and minorities. It seems possible to me that this might not be a case of degree of evil as opposed to degree of enlightenment (admittedly a slightly awkward term to use with respect to the Empire and the First Order, but which should get my point across) - that, just as was the case in real life during the periods that the OT and the ST were made, certain practices were simply regarded as a norm for the time, and did not have much to do with a conscious agenda. Admittedly, there's the slight problem of there being more women and minorities seen in the PT, but history has shown us that it is entirely possible that a population becomes more close-minded and ceases certain more liberal practices of the past for a period of time. In such a situation, I'm not sure "evil" is the right word to describe the situation - I certainly wouldn't describe people of the past as being more "evil" simply because they had certain practices that people do not practice nowadays. I'm not saying that this is definitely what happened during the period of the Empire - perhaps there was a conscious agenda after all - just mentioning that this also seems a valid possibility.

 

Empire or 1st Order isn't evil, they just believe in the system of monarchy, that's all. That doesn't make them evil.

As for their leader, yes, they are practioners of Dark Side of the Force. Which would make them evil in the eyes of Jedi and Light Siders.

 

Originally, it was all white males in the Empire. It was the same with the Rebellion, but flash forward to Return of the Jedi, and we see women and aliens joining the ranks equally. Meanwhile the Empire is still just males. It was pretty deliberate to make the distinction. Women represent bearers of life; the Empire, simply put, represents death. I'm positive they've probably made some EU characters that create something we didn't see in the movies, but the symbolism shown strictly in the film speaks for itself.

Minorities don't really seem to be a thing in this universe. You belong to your species, and that's about it. I guess the Empire didn't have any minorities, but the sample size of unmasked commanders we see isn't really big enough to make a connection. Many black extras played Stormtroopers. I imagine it wouldn't be very different in-universe.

So yeah, the First Order is either more open than the Empire and/or times were trying enough that beggars couldn't be choosers.

 

The Legends/EU Empire gives the impression that it was more sexist than the NEU/canon Empire. The only two high ranking female Imperials of note seemed to have gotten their position, not through recognizable skills, but by trickery or who they knew (Isard and Daala); the NEU/canon Empire isn't as blatantly sexist as its Legends counterpart given that we had a female Moff (novel, Lords of the Sith), and a female Star Destroyer captain/later admiral (Rae Sloane, A New Dawn and Aftermath, plus an issue or two of the Kanan comic).

Now, the question: is the First Order as xenophobic/anti-alien as both iterations of the Empire? On the one hand, we have Supreme Leader Snoke (who isn't fully human, at least), but only Hux and Kylo Ren have interacted with him on-screen; on the other hand, we haven't seen any non-human First Order officers/stormtroopers, although it's possible that Captain Phasma herself may be non-human, but we don't know since she never took off her helmet.

 

Considering there is gender subtext throughout both the films and the EU(Legends), I'm gonna have to say that they either missed the boat on this one and tried to make the First Order 'progressive' to please fans today, without understanding that that was the improper place to apply that into the story, or it is part of a later development that will be revealed. A third option is that the filmmakers are continuing the subtext and, in line with the arc of the OT, the feminine presence is stronger by the time of the ST because everything is more in balance. If that is the case, I'd like to see how that plays out. Regardless, it certainly makes the First Order less prejudiced than the Empire, and knowing the Empire's cruelty and prejudice, I think to any objective observer it is clear that both in their day-to-day worldview, larger activities, and overall subjugation efforts, the First Order is not as evil as the Empire. The First Order is more akin to an organized terrorist organization, a kind of neo-facism. But the Empire was an empire -- it subjugated the entire galaxy for over 20 years and was what the First Order only wishes it was. The Empire defined fascism and darkness and I don't see that changing even with the horrors the First Order may commit -- it's simply not on the scope of the Empire. And that seems to be true on the gender and racial level too.

 

Yes slightly less evil I voted. I mean every helmet-less Imperial was 100% White male.

However it should be pointed out not every white male had a British accent. There were a few North American actors playing Imperials.


HOWEVER

Having watched TFA 7 times I noticed that all FO officers had 100% British accents. No minority officers ether.

 

Suddenly, I'm reminded of "Blazing Saddles". Hedley Lamarr starts looking for the worst outlaws in the West to join up with him and attack Rock Ridge. But he makes sure his sign at the registration desk includes, "Equal Opportunity Employer".

 

As I said before the FO officers M and F have 100% British accents. While the FO may no longer be racist & sexist like the old GE, the FO may be "Planet-ist".

 

In the new cannon, especially in comic-books, we see that the Empire already allowed minorities and women to be included in their military staff (except aliens). So it doesn't make the First Order less evil than the Galactic Empire.

But from the beginning of TFA, it is showed that First Order is much more ruthless and radical than the old Empire and won't stop at nothing to regain control of the galaxy. This is particularly illustrated when Kylo Ren orders the extermination of poorly armed villagers (well the Empire did kill civilians on Alderann with the first Death Star but it was mainly used against the Rebellion) and when General Hux delivers his speech, full of hatred against the New Republic, before firing with the newly built Starkiller base.