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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Games The 25th Jedi Draft - The Silver Anniversary Edition!! (Champion: Point Given!)

Discussion in 'Star Wars Community' started by Darth_Furio , Jul 1, 2017.

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  1. Wang Chi

    Wang Chi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Oh snap, this is gonna be a helluva of a team battle. I honestly don't know how I'm going to scrape together the time to give this one the attention it deserves. Plus I still need to defend Fay AND, because she hit someone she couldn't beat and got no argument, I need to explain why I drafted Ahsoka where I did. Yipes.
     
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  2. The Vanguard

    The Vanguard Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2016
  3. Mikaboshi

    Mikaboshi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 12, 2005
  4. Darth_Furio

    Darth_Furio Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2008
    Results

    Numbers 1, 4, 6, 10

    Rebel Division Matches

    Skywalker_T-65 (5) vs. RX_Sith (5)

    1. Wolf Sazen/Shado Vao vs. 1. Zekk
    4. Anakin Skywalker vs. 4. Sylvar Trumped with Raskta Lsu (FORFEIT)
    6. Celeste Morne TRUMPED with Zayne Carrick (FORFEIT) vs.6. Mace Windu
    10. Nat Skywalker vs. 10. Kanan Jarrus/Ezra Bridger

    DarthIntegral (4) vs. Point Given (6)

    1. Nomi Sunrider RIDING Thon TRUMPED with Cay-Qel Droma and Totts Donneeta (FORFEIT) vs. .1.Desann/Tavion Axmis
    4. Shigar Koshi vs, 4. Vestara Khai/Gavar Khai
    6. Mara Jade Skyalker (PREPARED) vs. 6. Antares Draco/Ganner Krieg
    10. Ganner TRUMPED with Kol Skywalker (FORFEIT) vs. 10. K'Kruhk

    Mkaboshi (8) vs. ma_petite (2)

    1. Darth Caedus vs. 1. Corran Horn
    4. Lumiya vs. 4. Neeja Halcyon
    6. Mother Talzin (PREP) vs. 6. Kylo Ren
    10. 5th Brother/7th Sister vs. 10. Cilghal (PREP)

    Empire Division Matches

    DarkEagle (5) vs. Wang Chi (5)

    1. Darth Traya (prep) vs.1. Ki-Adi Mundi/Oppo Rancisis
    4. Darth Sidious vs. 4. Ahsoka Tano
    6. Vaylin vs, 6. Tresina Lobi trumped with Saba Sebatyne (FORFEIT)
    10. Lord Kaan/Lord Kas'im vs. 10. Arca Jeth

    Anakin.Skywalker (7) vs. PRENNTACULAR (3)

    1. Darth Marr vs. 1. Galen Marek
    4. Kar Vastor vs. 4. Lowbacca / Tesar TRUMPED with Octa Ramis (FORFEIT)
    6. The Grand Inquisitor vs. 6. Tahiri Veila / Ikrit TRUMPED with Sarro Xaj (FORFEIT)
    10. Darth Maladi vs. 10. Reynar Thul

    cubman987 (7) vs. The Vanguard (3)

    1. Darth Nihilus TRUMPED Darth Sion vs. 1. Kerra Holt
    4. Darth Vitiate vs. 4. Kyp Durron
    6. Darth Sion TRUMPED Darth Nihilus (FORFEIT) vs. 6.Rahm Kota
    10. Darth Stryfe TRUMPED Darth Azard/Darth Havok (FORFEIT) vs. 10. An'ya Kuro (prepped)

    So, We have two matches going to teams...

    @Skywalker_T-65 vs. RX_Sith


    Skywalker_T-65

    1. Anakin Skywalker
    2. Ulic Qel-Droma
    3. Cade Skywalker
    4. Ben Skywalker
    5. Aryn Leneer/Ven Zallow
    6. Wolf Sazen/Shado Vao
    7. Nat Skywalker
    8. Gnost Dural
    9. Celeste Morne
    10. Zayne Carrick

    RX_Sith

    1. Mace Windu
    2. Kyle Katarn
    3. Asajj Ventress
    4. Raskta Lsu
    5. Kanan Jarrus/Ezra Bridger
    6. Zekk
    7. Jolee Bindo/Juhani
    8. Roan Fel
    9. Sylvar

    10. Githany

    @DarkEagle vs. Wang Chi

    DarkEagle

    Darth Sidious
    Darth Zannah
    Darth Krayt
    Vaylin
    Lord Kaan/Lord Kas'im
    Sora Bulq
    Darth Traya
    Sarasu Taalon
    Viun Gaalan
    Jerec/Sariss

    Wang Chi

    Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Ahsoka Tano
    Saba Sebatyne
    Leia Organa-Solo
    Kit Fisto/Oppo Rancisis
    Arca Jeth
    Ki-Adi Mundi/Aayla Secura
    Qui-Gon Jinn
    Tresina Lobi
    Fay

    DarkEagle
    Skywalker_T-65
     
  5. Skywalker_T-65

    Skywalker_T-65 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2009
    I'll try to get an arg up tomorrow, when I'm less completely burnt out.
     
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  6. Wang Chi

    Wang Chi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2013
    I'll see about getting the Ahsoka and Fay stuff done later tonight (at the very least one of those). Tomorrow's no good, but I hope to have everything up by Monday night. [face_peace]
     
  7. Darth_Furio

    Darth_Furio Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2008
    Good Luck gents all.
     
  8. Skywalker_T-65

    Skywalker_T-65 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Right, more worn out than I thought I was. This won't be a really long arg, but I'll at least get it together.

    1. Anakin Skywalker = 1. Mace Windu
    2. Ulic Qel-Droma = 2. Kyle Katarn
    3. Cade Skywalker < 3. Asajj Ventress
    4. Ben Skywalker > 4. Raskta Lsu
    5. Aryn Leneer/Ven Zallow > 5. Kanan Jarrus/Ezra Bridger
    6. Wolf Sazen/Shado Vao >>> 6. Zekk
    7. Nat Skywalker > 7. Jolee Bindo/Juhani
    8. Gnost Dural > 8. Roan Fel
    9. Celeste Morne > 9. Sylvar
    10. Zayne Carrick < 10. Githany

    Power: I know, I know. 'they won't bunch up by neat numbers'. Still, a direct power comparison down the line is the proper start to any team argument. And in this regard, it's safe to say that mid/backfield I have the edge. I rate Ben better than Raskta because all we have on her is rep and the duel on Tython...which was with Battle Meditation backup she doesn't have here. Aryn/Ven are probably more cohesive than Kanan/Ezra because of the issues with skirting the Dark Side and Maul the latter has. They aren't uncohesive, but they aren't as cohesive as the Master/Apprentice pair from TOR either. Not in the sense of 'oh, Kanan and Ezra won't work together or can be forced apart' but in the sense that 'Aryn and Ven won't have any real issues with reading the other's actions'. Wolf and Shado eat Zekk alive (honestly, I don't see him as a particularly great pick in the 9th, leave alone 6th).

    Nat should be able to handle Jolee and Juhani. Those two are a natural trump, yes, but we can't use KOTOR as too much an example for the side-cast. Revan and Textile, sure, you can get feats. The side cast you only have the forced encounters...which means Dark!Bastila for Jolee and Catgirl. Not much to go off, and the rest of their experience is very limited. Nat isn't great, but he's stronger than they are.

    Gnost should be able to handle Roan. I would need to dig up TLI's old arg for him...oh why not. Let's steal the quotes, at least, and write my own words after them.

    Gnost is no Jocasta Nu, I'm going to say that right now.

    Gnost is no slouch, when he does fight.
    Seriously, this guy knows his stuff. He's a badass librarian.
    Gnost could very, very easily be a battlemaster if he wanted. Imagine Kyle as a librarian and you have him. He can, and will, change forms on the fly.
    The important bit here, I feel, is in a team battle he goes into it prepped. Gnost is going to be a very useful bonus for the team, in this regard. Couple this with Anakin and Ulic's tactical skills? Yes please.
    The guy can change a situation around in seconds. While naked, because why not.

    The important bits to note here, are that Gnost is no stranger to dueling multiple enemies who are of lower skill than him. Say, a team battle where he can distract multiple low-ranking people on the enemy team allowing the others to take down stronger guys and then join in. Alternatively, take down the weaker ones himself and then help with the stronger ones.

    This really speaks for itself, I feel. I don't have the requisite materials myself, or I'd use them myself. Have to steal from TLI. And this is mostly for Ken's benefit :p

    (I make no guarantee's about how the quotes worked, since I needed to copy and then spoiler tag them)

    Celeste I would say is better than Sylvar. The latter has more experience on paper and against a larger variety of foes, while Celeste has going up against Vader and Krayt under her belt. Sure she didn't win either of those...but then, Sylvar couldn't beat an Ulic who was years out of practice and had no connection to the Force. Impressive that she could stalemate him, sure, but not a huge ringing endorsement either. Celeste should be able to take her.

    Zayne is Zayne, and honestly, Githany's lightwhip is going to throw him for a whirl. On the other hand, she was struggling with bats to the point she lost an eye. While Zayne will have issues with her, she won't last long against...well, just about anyone else.


    Anyway

    The important thing to note, through all of this, is that from Ben on down- with the exception of Githany -I would argue I have the edge in skill and power. Both of our teams have the same numbers, so no edge there. The problem is that the top ranks are much more even. Anakin, I think, can beat Mace given enough time. Peak Anakin is more powerful than Mace, and while Samuel L. Jedi has more raw saber ability thanks to Vaapad...Anakin adapts. Quickly. He always has. Without being tired- he hadn't slept in how long again by the time he dueled Kenobi? -or mentally unstable, Anakin should be able to handle Mace. It won't be quick or easy, but I think he can still do it. Plus those two are going right after each other, no questions asked.

    Kyle and Ulic is so close it isn't even funny. Neither has any distinct power edge- Kyle may have more variety -and neither has any real saber skill advantage. Ulic is the best duelist of his time, and arguably one of the very best duelists in history. But then, so is Katarn. Kyle can keep going despite horrible wounds...but Ulic stalemated Kun while wounded and poisoned. I'm not confident in saying which of them would win. 50/50 probably.

    Cade and Ventress...Cade has more raw power, Ventress has arguably more skill. Again, very close.

    This is why the backfield is so very important. If my top three can keep their top three busy long enough (possibly take one or more down) then my bottom rank can clean out RX and join in the fight. Ben is very important here. Critically so. That's for later though.

    Cohesion: I tend to put more stock in this than most, I admit, in team battles. Even so, there is a clear edge for my team. Mace, Kyle and Ventress are going to bump heads...a lot. The prep period is going to be at least half them trying to assert their own ideas. I say this, because there is no clear leader. Mace or Kyle could take the roll, but would Mace subordinate himself to Katarn? Would Kyle agree to let Mace- who probably isn't wanting to work with Ventress or Roan -lead the team? Furthermore, Raksta will be an issue with the more dark-inclined members of that team. And beyond that, these people come from a spread of eras with no real connecting pieces.

    Kyle and Zekk know each other, but no one else.

    Mace knows literally no one- other than the less than friendly Ventress -, unless he briefly met Kanan at some point.

    Raskta is alone.

    Roan and Githany are alone. Jolee and Juhani only have themselves. Kanan and Ezra only have themselves.

    Githany is an unrepentant Sith.

    Cohesion is going to be a problem on that team. Not team breaking, but they aren't going to work very well together either. Too much personality and belief conflict, without enough connections to balance it.

    My team, by contrast, is a much more cohesive unit. There are no glaring issues as far as 'I hate you' on my team. Anakin and Ulic, the designated leaders, are familiar with one another thanks to the old Clone Wars game. Both of them are going to work together and there will be no issues of a power struggle at the top. Cade is a bit of a wild card, sure, but he's shown himself capable of being a follower and he has Celeste and Wolf to mellow him out. Ben is an insanely good strategist- so are Anakin and Ulic -given the time. Gnost is a wealth of knowledge and no slouch in coming up with plans to deal with an enemy himself. I have the inter-Skywalker connections, along with the connections in eras.

    Legacy: Cade, Celeste, Wolf/Shado, Nat

    PT: Anakin, Ulic's ghost

    TOR: Aryn/Ven, Gnost

    Ben is an oddball here, but he has the Skywalker connections.

    Zayne could be seen as an outlier, but he has Celeste. And Celeste ties all these groups together, aside from the TOR gang. And Gnost can help there by working with Celeste who he probably knows about from his research. My team is a cohesive whole with...

    Intangibles: Very, very good strategists. Anakin Skywalker and Ulic Qel-Droma are born leaders. People follow them. Moreover, both of them are better strategists than their bull-headed reps would indicate. They know how to plan a battle and how to take advantage of what they have. This cannot be understated, especially with the connections mentioned above. They can meld this team into a whole that will be able to go head to head with the enemy in the best way possible. Because, even leaving out the top-two's skills in this regard...

    Ben. Bloody. Skywalker.

    He was a bit naive in regards to Jacen, perhaps, but his GAG training cannot be understated. This is a Jedi who has unorthodox training from both his mother and the best spies the Galactic Alliance could muster. He knows his stuff and is quite intelligent as well. He can identify weaknesses on the enemy team, and how to exploit them. Say...send Gnost to keep Githany busy, because he's the one most likely to adapt to her whip. While Zayne and Celeste deal with Roan. Just as an example.

    And, on that note, as above...Gnost. He can find weaknesses in the enemy on the fly. Given prep time and Ben's insight, he can find any and all weaknesses on the enemy team in record time.


    In all:

    I think my team has just enough edges in the mid-low tiers to balance out the evenness at the top. Between the greater power I have sub-4 on my team, plus the cohesiveness edge, plus Ben and Gnost able to plan out the fight...I think my team can pull through this one.
     
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  9. Wang Chi

    Wang Chi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Sorry for the delay, all. Had a few things come up that sapped my time and energy the last couple of days. However, the plans I had for my day off tomorrow fell through, so I actually have a very, very rare day all to myself. I'm thinking nothing but junk food, beer, catching up on some TV and video games, and I suppose I can spare a couple hours to rant about my team. ;) Thanks for the patience.
     
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  10. Skywalker_T-65

    Skywalker_T-65 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2009
    I'm just interested where the judges are leaning...
     
  11. DarkEagle

    DarkEagle Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2009
    Ugh. I just closed the wrong tab and deleted the majority of my post. *swears a lot* Ugh. [face_plain]
     
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  12. DarkEagle

    DarkEagle Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2009
    Attempt #2

    Make The Darkside Great Again vs Dirty Ben and The Boyz (and Girlz)

    Sidious > Obi-Wan
    Zannah > Ahsoka
    Krayt > Saba
    Vaylin > Leia
    Kas'im/Kaan > Arca
    Bulq = Kit/Aayla
    Traya < Mundi/Oppo
    Taalon > Qui-gon
    Gaalan > Tresina Lobi
    Jerec/Sariss > Fay

    That's how I see us stacking up, though maybe I'm wrong on one or two of those. Either way, there's an undeniable edge to my side at the top end. We've seen Sidious slaughter some of the "best swordsmen in the Jedi Order" in no time flat. How long is Fisto gonna last this time? Twice as long is still only like 20 seconds :p. Zannah can outduel anyone but Kenobi, same for Krayt. Vaylin out powers everyone of the other team except maybe Kenobi. Maybe. Kas'im's bladeskill gives him an advantage over most of the other team and a fighting chance against those that are more equal with him.

    Vaylin
    Vaylin's power was already pretty bonkers- Knights of the Eternal Throne has put it way through the roof.
    You can count the guys that scare Valkorian/Vitiate on one hand; Revan was utterly dismantled by this guy.

    Watch 1:35-5:20 and 6:10-6:40

    Here you can see that Lana Beniko - a fully fledged and capable Sith (she helped take down Revan Reborn) - is scared to face Vaylin, even trumped with the Outlander. "We're not ready- not for Vaylin" Vaylin easily crushes that giant door that Lana struggles with and then later chucks half a skyscraper at them. When Lana and Vaylin tangle later, Lana is completely outclassed.
    Senya is not someone to be sneezed at- she's taken on Vaylin before when Vaylin's powers were still largely locked. When she faces her at full power, she's well outclassed in power (I have no idea how all the lightside teams passed on Senya. Totally should have been picked).
    The Outlander would easily be first-round power in this draft.

    Vaylin has tangled with the Outlander and Arcann, used the Force to overwhelm Arcann and Senya and almost the Outlander, and protected herself from explosions that should have vaporized her. You can check this thread for a larger collection of her powers (lots of chucking heavy objects, killing elite Force troops, etc)

    Taalon
    Taalon handled Ben Skywalker without much trouble and almost killed him. There's a pretty good case made for Ben a few posts above this one if you want a refresh.
    Bulq is quite skilled, Gaalan is as well (and can casually decapitate rancors), Jerec is a master of Makashi and was able to easily stun and kill a Jedi Master, and Sariss has some bladeskill and weird Force powers.

    Sorcery
    Zannah's got full prep time to get some sweet Sith Sorcery ready for this fight, which no one on the other team has encountered before.

    Battle Meditation
    Kind of a wash here as we both have some pretty good BM users.
    That's not near as incredible as you make it seem. We've seen other BM users hold armies together for months at a time (Kaan on Ruusan) and others try to use BM to affect an entire war (Kaan and Caedus, with no training).
    Cohesion
    Yeah, I think Wang's team may have me here :p


    Wasn't Ventress stealing the Republic's battle plans at that point? Why would she stick around fighting while Republic reinforcements arrive when the information she's got is so important?
    She's also up against someone who is quite familiar with her powers and capabilities. It's telling that when they meet later, Traya crushes Sion.


    At the end of the day, my side's advantage in power is enough to secure them the win. Dirty Ben has the advantage in cohesion, but the Power of Friendship (tm) can only take you so far against duelists that outskill you and are well beyond you in the Force.
     
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  13. Darth_Furio

    Darth_Furio Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2008
    I watched those expansions like a movie and for myself, I think Vaylin and Arcann are pretty impressive. Vaylin especially.
     
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  14. Wang Chi

    Wang Chi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Gonna start with Ahsoka here (and get to the rest bit by bit throughout the day). I can understand her lukewarm reception as a second round pick, and I also understand that some just reeeeally just don't like the character. Believe me, I used to be one of them. Clone Wars movie/first season Ahsoka bugged the **** out of me. Too Mary Sue-ish, too precocious, too many lines like "Come on, boys. Let's scrap these tinnies!" Blech! BLECH! In fact, aside from a few standout episodes, I really didn't like that first season of the show. They were still clearly feeling things out, and that one where Dooku/Anakin/Kenobi get captured by those pirates remains one of the biggest facepalm moments in the show's history, IMO. Plus we'd just gone through an entire series of books and comics that spanned the gap between Eps. II and III with Anakin having no apprentice, so it was all very jarring.

    But by the time season 3 was in full swing, the show had grown on me, and begrudgingly, so had Ahsoka. She still had some of those Mary Sue traits (and always would), but they were making clear efforts at developing her character, and by the time the show ended, they'd somehow made me a fan (not a HUGE fan, but she's definitely on the positive side of the love/hate scale for me now). And I thought they handled her pretty well in Rebels as well. Anyways...

    None of that really has anything to do with her draft status, but it's just some context for the pick. I'm not going to bog us all down with countless videos showing her progression and all her feats from start to finish, even though they are substantial and it would definitely help my case for her by giving it more context. But really... I don't wanna. :p Not today, anyway. For determining the level of peak-Ahsoka, only one fight matters. This one:



    (The video I linked includes the Kanan/Ezra scenes so that we can see how long the duel really took, rather than the ones that skip it, making the duel seem much shorter than it was)

    Here's what I love about this particular battle: It was pure. What do I mean by pure? I mean that, unlike so many other battles we reference from the books, comics, whatever, there was no BS here. None. No one interfered in the battle for one side or the other, there were no distractions, neither character was tired or just coming off an extended duel with someone else, no plot devices coming into play, nothing like that. It was just the two of them, blade-to-blade, no excuses, on a battlefield that was a flat, even platform. Again, pure.

    And she lost.

    Okay, yeah, she lost. IMO, for the purposes of this draft, the duel ended when Vader knocked her off the platform. He could jumped down and finished her there had he wanted. The part where Ahsoka does tag him while he's distracted is indicative of nothing. And whatever happened after Ezra lost sight of the battle is an unknown. We know Vader limped away and we don't know what happened to Ahsoka.

    Right, so she lost to peak-Vader in an extended duel after an initial flurry where they seemed equals, but then he gains the advantage in relatively short order and begins to push her back, slowly overwhelming her defenses until she is ultimately pushed off the edge. She is not as good as him. She did, however, hold her own against him for an extended period of time, by herself, no excuses, no extenuating circumstances. And that said, I ask this simple question:

    Isn't that precisely what you want out of a good second round pick? Especially a lower second round pick? To have shown to be able to, at the very least, keep a first round talent occupied for extended stretch of time? If they could consistently BEAT a first round talent, then they'd BE a first round talent.

    To me, Vader belongs in that 5-7 pick range, and so is a perfect mid-first round talent to use for this little experiment. Put any of the other second round picks against Vader in the exact same situation Ahsoka faced him in, and how do they fare? Obviously, this is just my opinion, but in reverse order:

    Kyle - Honestly, I feel it plays out almost the exact same way. A brief flurry at the start where it's unclear who is superior, but Vader quickly establishes dominance. Too much power, and he just seems to get stronger as the fight goes on. Kyle lasts quite a while, much like Ahsoka, but is eventually overwhelmed, much like Ahsoka. Too many plot devices were going on with his duel with Caedus to give us a truly accurate representation of how he'd fare in a neutral setting against an opponent like Vader. He had help, and also the goal was to plant the tacker on Caedus, not to kill him. I truly cannot picture Kyle doing any better than Ahsoka against Vader in that setting.

    Starkiller - Never read TFU novelization, actually. So I can't say for sure. If their battle was anything at all like the game, then yeah, Starkiller does better in that situation. And had he made it down to me, I probably would've picked him over Ahsoka.

    Maul - Tricky. That duel in Tales that they had can't be canon anymore, right? The one where Vader stabs through his own torso to kill the Maul... clone? Was it a clone? Anyways, I'd say Maul doesn't do quite as well as her. I'd give her a slight edge in skill and power, and they both have plenty of great experience. But opinions may vary here.

    Malgus - Hey, Vader vs Vader-lite. :p Uh... yeah, I'd say Malgus maybe lasts a little longer and puts up a better fight before being defeated. Maybe. It could also be possible that trying to power-duel Vader makes it end quicker. That's just trying to beat him at his own game, and that ends badly. Ahsoka's more finesse based style could be considered to be able to draw the fight out longer. Eh. Up for debate. They both lose, though.

    Sharad Hett - ....

    Ulic - Hmmm, yeah, probably a tad better against Vader than Ahsoka managed. Not by some huge degree, though. I'd say power levels are similar, edge in known experience to Ahsoka, but I'd give Ulic a bit of skill edge. The fight between Ulic and Vader definitely look different due to the styles at work, but I can't say that it lasts all that much longer. Ultimately, though, I would've likely picked Ulic had he made it to me and then taken Ahsoka as my 3rd. Didn't work out that way.

    Kyp - No, I don't think he does as well as Ahsoka. Power-wise, he matches up better against Vader, but in terms of known experience and skill showings, he simply doesn't have it. I wish he did. I really do. But he doesn't. Had he been available, I still would've picked Ahsoka over him, much as it hurts to say (Curse you, Denning AND your stupid grudge!).

    Bane - Yeah, Bane vs. Vader is definitely closer. I think Bane is the strongest second round pick that was made expect for...

    Vader - :p Okay, whatever. Let's just say for the sake of argument that Vader is the real first-rounder on that team and that this is Revan. Fine. Yeah, Revan is better than Ahsoka. He sill doesn't beat Vader mano y mano, but it's def a closer fight.

    Zannah - Actually I don't think Z holds much of an edge over Ahsoka in terms of lightsaber skill, if there is an edge at all. Power? Sure, especially in terms of unique uses of the power with the sorcery and all. So yeah, power advantage. Ahsoka crushes in known dueling experience, though. In that neutral setting against Vader, does Z last any longer against Vader? If she does, it'a purely because of Soresu, which could drag things out more. She certainly doesn't win, though.

    Satele - Roughly the same as Ahsoka, I'd say. Maybe a skotch better because of a power edge.

    So who were my options? Who did I pass on that would've been a better 2nd rounder for this particular squad? When it came time to make that 2nd pick, my list looked like this:

    Ahsoka
    Mara
    Saba
    Satele
    Cade
    Textile

    Cade only so low because I really wanted to build squad that would run silky smooth during a team battle. I specifically wanted no part of his BS in teams. I really agonized over Ahsoka and Mara. That prep, tho. But I was fine as long as I got one of her or Saba to lead the small NJO group I wanted to support a PT-heavy team, and I was pretty sure Inty was going the way he did. If he'd gone Mara/Saba, that would've thrown me off. Not because I would've been too disappointed with Satele, but she just doesn't have as many lower round, super cohesive options as the NJO ladies do.

    None of those other are even close to the cohesion level of Kenobi and Ahsoka, and in a straight up fight, she's right there with any of them, IMO. Plug any one of them into that Vader experiment if you like, and once again, I don't think ANY of them fare significantly better than Ahsoka. That's why I picked her where I did.
     
  15. KenKenobi

    KenKenobi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2002
    You could make the same argument for lots of people-- "Desann held his own against Luke Skywalker, could Malgus do any better?" Or actually Desann beat Luke, and since Vader got housed by green-saber Luke...Desann > Vader?

    Player A > Player B and B > C does not equal A > C. If you think Ahsoka could beat Zannah, tell us how that'd go down instead of how Zannah would lose to Vader (or lose worse I guess, Snips didn't come close to winning that fight).

    I like Ahsoka fyi, I'm just not buying that reasoning.

    EDIT: That goes double for whoever is gonna try to argue Desann > Vader now

    DOUBLE EDIT: also Wang if cohesion + showings against Vader/1st-round talent was your benchmark, WHY WASN'T KENOBI'S LOVER VENTRESS ON UR LIST =((
     
  16. Yodaminch

    Yodaminch Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2002
    More importantly, please address the Sidious/Kenobi issue. Yoda flat out tells Obi-Wan he isn't strong enough to face Sidious. And even Yoda struggles before losing his saber and being forced to flee. Even Mace struggles (if you believe Mace beat him and Sidious wasn't just playing it up to turn Anakin that is). And as good as Ahsoka is, you're going to really need to sell me on how she can free herself up to help Obi-Wan, because he is the only Sidious will go after and as Yoda said, Obi-Wan is not strong enough to face Sidious alone. The only way you win is if the upper tier quickly frees themselves up to assist Obi-Wan in taking down Sidious. And we do know that Sidious handles multiple opponents quickly. Good chance Kyle gets stabbed in the stomach again for instance. And I love Leia, but we saw Sidious make quick work of Luke once he started elecrocuting him.
     
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  17. KenKenobi

    KenKenobi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2002
    Pretty sure Kyle is in the other match.
     
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  18. Point Given

    Point Given Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2006
    That's like half the reason I drafted Desann
     
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  19. Wang Chi

    Wang Chi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2013
    That wasn't the point of the post. It wasn't to argue her vs. anyone specifically (although some of that did creep into those comparisons), but just to give my opinion on her general level, or tier, as of her known peak, which is Rebels. I'm fairly certain that this was the highest she's ever been drafted by a long shot, so I felt I needed to justify it now, because of course I wasn't going to make any kind of argument for her against Sidious.

    When I argue her against someone specifically, you'll know, because there'll be probably around 40 Youtube clips in that argument.

    The whole point was not to say A > B and B > C, so A > C. I don't put any stock in that, either. It was more to say, very generally, that I wasn't out of my mind picking her that high. Of course she wasn't going to win that fight. Never said she could.



    Thought about it for sure. Happier with Saba as my 3rd, but even though I really doubted that Ventress would make it all the way back around, I thought I might try for some kind of trade. But then it started to become clear that Vastor was gonna be my trade chip, and oh crap, PRENN drafted her onto the Mace team. In hindsight, I really should've thought harder about some three-way trade scenarios. Ah well.

    EDIT: Working on it, minch. To put it very simply for the time being, my team is waaaaay more than the sum of its parts. It's cohesion personified.

    Also, Old Ben > Mace. Ken was saying it over a decade ago, but I'll admit that I never fully bought it until recently. His duel against Maul in Rebels solidified it for me, though. Old Ben Kenobi is his peak. His knowledge in The Force and his focus is at its best, he's achieved a level of calm and serenity that can be matched by almost no one, and his skill is refined to the highest possible degree. No excess movements, just maximum efficiency.

    He's the single best leader in the draft, his experience is off the charts, and what he may lack in raw Force ability when compared to biggest of the big guns is offset by not only those things, but also by him being arguably, ARGUABLY, the best pure swordsman in the entire draft aside from Luke.

    I did not forget about Yoda when I drafted Kenobi 3rd, and I certainly didn't forget about Mace. While I may not be able to quite argue him over Yoda if they hit each other in an individual match (hence me saying I wasn't entirely sure I could justify it when I made the pick), when it comes to team battles, I absolutely can justify it. No one is a better choice to build a team around, especially one as cohesive as this one.
     
  20. KenKenobi

    KenKenobi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2002
    Where you drafted her doesn't really matter at this point, if you're trying to say she can hang with the people you listed...then argue how she can hang with those people and not how those people could hang with Vader relative to her. That's all I'm sayin.

    That and I wanna see a Kenobi/Ventress team one day.


    omg what was the other half
     
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  21. Point Given

    Point Given Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2006
    He's a dinosaur.
     
  22. Wang Chi

    Wang Chi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2013
    If it makes you feel any better, Kenny, I did go with a Kenobi/Ventress trump in the SFD a while back (Holy crap, was that seriously almost three years ago already? Wut the hell is going on with this whole time progression thing? It sucks.)

    So, I'm just going to get into the meat of the actual team battle now instead of finishing up Fay (maybe tomorrow for her). It's been long enough and we need to move on, methinks.

    I don't really like doing the whole individual breakdown thing anymore (it really doesn't mean much of anything for teams), but in this case, I'll humor it. Why not?

    Completely in a vacuum, in a non-team battle scenario (And I really, REALLY want to stress that these have **** all to do with how these play out in teams), here's how I see the individual matchups:

    Kenobi < Sidious - In the end, too much power, despite everything I said just a few hours ago.

    Ahsoka < Zannah - *gasp* Yep, that's right. My long post on Ahsoka aside, I just don't think I could justify putting her over Z one-on-one, no prep involved. The skill may be really damned close, Ahsoka may have the known experience, but damn, it's that power edge again. And I'm not sure she could handle that mind fragging sorcery from a peak Z without any kind of foreknowledge.

    Saba <= Krayt - ****! I'm 0-3 at the top! How ever can I possibly win this?! I do think this one is really close, but sone of a B, if it isn't that pesky power edge again! I'm gonna assume here that Krayt doesn't suffer from plot-induced stupidity like he did against Cade. I mean, he should've won. Hell, he pretty much did win. Saba's an absolute monster with the blade, and her power isn't lacking at all either (her Force Valor is top of the line, for example). What she did against that Abeloth avatar was amazing. Still... if I'm being honest, I would probably give peak, resurrected Krayt 6-7 out of 10 against her... call it a 6.5.

    Leia < Vaylin - Yeah, I'll even go here. Without having ever played the game, I'm still impressed enough with Vaylin to say that she is probably better than Leia and would beat her one-on-one. Leia... always should've been better. Even when she decided to stop ****ing around and became Saba's apprentice, I always felt like she was holding something back. I don't know about her being bathed in light and all, but compared to the meteoric rise of her twin and every one of her children, what was stopping her when she decided to stop screwing around? This isn't to say I think she's terrible. Far, far from it. But what the hell, Denning?

    Kit/Aayla > Kaan/Kas'im - Ya mixed up my 5th and 6th rounders, DE! How dare you?! I'm not at all impressed by Kaan (as I'll get into momentarily), and this is not a match where he can settle down and provide BM support. Given his complete and utter lack of combat feats, Kit can more than hold his own against Kas'im while Aayla dispatches Kaan in relatively short order. True cohesion (as opposed to the superficial and shallow cohesion of a couple of backstabbing Sith), as well as a skill... and I daresay even a power advantage win the day.

    Arca => Bulq - Skill is quite close, but Arca is just too powerful, IMO. That said, Arca may have another purpose in this battle.

    Ki-Adi/Oppo > Traya

    Qui-Gon > Taalon - Yeah, I just really disagree here. If Taalon had more feats outside of the Pool boosting, then maybe it's closer, but he doesn't.

    Lobi => Gaalan - Battle of the One-Battle Wonders, but I think Lobi was more a bit more impressive in defeat than Gaalan was in retreat (hehe, rhymes...) I mean, this one really could make for a good extended debate, but it's practically a wash, IMO.

    Fay ? Jerec/Sariss - And I really mean that question mark. Maybe I'll get to argue it before the calls are made, maybe not. Whatever.


    So yeah, I do acknowledge that DE's team does have a power advantage, especially at the top. Sidious is tough to overcome, and it is a very powerful group of individuals. But what it is not is a TEAM.

    Leadership - Sids isn't half the leader that Kenobi is. Not even close. Here's a fun game: Name the times that Sidious has fought in tandem with someone else. Anyone else. No, seriously, I'll wait. His master? Any of his apprentices? I'm actually pretty sure that there has to be at least one or two obscure examples out there that I either haven't heard of or have forgotten about, but for the moment, I'm drawing a blank. An absolute blank.

    C'mon. Anything. Jut something where Sidious fights alongside ONE. OTHER. PERSON.

    Again, there maybe is something that I don't remember, but find that one thing for me and I'll counter you with 50 examples of Kenobi being a leader and/or fighting as part of a team (Felucia. Saleucami, Mandalore, Kamino, etc). Maybe then there's a second obscure example and then I'll counter it with an additional 150 more (Utapau, Florrum, Lola Sayu and the list goes on and on and on and on and on...).

    Perhaps he's not always successful, but he learns from his failures. Every time. And he knows how to extract, and more importantly, inspire the absolute best from his teammates.

    Sidious is a snake. He doesn't lead. He intimidates. And that's all well and good I suppose, for a unit comprised of individuals. But under his so-called leadership, they will never, ever be anything more than that.

    After I get some sleep, I'll actually get to the specifics of the team's cohesion, as well as the intangibles that should put them over the top.
     
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  23. Lenea_Sandstrider

    Lenea_Sandstrider Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    For what it's worth, I only do the power breakdown as a general comparison in the team. I'm well aware it won't match up evenly, outside maybe the top tier- especially if you have people who know each other.

    I still maintain it has a use in general terms though. :p
     
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  24. DarkEagle

    DarkEagle Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2009
    Your cohesion is pretty good, yes, but "cohesion personified?"o_O You've got old-timey Arca, a bunch of PT Jedi, and then Leia, Saba, Lobi who are kinda off on their own.

    Haven't you said that Rebels Maul is well past his peak? Beating up on cripples doesn't make you the best fighter around.

    So make that argument. I don't think it's any bit of a stretch to have Kenobi 4 or 5 spots below where you think he should be in terms of swordsmanship. Last time I watched ROTS, I saw Dooku outdueling Kenobi....

    The point was to highlight the significant disadvantage your team has compared to mine at the top end. Ok, maybe your cohesion lets you flip some fights that would be otherwise be close. Still doesn't make up for the large power disparity that my top guys create over yours.

    Whoops, went by memory :(
    wut :confused:
    And not a combat feat, but still worth noting:
    -----
    And what does Qui-Gon have that's comparable to what (admitted little amount) Taalan has shown? The fight against Ben was before the Pool. Qui-Gon is like the many "off-season champions" that are seen so often in sports. When the games aren't being played, everyone (IU) is hyping him up as "one of the best swordsmen in the Jedi Order" but he hasn't shown anything to indicate he's deserving of the reputation. And when it comes time to walk the walk, he's thoroughly outclassed (I've already shown that Maul was well in control of their fight from the get-go).
    Does he in Darth Plagueis? He does in Lords of the Sith (though that is NuCanon). Also, by virtue of having killed all his enemies, who's he going to fight against? "Yo Vader, all this pondering immortality stuff has gotten me bored. Whaddya say we go out for a night on the town and get ourselves in a real barfight? Just like the good 'ol days"....that would actually make a half-decent Detours skit [face_thinking]

    How's he going to learn from his mistakes here? He hasn't faced Sidious before. He rarely wins the first time he faces off against someone (Maul being the only case....and then he was getting tossed around when they faced off again in TCW).
     
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  25. Wang Chi

    Wang Chi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Hey! Hey I wasn't finished! You can't respond yet! Take it back!

    :p

    Sorry, I legit fell asleep at the keyboard last night. Man, that hasn't happened in forever.

    The one part of that I'll respond to right now is that saying Kas'im had no combat feats was a poorly worded sentence on my part. I meant Kaan. And don't worry, I'll be getting to him shortly.

    Alright, as to the cohesion of them teams themselves. MtDGA is fine collection of individuals. There are connections within the pairings, obviously (even though Kaan and Kas'im is a little thin), and Taalon and Gaalan have a good theoretical connection. But there really isn't much else aside from that.

    As to my team's:

    C'mon. Really?

    Okay, so Obi-Wan at the top. No better leader in the draft or for this particular squad especially.

    Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon may have fought together on occasion. They're kinda close.

    Obi-Wan and Ahsoka may have worked together once or twice.

    Obi and Qui and Ki-Adi might be kinda cohesive.

    And hey, look at those sabers moving "faster than the eye could follow". Hooray for descriptive wording! :p

    Obi-Wan and Kit are really close, and work exceptionally well together in The Cestus Deception. They're not Master/Padawan cohesive, but are on that next level down.

    Ditto for Kit and Aayla, who practically are on that level cohesively.

    Obi-Wan and Aayla have fought together many times.

    Ahsoka and Aayla have fought together.

    Ahsoka and Ki-Adi have fought together at Geonosis (I think they may have been in separate groups for most of the mission, though. Eh. They can't all be perfect connections.)

    Ahsoka and Kit have fought directly beside one another.

    Obi-Wan only owes his life to Fay's sacrifice. And at the very least she's met Qui-Gon at some point in the past and has his respect.

    You know what's honestly the biggest potential negative to my cohesion? Oppo and Qui-Gon have very different philosophies. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that it doesn't derail the cohesion, though. But there's no one on this team who would not respect Oppo, and Aayla served under him at Saleucami.

    Saba and Leia have a bit of a bond.

    Tresina really only has theoretical cohesion with Saba and Leia, but it's certainly not a negative.

    Obi-Wan is a legend in Luke's order, and Leia only grew up hearing all about him from Bail. Yes, it's a different group from a different era, but it's still a highly cohesive little group overall (10/10 Leia/Saba cohesion and assumed decent cohesion from Lobi) who would not have any problems fighting with the rest of the unit. I mean, pure speculation on my part, but I think they'd get along quite nicely quite quickly. Plus, my NJO group brings an extremely vital component to the battle, which I'll get to in a bit (hint: It's the mind meld).

    And yes. Poor ol' Acre. I was not my intention to leave anyone on an island cohesively. Cay and Totts were meant to be with us here today. But... come on. Let's not pretend that he's anything close to a cohesive negative on this squad. This is obviously theoretical cohesion, but personality-wise, the only leader/first-round talent that Arca would mesh with any better than Obi-Wan is Yoda, and that seems debatable to me. Whatever the case, from a personality/temperament standpoint, Old Ben and Acre go together like peas and carrots.

    So, the cohesion is already much, much better on my squad, and that's just in a vacuum. Then we get into the battle meditation and mind meld, which takes what's already a hyper-cohesive unit and cranks things up to 11. And yes, I realize that there's Kaan on the opposing team. I don't care. I'm going to tear his BM down to the foundation. You forgot that one of the few books I do have is Path of Destruction. ;) Oppo is much better than him, Arca is much better than him, and if they ever went into a tandem BM (a likely possibility), they go through him like wet newspaper.

    I need to get some lunch and run a couple of errands, but I need one last post to talk about that stuff. And then maybe I can respond to DE later tonight. I'll try, anyways.
     
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