Games The 25th Jedi Draft - The Silver Anniversary Edition!! (Champion: Point Given!)

I'll take one win.

 

Round 1

Location: Shadowlands, Kashyyyk

Numbers 5, 8, 9

Final Results

@DarthIntegral (1) vs. @The Vanguard (2)

5. Mara Jade Skywalker (PREP) vs. 5. Azlyn Rae TRUMPED Marasiah Fel
8. Ganner Rhysode TRUMPED W/ Kol Skywalker vs. 8. Kyp Durron (PREP)
9. Kol Skywalker TRUMPED W/ Ganner Rhysode (FORFEIT) vs. An'ya Kuro TRUMPED Quinlan Vos

@DarkEagle (1) vs. @cubman987 (2)

5. Jerec/Sariss vs. 5. Darth Bane
8. Lord Kaan/Lord Kasim vs. 8. Darth Azard/Darth Havok TRUMPED Darth Stryfe
9. Viun Gaalan trumped w/ Sarasu Taalon vs. 9. Darth Talon/Darth Nihl TRUMPED Darth Wyyrlok (III)

@Wang Chi (2) vs. @Skywalker_T-65 (1)

5. Ki-Adi Mundi/Oppo Rancisis trumped with Kit Fisto/Aayla Secura vs. 5. Gnost Dural (PREP)
8. Saba Sebatyne vs. 8. Ulic Qel-Droma
9. Arca Jeth TRUMPED Qui-Gon Jinn vs. Nat Skywalker

___________________________________________________________________

Numbers 1, 4, 7

DarthIntegral (1) vs. The Vanguard (2)

1. Shigar Koshi vs. 1. Vodo Siosk Bass
4. Nomi Sunrider/Thon TRUMPED W/ Tott Donetta/Cay Qel-Droma vs. 4. Tsui Choi/Bultar Swan
7. Kam Solusar vs. 7. Marasiah Fel TRUMPED Azlyn Rae (FORFEIT)

DarkEagle (1) vs. cubman987 (2)

1. Darth Zannah vs. 1. Darth Wyyrlok (III) TRUMPED Darth Talon/Darth Nihl (FORFEIT)
4. Darth Sidious vs. 4. Darth Vitiate
7. Darth Krayt vs. 7. Darth Sion TRUMPED Darth Nihilus

Wang Chi (2) vs. Skywalker_T-65 (1)

1. Leia Organa Solo (PREP) vs. 1. Wolf Sazen/Shado Vao
4. Ahsoka Tano vs. 4. Cade Skywalker
7. Tresina Lobi vs. 7. Celeste Morne TRUMPED with Zayne Carrick

 

Ouch, that's brutal

Spicy match-up, looking forward to the args

 

....oh god.

 

I haven't been able to give her her due and proper yet, but I definitely will here. Next couple of days aren't so good for me, but I won't hold us up too long. Pinky swear.

 

Vodo, feast of Thon, and not the forfeit. Seems pretty cut and dry in my matches. Yes?

 

Feast of Thon lmfao

That's where I'm at on those yep

Oh dayummm

 

I thought you'd appreciate that name for that trump

 

Sorry to bump this without the actual argument, but it is coming. I've compiled a bunch of clips, but I still need to find a few more (and I'm going to rewatch a couple episodes in full). Tomorrow is 100% no good for me, but Weds is looking great. Nothing but a day of laziness, so I should have plenty of time to crank out the arg.

 

Anyone in the meantime? Anyone? Bueller?

(Actually pretty set on most of these but never wanna dissuade arguing!)

 

We'll wait for @Wang Chi .

 

I could try arguing. Issue is, I'm not as familiar with Ashoka and (even beyond that) her...tendency to overperform makes it harder to argue against.

(I'm trying to be polite here :V )

 

Ha! How anyone can still have a problem with Ahsoka's "advanced abilities" now that Rey has come along and absolutely squashed her to become the new Grand Champion of that category is beyond me. And even that's fine. I got over it with Ahsoka and I just straight up don't care when it comes to Rey. The fact is that SW has always had more than its fair share of ridiculous prodigies. It's just the way it is. They've always been there, and not all of them are Skywalkers.

With the benefit of hindsight, I'm not even sure Ahsoka would crack my top 10 in a list of Star Wars Mary Sues. It's time to get over it, people.

I can't wait for the next trilogy centered around Broom Kid. He's going to blow all of them out of the water!

Just got up not too long ago. Arg'll be up sometime later today. Kinda sucks, though. I think maybe Disney cracked down on it, but there was a couple of Youtube channels that had put a ton of full comics up in video format, and they all seem to be gone now. I can still make do without it, but damn. There were a couple of Legacy issues I needed to be able to post in full. I'll try to do what I can without them. C'est la vie.

 

To be fair, I was mostly joking there. Hence the :V



(And for whatever reason, I can only access the board on mobile today. Weird)

 

EDIT: 5 pieces of media limit?! Okay, I'll just do an extra post with the missing videos after this.

Alrighty. I'm going to go easier on the YT clips than I originally planned. A lot of them were just kinda generic battle clips showcasing her general skill and agility and such, which is fine, but a lot of them ended up being a little redundant.

I will say that one advantage that Cade has in this fight (aside from a power edge) is simply that most of Ahsoka's known feats come from when she was a youngin' and there's only a couple major fights from her at her adult peak. And it's pretty much the opposite with Cade.

So first clip is actually a full episode, but there's just a couple specific clips in it that I want to focus on.



6:30-7:25 - In the grand scheme, just a minor thing, but still cool, IMO. She's still about as green as can be at this point, so being able to land with casual ease after that freefall (no way they weren't at terminal velocity) is pretty impressive. Again, little thing, but what I really want to highlight in the episode is...

12:45-13:55 - Her first fight with Grievous. Important to show because of the next clip. She talks a big game, but is clearly badly outclassed at this point. GG is hardly taking the fight seriously (swats her away with one saber first, then goes to just two) and she has to book it fairly quickly.

Now compare that to this:



Yes, she still ran (because she's not stupid), but it's night and day. GG is taking the fight waaaay more seriously (all four sabers out and he is way more aggressive with his attacks) and yet she more than holds her own against him. She's clearly much more skilled and disciplined at this point in the game, and it hasn't been all that long timeline-wise. Also, notice the total lack of quipping on her part? She actually did have some character development over the years.

Despite her having to run, she's nowhere near her peak. And aside from Krayt, GG was a deadlier opponent than any single opponent that Cade ever had to fight.



Great sequence showcasing her agility and overall skill. Also keep in mind that she gets rocked by two explosions in that sequence. Once when the starfighter she's trying to get to gets blowed up, and then again when the clone uses a rocket against her on the catwalk. Important to note for what I'm about to show next.



So she ultimately does lose to Barriss. But why? This entire sequence (entire episode, really) is just on big run-on from the previous episode in which the catwalk chase took place. Ahsoka's been on the run constantly since then. No chance to rest or recuperate since being stuck in a prison cell, then chased down by clones while having to tank not one, but two explosions, then chased by and having to fight off city guards, then Ventress ambushing her from behind, then yet another extended fight against clones alongside Ventress, then finally the duel with Barriss. She's down one lightsaber and had gotten accustomed to using two, and when was the last time she slept, or hell, had a bite to eat (she traded her ration bar to some run for a cloak to disguise herself earlier in the episode)? Despite all that, she's giving Barriss a really good fight, but gets steam in her face right before just barely avoiding yet another explosion (and there's no way that didn't cause some injuries anyways). And yet she still manages to get up and keep fighting before being knocked down again and then finally stunned and captured.

And you might be thinking, "But that's just Barriss". But okay....



Ummm, not a chump. Of course when Anakin gets serious/angry, it ends pretty quickly and decisively. Still. That's not a bad showing. Anakin is obviously on a different level, but she hung in there for a bit. Taking all the circumstances into account, as well as the skill Barriss showed against Anakin, I'd say Ahsoka looked pretty damn good in defeat there.

So I know Cade can be absolutely ruthless, but let's not sleep on Ahsoka there either.

See clip #1 of the next post

In addition to the move at the 1:00 mark being absolutely sick, those... weren't droids. In case we're thinking Ahsoka might hesitate to kill if need be, that she might be kinda... soft? That puts that notion right to bed. Ahsoka ain't sawft.

During that same clip, her fight against Pre Vizsla is also noteworthy. Yeah, Kenobi may have Kenobied him earlier on in the series (because... Kenobi), but holding her own against him as a padawan is also a nice feather in her cap. Let us also recall this:

See clip #2 of the next post

That's arguably peak-Maul and that was not an easy fight for him.

See clip #3 of the next post

So finally adult Ahsoka, and sure, maybe that inquisitor trump is hardly the stuff of legends, but that is still an utter owning. Easily on par with Cade destroying the likes of Talon and such later on in Legacy.

All of this so far has just been filler, though. What really matters (IMO, anyway) is each of their biggest fights. Ahsoka vs. Vader and Cade vs. Krayt. And... this is where I really wanted those full issues of Legacy on the tube. So, um, Cade may have ultimately struck down and killed Krayt, but it wasn't because he was better or more powerful. He essentially lost their duel, and lost it pretty hard. I'm going to post the images that I found, but I think I'm missing the first few panels or page of the fight. This is mostly it, though.





And then Krayt tries to turn Cade. AGAIN! But Cade was not impressive here. He got dominated, but then thanks to a nice combination of both plot-induced AND character-induced-stupidity, Krayt completely lets his guard down, Cade has his big hero moment and impales him. But had Krayt chosen to just kill Cade when he had the chance, rather than speechify, Cade. Would. Be. Dead.

Even if he got killed in the end, Krayt won that duel. And he won it hands down. Hell, I'm going on record saying that I think Wyyrlok showed better in his duel against Krayt than Cade did in his. At the very least, at the absolute minimum, Wyyrlok actually had Krayt hurting and in some trouble with his mind attack. Neither here nor there, I guess.

This is remarkably similar to Ahsoka's duel with Vader, actually. Just for reference, here it is again.

See clip #4 of the next post

They fight, and after a brief period where it seems like Ahsoka might have the upper hand, Vader begins to push her back and back and back, ultimately overwhelming her defenses and knocking her off the edge of the platform. And much like with Cade and Krayt, had Vader not had other things to do, he could have finished her right then and there. So I consider it a loss for Ahsoka, even if that was not the end of the fight. Even if she managed to nail him with a strike, while he was distracted, that could have killed him were it not for the armor.

But she held on for a good long time. Not shown in that clip are the roughly two minutes of their duel when we are busy watching Kanan and Ezra. It was longer than what was shown on screen.

And here's the thing: To me, Ahsoka's showing against Vader is simply better than Cade's showing against Krayt. And one of the simplest reasons why is that Vader > Krayt. Don't get me wrong, peak, resurrected Krayt is a boss, but he's still a solid tier below peak Vader. And that IS just about peak Vader. And despite her loss, I don't think she was dominated by Vader to the degree Cade was dominated by Krayt. Very different fights, stylistically-speaking, but she held her own for a good deal longer against a better opponent.

Yeah, Cade's got a lengthier resume as an adult, and yeah, he is a Skywalker. But she's fought a better, stronger one already and lived to tell about it. Check the clip. We don't know exactly what happened once that door slid shut, but she's alive, and I suspect we'll get our resolution in the final season of Rebels.

Cade has a raw power advantage, but I'd put skill in her favor. Experience is interesting, but even though she lacks a lot of appearances as an adult, I like her overall experience more. Great match, though.

 

That's a bummer about the mobile thing, dude.

 

Let's roll...

Inty vs. Vandy

Vodo over Shigar
Feast of Thon over Choi/Swan
Kam via forfeit-- If I'm not mistaken there's still some slobberknockers lurking in this next set of numbers...

DE vs. cubby

Zannah via forfeit-- Ouch
Sids-- This is just spectacular btw. It'll get buried b/c it's relatively clear-cut, but if this actually played out it'd be one of the most baller battles ever. These dudes owned large portions of the *galaxy* in addition to blowing away top talent at points, and seeing them throw down no-holds-barred would just be insane. As it is, just another episode in the Cubby Gets Shafted show
Krayt over Sion/Nihilus-- The strange run of me voting for this trump comes to an end, I think I did it more than ever before. But Krayt's just too much here

Wangy vs. Leneay

Leia (prep) over Wolf/Shado-- Nobody argued this but it was probably the closest in my mind, the prep helps immensely in this locale so that'll swing it
Cade over Ahsoka-- This wasn't super close to me but appreciate the arg so to flesh out more:

1. That's not the only showing Cade has against Krayt-- earlier in the series he takes on Talon, Nihl, and then Krayt in an impressive display. And that attempt to turn Cade to the Dark Side isn't just "Join me and we'll rule the galaxy!", he pulls some Kylo Ren **** in his brain which Cade overcomes before killing him.

2. I like Talon/Nihl more than Clone Wars Barriss (vs. MedStar Barriss, but Ahsoka never touched her) and much of Legacy is Cade just whooping on them in addition to pooka Sith.

3. You can't have Kenobi on your team and discount someone else's victory b/c it came at the last second! You play till the whistle man!

Wangster I like your Ahsoka and Rebels love, you're convincing that it's some of the better new canon, but I think Cade Skywalker is a monster holding it down for the Legends here.

Celeste/Zayne over Lobi

 

I thought about arguing the trump.

Thing is, I know I wouldn't convince Minch because he hates Wolf and there's no way I could convince him that Shado would win over prepped Leia. I don't know about Evil either. Toss in the work I'm doing to try and get a job and...yeah.

As for Cade, pretty much what Ken said. The thing about Legacy compared to Rebels (or TCW even) is that the format is so different. You see the same thing with Ulic. Comics can only show so much, limited as they are, though they often impress anyway. The final Krayt fight (leaving out the other one) is one of those cases, IMO. If that were on-screen, it would probably have gone longer and been more impressive.

That, and while Ashoka may have been a Padawan, she was still a Paddie trained by Anakin. Cade doesn't have that and he still impresses. And not just in raw POWAH either.

 

I actually don't have a problem the overall call, even if I disagree. But yeah... I am going to clarify some stuff.

1. Agreed that Cade's fights midway through the series with with Talon/Nihl/Krayt were very good fights and good early experience for Cade, but Krayt says it himself in that first page I showed of their fight. Sick Krayt =/= Resurrected Krayt. It's not even a particularly close comparison, IMO. And that's not to say that I think Sick Krayt was terrible (he wasn't) and that doesn't mean I'm dismissing Cade's fight against Sick Krayt entirely, but when I'm considering Cade vs. Krayt (the strongest opponent he ever faced), the earlier fight doesn't mean much to me aside from being a good learning experience for Cade.

And indeed, Cade overcoming the mind-****ery from Krayt in order to impale him and score the official W is impressive. Not discounting that... buuuuut... I'll explain in #3.

2. That's fair. I guess my only contention to this is that it was not Rebels Ahsoka who faced Barriss in that fight. This goes back to the very first point I made in the arg last night. It's tough when 95% of Ahsoka's known experience comes from when she was a padawan. A very advanced padawan, but a padawan nonetheless. Believe me, if we had as many fights from her in the Rebels era as we do in the Clone Wars era, I wouldn't be bothering with the CW stuff at all.

I mean... if we somehow could project Rebels Ahsoka into that fight with Barriss, I don't think it's much of contest at all. I showed the fight because I believe Ahsoka performed well once we take into account all the extenuating circumstances I laid out, but it ultimately has little overall bearing when considering peak-Ahsoka.

There's also this interesting quote that I found (and no, I don't want to put TOO much stock into the musings of the writers and show runners, because often times their ramblings don't equal what we end up with on screen, but it's still interesting and worth sharing):

"We used to have this problem in Clone Wars when we would try to put Yoda in a story and it would be like, “Yeah, if Yoda’s there, this isn’t really a problem is it?” That’s because Yoda’s going to go in there and kick everyone’s butt. We all felt that Ahsoka, the only person that could really match her in this time period, blow for blow, would be Vader or the Emperor. So that was why you didn’t see her as much and when she showed up it was purposeful. It had meaning again. You always have to serve your story, and the best way we could do that was by actually limiting Ahsoka in the story, so when she showed up, you knew it was going to be important."

- Dave Filoni, executive producer of Rebels

So there's that.

3. Weeeeellll... you kinda can. In the end, yes, the standings will show a W for Cade and an L for Krayt. But that doesn't tell the whole story.

I'm going to put my judge hat on for a bit. If I'm judging a match between Cade Skywalker and Darth Krayt in this draft, I look at that fight as my primary reference, and then I will vote for Darth Krayt 10 times out of 10, despite the fact the Krayt ended up impaled and then launched into a sun. Why? Because for the purposes of these draft fights, I'm taking plot-induced-stupidity out of the equation. And that's what allowed Cade to gain the W in that battle. The PIS of Krayt again trying and failing to turn Cade into his apprentice. He dominated the fight, he had Cade completely at his mercy, and instead of ending it, he lets his guard down completely. That's a plot element that, to me, does not come into play at all here in the draft. Here, Krayt is not attempting to turn, but rather to kill. He plays to win the game! And in that scenario, at their respective peaks, Krayt has demonstrated to me that he's clearly superior. Maybe Cade still gets that mind frag, only here, Krayt doesn't pontificate. He simply lops Cade's helpless head off long before he can fight it off.

And sure, Kenobi has been the recipient of a number of those moments as well. And they count just the same. Like him vs. Maul in TPM. Of course, in this case, it's an example of character-induced-stupidity on Maul's part, rather than PIS. And that's somewhat harder to dismiss, as it's a part of his character, rather than a plot element. But yes, Kenobi is only alive because of Maul's arrogance and stupidity. They had a helluva fight, and then Maul pushes Kenobi over the edge, and then... in a sane world, he simply pushes him again and mission accomplished. Maul wins and the entire SW universe looks completely different from that point on.

Let's also look at it another way. Let's say for the sake of argument that that fight in TPM played out exactly as it did. Maul is dumb, Kenobi slices him in half and gets the official W. Great. Only in this scenario, for some reason, that's the last we ever see of Kenobi. That's where his story ends. Nothing after that.

Ummmmm... would any of us be all that impressed with Kenobi? I know I wouldn't. He wouldn't suck, surely. He's got a few nice feats as an apprentice prior to TPM. But that's his big win? A win he able to secure only because of Maul's epic-level CIS? Is he even a 6th rounder?

And I realize that's not an exact comparison. Cade > TPM-Kenobi and Krayt > TPM-Maul, no doubt, but you get my point, right?

And don't get me wrong, I think that sucks. It's obvious that War was a rushed ending to Legacy and not really what Ostrander and Duursema would've preferred. But it also is what it is and that "win" of Cade's did not impress me all that much. He's still really good, though. Worthy of being drafted where he was. Not disputing that.

Also, to Sky_65, I agree with you as well that comics can be a limiting format. Very true. There's obviously stuff we didn't see. But the fact remains that what we did see was Krayt having not a tremendously difficult time subduing Cade. And despite it being fully animated, there's stuff we didn't see in the Ahsoka/Vader fight. For roughly two minutes right in the middle of their duel, we're watching Kanan and Ezra and we have no earthly idea what's happening in the fight. That's significant as well.

IMO, Ahsoka was more impressive in "defeat" against Vader than Cade was in "defeat" against Krayt. But your mileage may vary.

 

@Yodaminch
@Evil Incarnate

 

lol the Kenobi thing was a joke, but I think you’re missing the point I want to make clear— Cade never lost against Krayt. It wasn’t a Maul-like scenario. He didn’t lose the first time, when he beat up Darth Talon and Darth Nihl before going at him, and he killed him the second time.

Re: the first Krayt vs. “resurrected” Krayt, the panel you posted actually says it all. Krayt got the shatterpoint-esque Dark Transfer *from* Cade. Learning Cade’s power is what made Krayt the “better” version in the War series, so it’s odd to use that against Skywalker.

And the panels after that are important— without scanning them, it’s Cade getting mind-blasted by Krayt and then playing dumb before ending him. The whole idea was to make the reader think Cade was turning to the Dark Side, but Cade is actually prepping to kill the dude. At no point is he hanging on the precipice of death or at risk of dying, it’s even less ambiguous than Sidious baiting Windu. It’s in fact remarkably similar to the storytelling of Kylo looking like he was gonna kill Rey at first. He was in control, Krayt just didn’t know it.

Just not doing it for me to say that Ahsoka’s so impressive in a decisive defeat to Barriss Offee, but in the same breath try to use Cade getting hit by Force lightning in a duel he ultimately wins as evidence against his fighting prowess.

That + Cade’s distinct power advantage and wealth of experience— Yuuzhan Vong, Sith, etc.— is what puts him over for me. No offense to Snips.

 

Definitely a cut and dry match Inty, this makes it 3-3 yeah?

It's time to turn the jets on this hot tub.

In NBA Jam announcer voice: *he's heating up!*

 

Sorry, dude, but I don't agree at all with your interpretation of the fight. What you're claiming just doesn't match up with what we see, IMO. No need to scan the next pages, I have them right here.





I don't want to put words in your mouth here, but you specifically said that at no point was he at any risk of dying.

Please look at the second page once again, middle panel. Before the vision occurs. Cade is lying prone on the ground, presumably (tough to tell with no sound) screaming in agony. He has dropped his lightsaber. Krayt is hovering directly over him, shocking the crap out of him and with his own ignited lightsaber in a prime position for a killing blow.

Please, PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, but surely you can't be saying that a Krayt who was out for blood and who had no desire to convert could not have swiftly ended the duel right then and there. That was not part of Cade's master plan, and there's not a thing you could possibly say that can convince me otherwise.

And even prior to that, I cannot see a single point at which anyone could reasonably state that Cade was in control of the fight. The only point at which Cade was in control is at the very end. When Krayt has dropped his guard and is so sure of his success in having turned Cade. That's not Cade winning the duel. It is Krayt losing it.

Even in the "Apprentice. Did you see?" panel. Right there. A Krayt who wanted to kill Cade should, with what would basically amount to a flick of his left wrist, easily end him in manner much quicker than the move Cade would soon pull off.

Not only is it indeed a Kenobi/Maul scenario, it's actually worse. At least in TPM, Maul wasn't able to see the lightsaber coming from behind him, so it could be somewhat surprising. Here, the lightsaber is directly in Krayt's field of vision. He has to see that coming.

It's right here for everyone to see. I'm not making this up. Other than the killing blow, which only made possible via plot device, at what point was Cade in control of the fight?

I also didn't say Ahsoka was "impressive" in her defeat against Barriss. What I said what I thought she performed relatively well given the extenuating circumstances I laid out. And then I said it again, basically.

I mean... if we somehow could project Rebels Ahsoka into that fight with Barriss, I don't think it's much of contest at all. I showed the fight because I believe Ahsoka performed well once we take into account all the extenuating circumstances I laid out, but it ultimately has little overall bearing when considering peak-Ahsoka.

What moments in the fight specifically? Well, there's the sequence from 0:18-0:30. That's not bad, considering. Then from 1:10 right up until steam in eyes isn't bad. But yeah, Barriss controlled that fight. Never said she didn't. I'm not talking out of both sides of my mouth here. But addition to everything else, Barriss also basically chose the location of the fight, knew it well (it's where she was storing her nano droids, after all) and knew how take advantage of the environment. Ahsoka was at a disadvantage in so many ways, and yeah, she lost clean. Fine. But I refer you back to my italicized quote just above. It's nowhere near peak Ahsoka. So what's even the big deal?

But that fight was peak Cade. That's as good as he ever got, and I didn't find him particularly impressive in that fight. He's impressed me plenty elsewhere in the series, though. Never once said he's not outstanding. But it's also not my job, as the opposing GM, to go out of my way to highlight his feats.

I'm not buying your interpretation of the fight, though. I do not agree.