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Games The 25th Jedi Draft - The Silver Anniversary Edition!! (Champion: Point Given!)

Discussion in 'Star Wars Community' started by Darth_Furio , Jul 1, 2017.

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  1. DarthIntegral

    DarthIntegral VIP star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2005
    That's a fun draw. I'll get arguments up. I think I'll likely split the two matches due to incredibly similar arguments, but I'm going to give it my best.
     
  2. KenKenobi

    KenKenobi Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2002
    Is the location a hockey rink is that what the Stanley Cup image was for
     
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  3. DarthIntegral

    DarthIntegral VIP star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 13, 2005
  4. Wang Chi

    Wang Chi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Damn. Those trumps seem like big time wastes. Here's hoping Anakin hits one of those forfeits (or Kenobi, because fun).

    Love that Saba vs. Ulic fight. I can get some arguing done for that, methinks.
     
  5. KenKenobi

    KenKenobi Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2002
    Args anyone? Will judge Tues night at the latest

    Also @Darth_Furio is there really no location?
     
  6. DarthIntegral

    DarthIntegral VIP star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2005
    I was really hoping to get high quality arguments up, but it's just not going to happen.

    MJS (Prep) vs. trump seems fairly straightforward. Neither of them are close to her level before she preps, and it's not like she's a stranger to coming out of battles where she's outnumbered. Throw in the prep, and I don't think there's any doubt here.

    My Trump vs. Kyp is kinda similar. Except. Kyp < Mara, and Kyp (prep) <<< Mara Prep. Ganner's absolute peak is not that far behind what we've seen from Kyp. There's no natural cohesion between my two, if there were I think they'd have a great chance at taking it. As-is, though, I've got to say they've got a chance, but I certainly wouldn't object to the judges putting Kyp (Prep) over them.

    sorry I can't do more.
     
  7. Darth_Furio

    Darth_Furio Jedi Grand Master star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2008
    Sorry guys, forgot the location, apologies @KenKenobi

    Let's go with the Shadowlands on Kashyyyk. I'll give this around another day day and a half.
     
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  8. Lenea_Sandstrider

    Lenea_Sandstrider Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I can try to get something up. Though I don’t know how much args would help me right now.
     
  9. cubman987

    cubman987 Your Friendly Neighborhood CT/PT/Saga Moderator star 6 Staff Member Moderator

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2014
    Prob know the answer already but which ones do judges want to see arguments for here?
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  10. KenKenobi

    KenKenobi Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2002
    You've posted about Gnost & prep before-- do you think it's enough for him to overcome these odds? (personally more set on the other two)

    Middle one for me-- Bane obvs cleans up and I'd favor the Talon/Nihl trump even without Wyyrlok to throw illusions around in the Shadowlands
     
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  11. Skywalker_T-65

    Skywalker_T-65 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Hmm. On the face of it, I doubt anything I could say would balance against these odds. We've already had a similar match where Gnost (Prep) would win against either component trump, but people decided he couldn't win against more than that.

    On the other hand, the more I think about the location the more I start thinking it isn't so clean cut here. Not one part of this trump is horribly familiar with the Shadowlands (though Aayla has Felucia). Gnost isn't either, clearly, but he has the advantage of prep. He can plan out routes. He can plan out traps. He can plan out ways to split this fight into the component trumps.

    And if that happens, he has a much better chance. Oppo sucks in a direct fight against lightsaber users, and Ki-Adi isn't enough to balance that.

    Hmmm. Maybe this needs another character theater.....
     
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  12. DarkEagle

    DarkEagle SWC Muggles Draft Commissioner star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2009
    [face_plain] Reminder: he's up against Jerec

    I'm really trying to get one up for kas'im/kaan v scrubs; might be Wednesday though- this week is crazy for me
     
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  13. Yodaminch

    Yodaminch Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2002
    Round 1

    Numbers 5, 8, 9

    Location: Shadowlands

    @DarthIntegral vs. @The Vanguard

    5. Mara Jade Skywalker (PREP) vs. 5. Azlyn Rae TRUMPED Marasiah Fel

    These two Imperial Knights are not as well trained as some of their counterparts. While they have some skill, it's certainly not enough to stop a prepared Mara Jade.

    8. Ganner Rhysode TRUMPED W/ Kol Skywalker vs. 8. Kyp Durron (PREP)

    What does Kyp gain from prep time? I mean, he'll do pretty well over Ganner. Ganner's best advanage is his strong TK, but Kyp's not too bad at that. But as a duelist, Ganner was decent. Kol's basically just good at fighting lots of sith before dying. But most of those sith were canon fodder and not real challenges. Ultimately, Kyp presents a unique challenge. As one of Luke's original 12, Kyp certainly learned a lot. And unlike the other two, he had his darkside flirtation as well. As a Master, Kyp's done pretty well. That said, Kyp's best skills are as a pilot and not necessarily holding off two opponents. However, I think the prep gives Kyp what he needs to take out Ganner and then it's him and Kol and I think he can edge that one out.

    9. Kol Skywalker TRUMPED W/ Ganner Rhysode (FORFEIT) vs. An'ya Kuro TRUMPED Quinlan Vos

    @DarkEagle vs. @cubman987

    5. Jerec/Sariss vs. 5. Darth Bane
    Yeah, for me, this one is not in doubt. Even without prep, I think Bane takes this. And I think location helps him more than these two.

    8. Lord Kaan/Lord Kasim vs. 8. Darth Azard/Darth Havok TRUMPED Darth Stryfe

    Gonna wait on this one. Kaan is crazy, but Azard and Stryfe are mostly just brutes. Havok is the brains. And Kasim is the best duelist of the bunch.

    9. Viun Gaalan trumped w/ Sarasu Taalon vs. 9. Darth Talon/Darth Nihl TRUMPED Darth Wyyrlok (III)

    This one isn't in doubt for me. Nihl and Talon are the best duelists aside from Krayt himself in his sith empire. Wyyrlok seals it with his sith sorcery.

    @Wang Chi vs. @Skywalker_T-65

    5. Ki-Adi Mundi/Oppo Rancisis trumped with Kit Fisto/Aayla Secura vs. 5. Gnost Dural (PREP)

    I don't care how good Gnost is with prep, 4 jedi generals- 3 of whom served on the council, is too much. The connections between the four are too strong. Could Gnost take one pair? Possibly. Both? No way.

    8. Saba Sebatyne vs. 8. Ulic Qel-Droma

    This was the other match I wanted arguments on. Lean Saba.

    9. Arca Jeth TRUMPED Qui-Gon Jinn vs. Nat Skywalker

    Nat by himself is at a real disadvantage. He would trump better. Arca with Qui-Gon is an odd trump, but together, it's enough to take out Nat.
     
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  14. cubman987

    cubman987 Your Friendly Neighborhood CT/PT/Saga Moderator star 6 Staff Member Moderator

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2014
    Okay so some things my team has going for it:
    Numbers: it's 3 on 2
    Cohesion: 3 powerful One Sith who have fought together under Krayt
    Variety: These 3 offer a wide variety of powers; Force lightning, illusion, Force bubbles, and all were skilled at fighting with a lightsaber.
    Experience: all 3 of these guys are experienced fighters and are experienced at fighting multiple opponents at once.

    So looking at this matchup it's probably close mostly because Kasim was an incredible lightsaber duelist and Kaan was good at manipulating people and powering his allies. But Kaan wasn't much of a fighter himself and really wasn't all of that strong outside of his manipulations which the strong willed could resist; and of course he goes crazy. I don't see him having much impact on the 3 One Sith in this battle, all three are pretty determined and dedicated to their causes. What I think it comes down to is whether or not Kasim can take out all 3 with Kaan's help. I say no. His double lightsaber won't give him an advantage because the One Sith won't be surprised about seeing one and because Azard uses one himself. They are also so adept at fighting multiple, strong opponents. Azard fought Cade and Wolf at the same time, Stryfe was shown fighting multiple Imperial Knights, Jedi, a horde of rakghouls and then Cade. Havok was one of the few to survive the battle against the insane Sith trooper army and was shown to be great at fighting with a lightsaber on top of his illusion and Force lightening abilities. Stryfe and Azard go on the lightsaber offensive here and Havok confuses things with his lightning and Force Illusions in the shadows, stepping in with his lightsaber skills if necessary. I think with Kaan willing him on Kasim would put up a good fight, but I think ultimately the 2 brutes with the help of Havok's powers are enough to take out the duelist and then finish up crazy Kaan.
     
  15. Wang Chi

    Wang Chi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2013
    I'll have my argument up tonight. Fairly late, but definitely tonight.
     
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  16. Wang Chi

    Wang Chi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Okay, I've never done this before (not in a Jedi draft anyway) because it feels lazy, but I'm just going to link to a respect thread. I was pulling all kinds of quotes from it, but then I realized how much simpler it would be to just link the damned thing. Also, as I was reading the thread creator's comments and evaluation of the provided quotes, I realized that he (she? whatever.) was already saying much of what I was planning to say. That's not to say that I agree 100% with every single word of what thevioletsaber had to say (for example, the comment on how Luke's Council was the most powerful in the history of Jedi Councils, forgetting about the one that had Yoda, Mace, Anakin and Kenobi on it circa RotS), but for the most part, it's spot on. It's not a full, comprehensive accounting of Saba's feats, but it hits all the major notes. There's some starfighter stuff that can be glossed over, but it really shouldn't take very long to read. Not much longer than if I'd copy/pasted all the quotes and gave my own commentary, anyways.

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/prof.../saba-sebatyne-respect-threadanalysis/131563/

    So in there we have a full documentation of all her major fights. Against Dark Nest-boosted Welk, against Hamner and against the Abeloth avatar.

    Saba is very skilled, but I will go on record in saying that I think Ulic is a better duelist. Saba is very powerful, but it's not her greatest strength. Her single greatest strength is that freakish ability to take damage that would be a quick end for almost anyone else (only Jacen is in her class) and keep on fighting. And not just fighting, but fighting effectively. You can call it a crutch if you want, but it needs to be planned for and Ulic has never faced anything like this.

    In that fight with Welk, she took a damned LIGHTSABER STRIKE TO THE HEAD. Her brain was exposed. She lost half her tail (which is also an extremely effective weapon itself), two fingers, was poisoned by kiliks that were interfering in the fight AND STILL somehow made Welk retreat. Welk, being boosted by the dark nest, was not a joke. Just see the quote with him and Luke for evidence (But of course, it's Luke, and he ultimately overpowered Welk because Luke. Goes without saying.). And that kilik armor he had saved him on multiple occasions from much worse damage that would have been caused by Saba's physical strikes. Ulic has no such armor and no kiliks providing additional support via poison and stuff.

    Against Hamner, she's holding back the entire time. If she'd been out to kill him it wouldn't have even been a fight. All the drama and suspense in that fight is only made possible by her wanting to subdue him, not kill him. And yet, her ability to fight after having taken a saber through the gut is nothing short of phenomenal.

    Against Abeloth, even with both her forearms broken, she uses her shattered arms to physically dominate Abeloth and pull her in for the kill via her extraordinarily dangerous teeth. And just prior to that, her Force-enhanced double punch attack? The one that shredded Abeloth's mouth? Can Ulic take something like that and keep on fighting? No. Hell no. Say he impales her right through the torso and is feeling pretty good about his victory. Great for him... until a split-second later when he gets nailed with an attack like that. His torso would be ****ing disintegrated in a manner than would make her lightsaber impalement look like a paper cut. And then she walks away, hurting-yet-alive, and a third of Ulic's body is just pink mist. And that's just the most extreme of examples. It wouldn't take that extreme of an attack to send Ulic reeling. Even something along the lines of the tail-whip that Welk was able to tank thanks to his armor and major power boost would put Ulic in a bad spot fairly quickly.

    Saba battles tend to be extremely messy, but her single greatest asset truly is that ungodly ability to tank damage that would kill pretty much anyone else, as well as the natural advantages given to her by way of her species. Let's just take Force-enhancment completely out of the equation for a second. The speed, strength, durability and agility are completely her's in comparison to a human.

    Also, the Shadowlands location favors Saba immensely. She absolutely loves a location like this. It's right up her alley.

    All this said: I love Ulic. He's so damn good, and I would not be upset at all if he wins.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
  17. KenKenobi

    KenKenobi Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2002
    @DarkEagle I'll wait for you tonight and then jump in!
     
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  18. DarkEagle

    DarkEagle SWC Muggles Draft Commissioner star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2009
    Lord Kaan/Lord Kas'im vs 3 One Sith Chumps

    Alright, so Kas'im is a beast. He's easily the single best fighter out of everyone here (though some might be forgetting just how good he really is). Kaan is...less so...But. I think he deserves more respect and consideration than he gets here sometimes. As for this group of One Sith? Hah- none of them are strong standouts in their limited showings. I'll start with them:
    Really? "Fought together"? I guess in the vaguest most-general sense of "together" you'd be right. None of these guys are ever shown to have even met any of the other ones. Or to even be aware they exist. Like I guess they'll work together since they are, after all, all One Sith. So that kinda counts for something. Kaan and Kas'im, on the other hand, have the better cohesion. A leader and his subordinate that have worked well together during years of war and turmoil.
    Again, I question your sources- Stryfe has fought multiple opponents (though when he did so none were particularly good, certainly not at Kas'im's level); Havok hasn't- all he's got is killing the old Empress, capturing a weakened Draco, and torturing some prisoners; Azard has a single strike against Cade while fighting Wolf, hardly taking them both on at the same time (seriously, go look at the issue in question, a single frame of striking at both Jedi).

    So yeah, I'm unimpressed with their abilities to work together to take on multiple foes, one of which is far better than them.

    Kaan is capable of much more than just manipulating people- he crushed rival Sith and forced them all to acknowledge him as their leader. That takes much more than just people skills.
    I think people focus a little too much on his instability there at the end than his previously impressive leadership. He was stuck on Ruusan for months, slogging it out with the Jedi- even Hoth was losing it towards the end there (and no one knocks him for it...). He's more than just chump change in this fight- he brings a solid level of Force power to this fight (btw, Stryfe was shown to be easily taken down by Force powers (vs Wyyrlok's daughter)).

    Kas'im
    Yeahhhh, that's what these One Sith are up against. Ok, so Azard's double saber will help him not be surprised by Kas'im's? Kas'im is easily capable of adjusting his fighting technique to be able to fight against multiple opponents (just pause, and toggle your saber form in the bottom left option bar :p). Plus, he's a master of fighting with two split sabers, which helps against multiple opponents.
    Kas'im has honed his body completely for saber combat (plus he's not weak against Force attacks- he withstood Bane's blast that shattered the temple on Rakata Prime). These One Sith just aren't on the same level as him- they're not going to outlast him and Kas'im will just knock them down one by one (with Kaan helping).

    Duel v Bane
    Yeah, that's not v peak Bane, but are any of these One Sith on the level as Bane was here? I wouldn't say so- none of them have shown anything close to what Bane and Kas'im did here.

    I think in order for the One Sith to win here, all 3 of them need to last a long while for them to have a chance. And I just don't see that happening- to stay alive they'd all need to have good fighting skills and no weaknesses. Azard died because he couldn't pay attention in the middle of a fight, Havok has little/none shown fighting experience, and Stryfe was almost crushed by Saarai. I easily see one of them slipping up or getting focused early and then the 2v2 looks really bad for the One Sith. Kaan and Kas'im have enough to take down these guys.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
  19. Darth_Furio

    Darth_Furio Jedi Grand Master star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2008
  20. Darth_Furio

    Darth_Furio Jedi Grand Master star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2008
    Double post. Apologies.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
  21. Skywalker_T-65

    Skywalker_T-65 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Sorry I wasn't able to get anything up. I'm trying to research for a novel I'm writing so...less time.

    (not that I expect it would have mattered anyway)

    I think the best I can say about Ulic and Saba is that Ulic is a bit of a tank himself. Not to the same, frankly ridiculous level (he's a squishy human after all) but this is the man who fought Kun to a standstill with a hole in his chest and poisoned. He can take a hit.

    He's probably the better skilled duelist.

    It really comes down to how much one values the location (Ulic is also no stranger to fighting in less than advantageous places) and tankiness.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  22. KenKenobi

    KenKenobi Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2002
    PLAYOFF TIME...

    Inty vs. Vandy

    Mara (prep) over Azlyn/Fel— I’ve really started to like this trump but prepped Mara means she can start to split them up (and it’s a locale that predisposes her to do it too), where they have no chance
    Kyp (prep) over The Ganner/Kol— This is one where, if it was actually written and we saw more of Kol fleshed out, the trump would prob take it. As is, the prep is really helping my decision— I think The Ganner at his peak is above letting Kyp poke at his insecurities, but the lack of cohesion or prep between him/Kol does mean there’s a bit of adjustment that leaves Kyp an opening. Given his power, that’s a lot to overcome.
    Dark Woman/Mighty Quin via forfeit

    DE vs. cubby

    Bane over Jerec/Sariss— Even though it’s Jerec
    Kaan/Kas’im over One Sith Trump— I feel like I’ve jobbed cubby hard this draft, he’s made some great args and I’ve given razor-thin wins to other squads. In this case, DE brings up two key things— Kas’im is the best fighter in the matchup and the cohesion between Azard/Havok/Stryfe isn’t a crazy advantage. This almost becomes a BM-amped Kas’im in a 3-on-1, but honestly like his odds given how he laps them in dueling without it. I see him knocking off Havok early, then going at the other two Maul-style…but even if they spring a surprise on him (with the Force powers cubby listed), Kaan is there to launch some support. It’d be fun to watch but yeah. Also you killed Talisa idk why I feel about this.
    Better One Sith Trump over Repeating Vowels Trump

    Wang vs. Sky

    Prequel Trump over Gnost (prep)— Prep in this place does give him a fighting chance based on your args Sky (or should I say TLI's!), the main prob I see is Oppo’s BM is gonna keep them together and allow them to combat traps, etc.
    Ulic over Saba— Welk/Hamner are cool, but she’s never dueled anyone on the level of an amulet-ed Kun. And Ulic’s feats are just way more insane: blowing a mounted Mandalore into space-bits (without a lightsaber!), dueling a blood-raged Sylvar (without the Force!). While the locale is def great for her to climb/sneak around, the fact is she’s gonna have to actually leap down and fight him at some point, and he whooped a Basilisk war droid flying in from low orbit. He's just in a different class at his peak.
    Arca/Qui-Gon over Nat-- Battle of the Grizzled Old Peeps
     
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  23. Evil Incarnate

    Evil Incarnate Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2003
    @DarthIntegral vs. @The Vanguard

    5. Mara Jade Skywalker (PREP) vs. 5. Azlyn Rae TRUMPED Marasiah Fel
    8. Ganner Rhysode TRUMPED W/ Kol Skywalker vs. 8. Kyp Durron (PREP) - I will echo the others and mourn the loss of legends. There could have been a whole prequel comic series about Kol, but we'll never see it now.
    9. Kol Skywalker TRUMPED W/ Ganner Rhysode (FORFEIT) vs. An'ya Kuro TRUMPED Quinlan Vos

    @DarkEagle vs. @cubman987


    5. Jerec/Sariss vs. 5. Darth Bane
    8. Lord Kaan/Lord Kasim vs. 8. Darth Azard/Darth Havok TRUMPED Darth Stryfe - I'll admit that I probably give more credit to Kaan than everyone else does, but I hate the "He's bat**** crazy" argument since we're supposed to be judging these characters in peak condition, and that would mean not crazy in his case.
    9. Viun Gaalan trumped w/ Sarasu Taalon vs. 9. Darth Talon/Darth Nihl TRUMPED Darth Wyyrlok (III)

    @Wang Chi vs. @Skywalker_T-65

    5. Ki-Adi Mundi/Oppo Rancisis trumped with Kit Fisto/Aayla Secura vs. 5. Gnost Dural (PREP) - I'd totally give this to Gnost if not for the fact that the four bodies have battle meditation on their side.
    8. Saba Sebatyne vs. 8. Ulic Qel-Droma - First off, I absolutely loved the tank argument for Saba and would probably swing the round in her favor if not for Ulic's own skill and experience being one of the few of his tier suited to actually taking on an opponent like her. So while you may not have won this round for her, I do believe you have tipped a lot of future matches in her favor. At least in my opinion.
    9. Arca Jeth TRUMPED Qui-Gon Jinn vs. Nat Skywalker

    Evil.
     
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  24. cubman987

    cubman987 Your Friendly Neighborhood CT/PT/Saga Moderator star 6 Staff Member Moderator

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2014
    Funny, I feel that way too :p
     
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  25. DarthIntegral

    DarthIntegral VIP star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2005
    you know who else got jobbed hard. Indians fans during a rain delay.
     
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